MTH Products Problems ??

Got a new set of passenger cars recently.   Notice anything funky about the observation car in the photo?  Sent an email to MTH service a few days ago but have yet to receive a reply.

Jim: Better save that one!  In about 50 yrs it will be worth thousands, as a manufacturer misprint!!  Just like misprinted dollar bills.  

Is it possible to remove it and reinstall properly?

Yes,

I purchased PS-3, 4-8-4 Locomotive and had a simple derailment.  The front trucks derailed and the pilot pressure spring shorted and burned up.

I'm  thinking this short could be prevented with thin plastic washer between the trucks and the housing.

Besides having a circuit breaker on the transformer, that should of taken care of the problem.  Why can't a circuit breaker be installed on engines to prevent costly board failure etc.

They all have their issues. 

Dave:  I would be concerned about damaging the car or bending the nameplate trying to remove it.  IMHO, MTH needs to replace the car.

But hey it is spelled correctly

Missabe,

The breaker on the transformer does nothing more than protect the transformer. A simple little things called TVS can be installed at the transformer, TIU, AIU and on each of your track feeders. I would suggest that you install a TVS in each of your engines. Sometimes we are too quick to blame the manufacturer.

Maybe you should do a, Advanced Search for TVS. 

Thanks Happy Pappy,

I will do just that.

Is there a downside to the TVS?

The TIU already has a TVS installed on each channel.

There is no "downside" to using TVS's.

There is no downside to using a TVS.  In the remote chance it fails, it either fails open or shorted.  Open just means it's not there, shorted will quickly be evident when the breaker keeps opening on the transformer.

I personally recommend them in any engine you have to open for other reasons, best place to have the TVS is at the item to be protected.

Can you get them at Radio Shack?  Any specific type or #.

Here's the proper TVS at Digikey, I don't think RS has anything like this.

1.5KE36CA at Digikey

A TVS will not protect rolling stock from a short circuit, just voltage spikes. A fast acting circuit breaker or fuse in line to the track power feed is needed to supplement the built in, slower responding breakers of some transformers. TVS units should also be installed to give full protection to modern electronics equipped trains.

Larry

True Larry, but the assumption here is that we're adding protection, I'm pretty sure the OP has already added a fast acting breaker to his configuration.

Well, I had a problem with a brand new locomotive that has been recently replaced.  I thought it was my layout, then I thought the DCS, then I thought it was the locomotive.  It turned out it was the locomotive.  After reading this, I have to ask, what is a TVS???  I have a two surge protectors on my layout 1 is directly into the outlet and the other is just an extension cord.  I would hate to think that I am running my trains without the proper protection but wondering why all of the sudden MTH products are faltering???  I certainly don't want to damage anything else.  Any help or assistance is greatly appreciated. 

Thanks, John, but I neglected to reference that my reply was more to Missabe and Pappy than to the OP.

jjmmaggoo, the surge protectors that your transformers are plugged into only protect twhatever is plugged into them from mains voltage spikes. The TVS units are protecting the electronics in whatever is connected to the output of the transformer.

Larry

Just remember, a bunch of people building Lionel Trains in New Jersey, can spell in the English language, a lot better than a bunch of slave labor building Lionel and MTH trains in China on any day of the week.

hello guys and gals.........

Problem ? I have a few with lionel starter set FT diesel 1) front motor is semi-jammed 2) a hair line crack on the back side of the flange of the gear wheel on just one wheel but other 7 are ok, 3) the frame is paper thin almost too easy to bend under slight pressure even it is stamped soft steel, 4) there was oily spot all over the body ( the engine was purchased NEW in the box). I bought the engine last month and send it back after 2 days.  All those problems showed up the minute I put it on the track to test run it. The number of the engine is # 6-38253 Southern Pacific FT.  It is REALLY too bad because it is a good looking engine !!!

the woman who loves the S.F.5011,2678,2003,200

Tiffany

I was wracking my brain trying to figure out how NEW HAVEN could be lettered in reverse, not just backward. Then I noticed the the "W" in NEW looked like an "M."

Playing with the photo, I concluded that the NEW HAVEN plate was installed upside down. Strange and noteworthy.

Please send a photo and a caption to OGR.

Years ago MTH installed a Western Maryland decal upside down on the nose of a Geep. WM diehards (rivet counters; nitpickers) noticed that the "spread legs" of "W" widened as they went DOWN, and the straight legs of "M" pointed UP.

This is a good place to mention READING & NORTERN [missing "H"] hoppers, too.

The surge protection on the primary of your transformers offers no protection against the common issues that the TVS across the track or installed in locomotives is there to prevent.  As for where to get them, see my previous post with a link to the proper component.  It's connected directly across the track power, and when installed in a locomotive, directly across the frame and center rail pickups.

Those plates on the passenger cars are self stick. they fall off all the time. I am sure it could be removed and fixed the right way. Should you have to do this NO. For me it would not be that dig of a deal.

