Blackwater Canyon Line - March 20, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

Great to see the progress, both on the layout and with your mobility!

@Mark Boyce posted:

I now have 2 AIUs to control my switches and other things.  I connected them to the TIU and got it to recognize them through the remote.  The first photograph shows them connected temporarily.  Note I also bought a spare TIU and remote.

@Mark Boyce ohhh, Beautiful work !! So what is this in red circle?

Mark, I am glad your AIU's work and that you were also able to get a back up TIU with remote. Things are really looking good Your power sub station should look wonderful on your layout and your Yard tower turned out great! I am

I am sorry you still have pain and hope it goes away soon, I know what its like getting up at 1 or 2 AM not fun!

Guess I better chime in, For my train room area in the garage it is attached to I have a coffee pot for the morning, micro wave for some warm snacks during the winter, and a small fridge for that nice cold blue mountain Coors Light! LOL

Nice work, Mark, and glad you're feeling a bit better.

Can't wait to see the sub-station completed and installed on your layout.

Thank you, George, Steve, Leandro, Mike, Richie!!

Leandro, back in December of last year on page 41 is where I mounted the devices you circled.  They are PSX-1AC solid state circuit breakers.  They operate really fast, and have a number of current settings, taps for warning signals, and can be set to automatedly reset or shut power off until the short circuit is removed.  I do not know who on the Forum first recommended them, but there is a lively discussion about them starting on page 41 when I installed them.

Mike, two months ago I was up at any hour of the night with that nasty leg and back pain.  You may have seen the dorm refrigerator under the layout that one of our daughters no longer needed.  It has Mountain Dew for the older couple and Le Croix (yuck) for the younger couple when they come over.  Since I haven't been slaving away outside this summer, I keep my diet Pepsi under the basement stairs, as it is cool enough there for me.  Our younger daughter has been dipping into the Le Croix (did I say yuck before) each time she is over to mow grass since I shouldn't push the mower yet and the surgeon still won't let me ride the riding mower.  When I started it up to run a while on Saturday, I got on the seat and never realized how much those things vibrate.  I got back off right away and will wait until my next checkup late this month to see if he says it is okay. 

I need to get a photograph of the signal tower on the layout, not sure where it will end up though.

Mark, I am glad your doing better! As for the Le Croix it seems like a fair price to pay to get your lawn mowed! Plus you get to see your daughter!

Mike, Yes it is more than a fair price.

Here is the signal tower in position at the switch leading to the short yard under the enginehouse and wye.

Mark, fantastic work.  Just caught up from about page 50. Everything looks great. Love the lift bridges and that coal drag rivals the pennsey. Hope your mending well. Most important part of this hobby. Being healthy enough to enjoy it.  Lol. Keep up the good work.

The tower looks right at home Mark! Very nice work!

Thank you, Mike!!

Mark, what technique did you use on for the brick mortar? It looks realistic.

Dan, thank you very much!

My preferred method is to first paint the whole brick wall with the brick color with a brush using acrylic craft paint.  Next, I dilute a little of the mortar color with water and brush it on enough so it goes in all the areas between bricks.  Last, I wipe it off the brick surface leaving the mortar color between the bricks.  I have to do that pretty fast or traces of the mortar color won't come off the brick surface.

In the past, I have tried doing the opposite by painting the whole wall the mortar color, then dry brushing the brick surface with the brick color, but I didn't like the results.  I have also tried using spackling for the mortar color and wiping most of it off.  However, no matter if I dilute the spackle or not, I always ended up with too much spackle covering brick surfaces around raised window and door frames to suit me.

@E-UNIT-79 posted:

Mark, fantastic work.  Just caught up from about page 50. Everything looks great. Love the lift bridges and that coal drag rivals the pennsey. Hope your mending well. Most important part of this hobby. Being healthy enough to enjoy it.  Lol. Keep up the good work.

Thank you!  I’m amazed the pages keep adding up.  The therapists would like me to have some more time with them, and they requested insurance for more visits past tomorrow.  I have been going for 8 weeks now.  Progress has been fairly steady, but get really tired fast.  They say it can take a year, so I’m glad I’m retired.

I’ve been fiddling with some other engines and cars, but not ready for another video.

Mark, the tower is a Wow, I really like those Atlas O switch tower kits and yours looks fine.  The Western Maryland theme is beautiful. I am glad your continually working on your health, physical therapy and simply exercising working on your cool railroad. I am so happy seeing your creativity. Have a great weekend. Page 56, Wow…Happy Railroading Everyone.

Larry, thank you and thank you!  I had the HO version of the Atlas tower on my layout growing up.  The photograph angle missed a certain Western Maryland GP7 you should recall.

Mark, I’m going to usurp this thread for a moment to issue a big “Thank you!” to you and Mike! Please check out the attached video. I have much work to do, and a thread of my own to start, but I wanted to be certain to recognize your help. I also need to thank my friend Terry for his help with creating the hinge.

Chris

LVHR

Chris the bridge looks great in operation.  I’m sure I can speak for Mike that we are do glad to have helped!!  Next I’ll be looking for a train to rumble across!  It is so neat watching a train cross a bridge that is 4 or so feet above the floor!

That goes across a stairwell, so it’s a bit more than 4 feet…

Chris

LVHR

That’s about the height of my high bridge!  50 inches

@Mark Boyce posted:

Dan, thank you very much!

My preferred method is to first paint the whole brick wall with the brick color with a brush using acrylic craft paint.  Next, I dilute a little of the mortar color with water and brush it on enough so it goes in all the areas between bricks.  Last, I wipe it off the brick surface leaving the mortar color between the bricks.  I have to do that pretty fast or traces of the mortar color won't come off the brick surface.

In the past, I have tried doing the opposite by painting the whole wall the mortar color, then dry brushing the brick surface with the brick color, but I didn't like the results.  I have also tried using spackling for the mortar color and wiping most of it off.  However, no matter if I dilute the spackle or not, I always ended up with too much spackle covering brick surfaces around raised window and door frames to suit me.

Hey Mark, Jim Barrett told me once about painting brick. He said the most interesting thing, use water colors. That is the grout. I still haven't worked on the building I bought, but that is how I intend to do it when I work on it.

Dave, I can see how water colors would be a good method.  They would deposit the pigment in the mortar crevices.  Thank you for sharing that method.  I think I will try it next time and see how it works for me!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Dave, I can see how water colors would be a good method.  They would deposit the pigment in the mortar crevices.  Thank you for sharing that method.  I think I will try it next time and see how it works for me!!

Thank the late great Jim Barrett. Before he told me that, we had been joking(him more than me) with Rich. Jim was all smiles, and I just happen to buy the OGR Savings & Loan. I think I said something about the building I bought won't look like what they had built sitting there. Jim offered his advice on the water colors. I also asked about windows, he said don't use glue, use scotch tape. Simple solutions often present themselves, that's what I say. Of course it doesn't hurt to have someone give what you can only call "sage advice".

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Thank the late great Jim Barrett. Before he told me that, we had been joking(him more than me) with Rich. Jim was all smiles, and I just happen to buy the OGR Savings & Loan. I think I said something about the building I bought won't look like what they had built sitting there. Jim offered his advice on the water colors. I also asked about windows, he said don't use glue, use scotch tape. Simple solutions often present themselves, that's what I say. Of course it doesn't hurt to have someone give what you can only call "sage advice".

Dave, it often helps to comment on you are thinking.  It often brings the sage advice in response.  I hate trying to glue acetate on window frames.  No matter how little glue or how strategically placed I put it, some seems to always find it's way to the visible portion.  On my signal tower I just finished recently, I cut the acetate extra large and scotch taped it to the inside of the walls.  I really burnished it well to try to get it to stay.  I'll see after time whether it stays stuck. 

Mark - use a glue called canopy glue. It dries clear and does not craze the acetate like other adhesives. Saw a link were RC plane modelers use this stuff. For me, if I am using Testor's glue, no matter how careful I am, its all over the place - kind of like tribbles.  I even use it to fix vellum to the inside of my buildings so I get a translucent glow but cannot see inside. 