My Pennsy set I have had to fix many because they fall off. I have friends that have lost plates at shows. I haven't lost any yet.

Why send it back when you can fix it yourself.

Ditto Chipset....

A percentage of bad things will always come out of factories.

It's what the company does

to resolve the problems that gets my business..

Let me play devils advocate on TVS usage:

What is going to generate a spike so big as to knockout the electronics in an engine?

Spikes that come on the mains to be transformed down to the 18 VAC on the track are killed by the surge protector. Is power so dirty as to generate spikes beyond the lines surge protection? If so how does my computer survive or my clock radio or my TV or any electronics connected to the mains?

Aren't line surge protectors for lightning protection? I realize the TVS is set in voltage much lower and in fact maybe only twice the nominal 18VAC on the track. Would not one TVS tied to the output of the transformer be adequate?

Before I'd run around and TVS every piece of electronics on my layout I sure would like to hear the scientific explanation why it is even necessary.

Anyone?

LDBennett

PS: Not only did I add a circuit breaker to the track power but I searched until I found the fastest acting one available. In fact, I could not find one new in electronic supply houses on the internet and had to go for a used one, used in industry. The little baby cost nearly $40 USED! But it works great. No more tearing the TIU open to replace fuses with every arcs and sparks event which is common with RealTrax.

Actually, all of the brands can have problems, and I don't have a written record, plus my inventory contains a lot of MTH, but more Lionel/Lionel pals - at least in terms of locos, BUT: yes, it does seem that I and my friends have had more "problems" (electronic and mechanical) with MTH than the others, though the others have not been perfect, either.

However, the vast majority of my MTH items have been just fine.

===============

Now, to business: I'll give you $20.00 (cash money, bub!), for that "flawed" NH car...just to take it off your hands, since it's worthless.

Seriously, I'd cherish that car, if I were you. And the Southern Erie caboose

above - wish that I had one. Southern+Erie would have to be one of

the most, ah, interesting mergers ever contemplated, were it ever.

I forgot.  When I purchased my LIRR MP-15 I was staring at it and admiring it when I noticed this.  No biggie.  One of my favorite locomotives!

LDBennett, static electricity is a known killer of electronics due to a massive voltage spike. It is quite possible that were there to be a short circuit on a layout that tripped a circuit breaker, that if the breaker were to reset without the throttle being turned off first, that when the breaker resets, there would be a momentary spike in the voltage until the power draw evened out. That could possibly damage the electronics in the trains.

Larry

If my problems were as simple as name plates or even appearance things I would not be so mad but that is not even the case in any one of my MTH products. All were show stopper problems to the point that they did not function as they should have. The worse one is the RealTrax track and switches.

So the bottom line is I'm not the only one with MTH problems.

Now for the Lionel situation. Where are they assembled? I was under the impression that their products were now also made in China as well. Just because their offices are in the USA, as are MTH's, does not mean the trains are made in the USA (??). My one tinplate train is actually a Lionel with an MTH Proto 3 DCS control and it will not even run on my layout as it has a design problem that will not allow it to go through O-42 MTH switches. Maybe it makes it through FastTrack switches with out shorting out??? But it was made in China too.

LDBennett

I primary generator of spikes is collapsing magnet fields of coils generating a spike, they can reach 100's of volts at times.  Since stuff like motors many accessories have coils, if they're energized when the breaker trips or you turn off the power, you can generate spikes.

TrainLarry:

I worked as an electronic design engineer for 31 years designing digital circuits for a living where my stuff was used around the world and in space. Static charges indeed can kill electronics but it rarely if ever happens when the parts are in a circuit. Handling electronic without a ground strap is also an electronics killer. Static will rarely build up on a circuit board when it is installed but the board electronics can be killed when your body discharges its static electricity when you handle the board or components.

You might be right about power surges in some cases but the electronic in any digital control system like MTH's DCS or Lionel's equivalent get those same surges every time you turn on power to them and they survive. The same power surges occur on the track with every time you turn on your layout if you have one of these digital control systems as 18VAC appears on the track all the time. 

Thanks for the comment but I still don't accept the need for TVS's. I'm waiting some compelling reasons to use them.

LDBennett

gunrunnerjohn:

So the collapsing field of the transformer generates a voltage spike. Would that not be suppressed in the TIU? How about the collapsing field of the motors in the trains. Would not the control circuitry suppress them? All my accessories and switches are on their own Power brick. I would not think that would generate a power spike on the tracks. Besides in the AIU the relays there, if they followed common design practices I learned nearly 45 years ago, would include suppression diodes across their coils. So what collapsing magnet field is the culprit to need the TVS?

I realize not everyone's layout is wired like mine and that may be the problem for others.

Lynn.....................

LD, the culprit is the transformer. If you still have doubts hook your scope to the track with a dummy load drawing current from the transformer and short the track simulating a derailed truck and observe the spikes on your scope.