Jeff, more and more we train guys should be looking at what the RC plane modelers and military modelers are doing.   As I was alluding, I am expecting the tape to start to pull loose over time.   Canopy glue sounds like just the ticket!  I will get some.   Thank you!!

I finally got some time back at the layout.  I still have a ways to go, but am able to do some things I haven't been able to since before surgery in May.  First of all, I'll mention that I have updated my Western Maryland oxide red 2-bay hopper fleet.  I purchased a 6-car set of MTH Premier cars in the round herald scheme and a 6-car set of Lionel cars in the Speedletter scheme.  With these, I had enough that I was able to sell 6 beautiful Atlas O die cast cars between two forum members.  Those cars made for a lot more weight on my 4% grades.  I made up one group of cars with loads and one group of empties.  Here they are along with 9 other hoppers of other various road names on the high shelf.  The empties are on the foreground siding and the loads are on the downgrade mainline track.

I also changed out engines from the three Consolidations I was running before surgery.  I put this great MTH Premier Russian Decapod on the train.  I got the Decapod on one of the MTH warehouse auctions.  It is absolutely like new with everything intact and working perfectly.  It handled a 9-car train upgrade with no sweat.   There are the loads I pulled out of the 8 cars for my empties train.

The Decapod lost power on the first trip around due to a lose track pin at the lower bridge.  I fixed that easily.  Before my surgery, I discovered that engines lost power at my switches to the newest long sidings.  Those were not Ross ready, and I assume one of my solder joints was bad.  However, while checking power to refresh my memory, it dawned on me that I never connected power feeds to the right hand siding.  Oops.  I started work on that, but didn't finish.  Also, I found another DZ1000 that I sat beside the farther away of the two switches for the sidings ready for installation.

Some of you may have noticed the log car without any chain holding the logs in place.  I bought 6 of them from a forum member several months ago.  I need a couple more chains for two of the cars.  I keep forgetting to stop at the craft or sewing store to get necklace chain.  Here is how one of the two cars in need of chains looks.

After these little things I need to mount the two AIUs I bought, run the power fees and switch machines through them and set all that up.  That should keep me busy for a while.

Glad to hear that you are progressing through PT and getting back to enjoying the layout. Those coal drags will be needed for the upcoming Western PA winter.

I am delighted to hear you are improving enough to get back to the layout.  I know how frustrating it can be to have recovery stand between you and your desires.

Re, an orphaned power drop:  BTDT, as the saying goes.  Ya gotta laugh, though.

Thank you everyone who 'liked' my last post!  I appreciate everyone.

Thank you, Jay and Steve!  Jay, you are so right about the coal drags.  When I worked at Possum Point Power Station in Virginia and Mount Storm Power Station in West Virginia, there were always a long string of coal cars awaiting emptying.  At Mount Storm, I was always amazed at the long string of coal trucks awaiting unloading already when we reported for work at 6 am.  The coal pile was massive, but it was a huge station as far as generating capacity.

Steve, I did laugh at myself when I realized I had forgotten that power drop connection.  I hadn't even drilled holes in the table for the wires to pass through when I drilled for the other siding.

Bentley didn't even bark at me using the drill.  The 6-year old rescue we got in March must be getting used to things here.  He spent time with me in the train room, but I only thought of taking a photograph when he went to his water dish on the other side of the brick wall.

Well done, Mark!

Peter

Welcome back Mark! Well, you never left but glad to see you are back in the train room.

Those hoppers look great. Perfect size ratio to your layout. I'm sure you are going to find other surprises as you get the layout back up and running. That Decapod is a beauty too!

Bob

@Mark Boyce posted:

I finally got some time back at the layout.  I still have a ways to go, but am able to do some things I haven't been able to since before surgery in May.  First of all, I'll mention that I have updated my Western Maryland oxide red 2-bay hopper fleet.  I purchased a 6-car set of MTH Premier cars in the round herald scheme and a 6-car set of Lionel cars in the Speedletter scheme.  With these, I had enough that I was able to sell 6 beautiful Atlas O die cast cars between two forum members.  Those cars made for a lot more weight on my 4% grades.  I made up one group of cars with loads and one group of empties.  Here they are along with 9 other hoppers of other various road names on the high shelf.  The empties are on the foreground siding and the loads are on the downgrade mainline track.