Pete

It never ceases to amaze me . How a simple request by a fellow forumite for information can turn into a free-for-all . I would hope that the original poster has the ability to look through such pettiness . 

Norton:

OK.... Who here has lost train or digital control system electronics to a power surge/spikes on the tracks during normal operation and were not protected by TVS's?

Sorry but I just have to be critical of this need for protection. Every electric device made by man (or most) have some kind of transform associated with them and power spikes are not killing electronic in an epidemic way. I need some proof that this is a real problem and not a myth that has created the need for TVS's. Yes the surge creates a spike but does not the electronics  protect themselves. If not then where is the huge number of cases of failed electronics in our train world.

gunrunnerjohn, you repair them. What have you seen? Failures due to voltage peaks or failures do to excessive current? Do you recommend the TVS just for safety's sake or based on real failures you have seen or know of.

Sorry to be so argumentative about these TVS but I want a real discussion about their use, not that people use them just because. In 31 years of designing digital circuits for the military and for space operations I have never used or been directed to use TVS's. I know of no problem with my stuff that warranted using them. My stuff went to sea, went to space, went to foreign nations, went to the US Army and has been used around the world. Not one TVS in any of it. Now, I'm 17 years out of designing and things could have changed (???).

LDBennett

Happy Pappy:

I am the original poster and I see no pettiness. Just people discussing relevant things. The focus is shifted but I got my answer to the original question: Are others having problem with MTH? The answer is yes but maybe not to the extent I have been having problems. Who knows why?

The new discussion was on the use of TVS which I find important but I agree off subject but informative. So not all shifts in theme are bad and no one is bad mouthing anyone else, as I see it. We are just exchanging viewpoints. Maybe we should open up an post on TVS???

LDBennett

I can't offer hard evidence of failures due to voltage spikes but I am sure many here can offer "hearsay" of an engine truck derailing, sparking, and subsequent failure of the electronics. DCS electronics seem to be much more sensitive to this than TMCC. QSI offered spike suppressors many years ago to deal with the problem and MTH has since included them in their TIUs. That the manufacturer recognizes spikes to be a problem is argument enough that the risk exists.

Pete

Norton:

If the TVS's are already in the TIU what's the point of putting them in every engine and duplicating them on the track as suggest by others here? I'm covered if my TIU is the latest version which it is.

LDBennett

I am not an electronics expert and can not explain the technical aspects of the spikes, the use of TVS or any of the things that kill our trains, but I am using these PSX-AC. I got them from Tony's Trains (more info and picture here). Charles Ro (on their TMCC page at the bottom), a forum sponsor, also has them. They are very fast, protect against voltage spikes, extremely fast breakers with adjustable current ranges, auto or manual reset, and many options you can use for alarming and indication. These are worth taking a look at.

If you search the OGR forums for PSX-AC, there are a few more threads about these, one contains a video showing their operation. They may be a little on the pricey side, but replacing the electronics in one of your engines would cost 4-5 times the price of just one PSX-AC. Adding a TVS here and there doesn't hurt either, a little added protection at a very low cost.

As for equipment problems, I haven't had a whole lot of them. My stuff is mostly MTH with a little Lionel and the only problems I've had so far are very minor and was able to correct them myself. I like both Lionel and MTH, but MTH has made many more items in my chosen road name than Lionel. I'm sure Lionel will catch up one of these days. I also have my eye on an Atlas engine or two, if they ever get them made. They have been announced, just not available yet. I use Atlas Track and switches and have had few problems with those also. 

I think any manufacturer's product can have a problem, no matter how good their quality control is or where they make their products. My experiences have been good and I think they all do a good job making their products. I think a lot of it is just luck of the draw. Purchasing from your LHS (if you have one) or a reputable dealer (like a forum sponsor) can make any problems you might have look a easier to handle with their help.

As I said above, I am by no means an electronics expert, but FWIW, it is my understanding you want the TVS at the closest point to the device you are trying to protect. If that is not correct, I'm sure I will be corrected shortly, but it's the way I have interpreted the many discussions her on TVS usage. I didn't know what one was a few years ago, but some very knowledgeable folks here on the forum have recommended the use of TVS's on our equipment.

In a article or two I have read on causes of electronic component failure I think the main cause was static electricity. They also explained that one spike may not kill a component, but over a period of time it weakens them so that one small last short or spike you have, that you think was nothing to worry about, ends up taking out your engine. It might not have even blown the breaker, depending on what breakers you have. This made sense to me, even though I can't explain the actual cause. I have read many posts here where something was working just fine and all of a sudden after a derailment or other minor mishap the engine is dead.

My choice is to use the best protection I can find or combinations of protection and try to avoid the problems as much as I can. That's why I like the PSX-AC's I mentioned above. I'd rather spend $45-50 and maybe a few more dollars on some extra TVS's up front as opposed to $200-300 later on having the electronics replaced in my engine, or much more if multiple engines get zapped. Seems like sensible ideas at a reasonable cost to me anyway.