I also changed out engines from the three Consolidations I was running before surgery.  I put this great MTH Premier Russian Decapod on the train.  I got the Decapod on one of the MTH warehouse auctions.  It is absolutely like new with everything intact and working perfectly.  It handled a 9-car train upgrade with no sweat.   There are the loads I pulled out of the 8 cars for my empties train.

The Decapod lost power on the first trip around due to a lose track pin at the lower bridge.  I fixed that easily.  Before my surgery, I discovered that engines lost power at my switches to the newest long sidings.  Those were not Ross ready, and I assume one of my solder joints was bad.  However, while checking power to refresh my memory, it dawned on me that I never connected power feeds to the right hand siding.  Oops.  I started work on that, but didn't finish.  Also, I found another DZ1000 that I sat beside the farther away of the two switches for the sidings ready for installation.

Some of you may have noticed the log car without any chain holding the logs in place.  I bought 6 of them from a forum member several months ago.  I need a couple more chains for two of the cars.  I keep forgetting to stop at the craft or sewing store to get necklace chain.  Here is how one of the two cars in need of chains looks.

After these little things I need to mount the two AIUs I bought, run the power fees and switch machines through them and set all that up.  That should keep me busy for a while.

Mark, your layout is coming along very very nicely!!! I like the look of that mountain fall backdrop. Plus very nice with the log cars!!

Good morning Mark, It sure is nice as others have already stated to see you getting back to the train room, even with little steps its still moving forward! The coal car swap out really looks great! It's also nice to see you got an engine that will pull them without needing help! Great move on the Decapod!

I am glad Bentley is getting use to the train room, after the past 3 years Tank is starting to visit me in the train room in the garage!

Thank you everyone for more likes and comments!

Peter, thank you.  Maybe the River City 3-Railers offered some inspiration! 

Bob and Mike, you are so right about the 2-bay hoppers being the right size for my layout.  That is why I like nothing larger than 40- boxcars and reefers.  Bob and Tom, the log cars are a bit long, but I couldn't pass them up.  They all have WVP&P Co. lettering (West Virginia Pulp and Paper Co. ie Westvaco) which reminded me of the recently closed paper mill in Luke Maryland on the opposite downgrade from the Blackwater Canyon on the CSX (Western Maryland Rwy.)  I do have about a half dozen traditional sized dumping log cars from the '90s that I can run if I want to look more to size.  Also from a forum member.  (The stuff one accumulates)   

Tom, I bought the backdrop from a forum member and reconfigured it to fit my layout.  It needs some additional painting on each end of the layout before I start putting in scenery.

Bob and Mike, I had a Western Maryland Russian Decapod in HO and sold it with he rest of the HO engines and cars.  I have wanted an MTH Premier Russian Decapod but never saw a used one in my price range.  I made out well bidding on the complete one MTH offered through Cabin Fever Auctions.    I like the tall stack and domes on the Russian Decapods, and the small diameter boiler is a nice contrast to the hefty H9 Consolidations.

I'm glad Tank is back to visiting you in the train room some!! 

Here’s something you might find interesting Mark.

Jay, I do find that interesting!!  I knew they were making good progress with #1309, but had not seen a prediction of when it may be service ready!  We will have to go down to the WMSR next year once it is running.  We were there when we lived in Virginia and again when we lived in Keyser, West Virginia; but have never been back since we moved back to Butler in 1996!  Boy raising two daughters who aren't interested in trains sure got in the way of train activities! 

I have a model of the H9 #734, GP30 #501, and 6 WMSR passenger cars.  I hope they come out with a #1309.  I will have to start saving my pennies now! 

@Mark Boyce posted:

I finally got some time back at the layout.  I still have a ways to go, but am able to do some things I haven't been able to since before surgery in May.  First of all, I'll mention that I have updated my Western Maryland oxide red 2-bay hopper fleet.  I purchased a 6-car set of MTH Premier cars in the round herald scheme and a 6-car set of Lionel cars in the Speedletter scheme.  With these, I had enough that I was able to sell 6 beautiful Atlas O die cast cars between two forum members.  Those cars made for a lot more weight on my 4% grades.  I made up one group of cars with loads and one group of empties.  Here they are along with 9 other hoppers of other various road names on the high shelf.  The empties are on the foreground siding and the loads are on the downgrade mainline track.

I also changed out engines from the three Consolidations I was running before surgery.  I put this great MTH Premier Russian Decapod on the train.  I got the Decapod on one of the MTH warehouse auctions.  It is absolutely like new with everything intact and working perfectly.  It handled a 9-car train upgrade with no sweat.   There are the loads I pulled out of the 8 cars for my empties train.

The Decapod lost power on the first trip around due to a lose track pin at the lower bridge.  I fixed that easily.  Before my surgery, I discovered that engines lost power at my switches to the newest long sidings.  Those were not Ross ready, and I assume one of my solder joints was bad.  However, while checking power to refresh my memory, it dawned on me that I never connected power feeds to the right hand siding.  Oops.  I started work on that, but didn't finish.  Also, I found another DZ1000 that I sat beside the farther away of the two switches for the sidings ready for installation.

Some of you may have noticed the log car without any chain holding the logs in place.  I bought 6 of them from a forum member several months ago.  I need a couple more chains for two of the cars.  I keep forgetting to stop at the craft or sewing store to get necklace chain.  Here is how one of the two cars in need of chains looks.

After these little things I need to mount the two AIUs I bought, run the power fees and switch machines through them and set all that up.  That should keep me busy for a while.

Going with a theme; I love it. I'd like one of those Russian Decapods, but wouldn't fit with my Canadian theme.

Keith, Yes I follow a theme for the most part.  Western Maryland, but I do have some B&O since I grew up along the B&O.  I do have one PRR GG1 that I can't run on the layout because it takes 072 curves, but I think it is a classic.  I also have a NYC J1e Hudson because I think it's a classic also.  It can run on the layout if I want to throw theme to the wind.  That's about it.

I have seen a list of the railroads that bought the Decapods that had been ordered by Imperial Russia and cancelled after the revolution, and I never saw a Canadian railroad in the bunch.

Mark,

Glad you are feeling well enough to get back on the layout!  It looks great as always.  The coal drag with the decapod definately looks sharp.  Keep up the good work!

Michael

Thank you, Michael!!

Everyone.  I got that pesky siding wired in, so it has power.  I identified the missing connections on the two switches for the sidings sidings I mentioned.  I'll work on that another day.

Progress. Glad to see you back and gradually building up steam.

Thank you, Bill!!  The layout is high enough and narrow enough, I can do most wiring sitting on a stool and bending over a little.  After 3 weeks of not doing anything after surgery, One of the exercises from my first PT was to sit and bend like tieing my shoe.  I can still do it but for short spurts now without pain.  👍🏻

Best wishes on the recovery, Mark.

I find your utilization of space better executed than most with twice the footprint.  The limiting of equipment size and weight produces optimum usage of every inch of track plan.  What you have successfully wedged into 11 X 11 should serve as an excellent example to all wanting maximum 3 rail enjoyment in a compact space.

WTG, Mark!

Bruce

Thank you very much, Bruce!!  It has been a challenge, but worth it.

I was able to get my engines to run nicely over the two switches leading to the long sidings.  The only problem was that I had forgotten to make a power connection to the left hand siding.  That was quickly remedied, but I didn't have a chance to test it out until last evening.

Now it's time to get on to the next project.  Should I wire in the DZ1000 switch machines or the power drops to the AIUs first?  I'm thinking the power drops, so I can easily turn off power to sidings that are holding engines not in use, instead of having to lift wires.  I can do all that seated on my rolling stool, whereas I need to bend under the layout to get wires connected to some of the DZ1000 drops.  That would let my lower back get a little better first.

Mark, looks great and I am glad you were able to get your siding wired and working! I don't have an AIU so I can't help you there!

Mark, are you going to use the AIU to control track power to your sidings? I have been considering going this route instead of using traditional toggle switches.  My understanding is you should put (if I remember correctly) a 4 amp fuse in line to protect the AIU.  I think I read somewhere older AIU's were capable of controlling possibly 10 amps.  Correct me if this info is incorrect. 

Michael

Thank you, Mike!

Michael, Since I was planning to use AIUs to control the switches, I decided to use the other ports to control power feeds.  I bought toggle switches to make a traditional panel to turn track power feeds off.  Then I realized I actually have two operating areas, the main one in the center of the layout, and another in the aisle outside the lift-up bridges.  What if I wanted to be close to my enginehouse or sidings that are along the aisle and all my toggle switches were on the other side.  I could have used two way switches, but decided if I had the DCS remote in hand, I might as well use the AIU ports.

I do not recall reading about in-line fuses when I read up on the AIUs last winter, but most of what I read has been overwritten.    I put TVSs across every track feed at the track end.  Yes, in-line fuses make sense.  I will have to go back and see what is recommended.  Thank you for asking the question.

I'm pretty sure the AIU ACC ports are only rated for 4 amps. that's probably enough for  an engine or two, but certainly not enough for very many incandescent passenger cars; absolutely not enough for a derailment or short.

Thank you, John!  I was just looking this up in Barry's book.  He recommends the 4-amp in-line fuse like Michael wrote.  Barry says you can have the AIU control an external relay that does the actual switching to the track.  I have LEDs to install in my passenger cars and caboose. 

Mark,

I was going to suggest using the AIU to operate external relays, but apparently Barry beat me to it!  You will need a power source to drive the relays.  Installing LEDs in your passenger equipment will definitely cut the current draw.

Chris

LVHR

Chris, Thank you very much!!  Yes, I had the page in Barry's book bookmarked, but totally forgot about the need for the relays.  I have plenty of power supplies, so that won't be the issue.  I won't be ready for relays until I get them ordered and they arrive anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Mark, what relays and power source will you use?  I haven't decided yet if I am going to go this route or use traditional toggle switches.

Michael

Michael, I’ll have to work on that.  I didn’t get to look at relays at all.  Yes, I know.  I already have the toggle switches.  I’ll have to look at it to think which is worth the trouble.  😄

Mark if you are working with DCS and need relay info, call or e-mail me. We are doing relays with AIUs for both turnouts and track power now and can probably tell you what you need and send you a couple of wired relays to start with.

Thanks to Stan a few years ago, we have almost “mastered” the AIU/relay job.

We just reordered a month ago and got a bunch.

I think that you have our information.

Congrats on getting the track wiring completed!  Wiring is the one thing I dislike the most about the hobby - ballasting is a close second! lol

-Greg

Thank you Greg and Bill!

Bill, I would be glad to hear from you on how you are doing it.  Thank you.  I'll send you an email.

Hi Mark,

I'm sure you are receiving lots of good advice on switching track power with an AIU. This is my plan for my layout as well.

I bought some of these Arduino relays and used a couple in the control wiring for my lift table. Power wiring on the left, low voltage control on the right. The "IN" pin controls the relay contacts by simply grounding it.  The AIU would see milliamps in 5vdc at most if the relay power were switched through the AIU, or simply run a ground wire through the AIU contacts to IN. I hope this gives you some ideas.

Hi Mark,

Great to hear you are doing good enough to get back to your layout! Fantastic News!

I have been working on the electronics side of my build to try and get as much done before the plywood and homosote block access from the top. My plan which is only in the planning stage is to have AIU interface with a ESP8266 which acts and programs like an arduino, however has WIFI and communications abilities. The esp8266 that is connected to AIU (and located in same area as AIU)  will take those commands for switches or track power, command the esp8266 which in turn will send wireless to a remote esp8266 with a relay and the relay will control track power or turnout switching. I have a prototype working without AIU, however AIU is only being used for DCS interface and acts like a toggle switch which my prototype uses successfully. This eliminates wiring from control section to turnouts and also it feeds back the switch position and track power status. I also have it set up for block detection. esp/relay board is around 4 bucks on Aliexpress . This will take sometime for me to complete, however it might be worth the wait if you do not want to have a ton of control wires to every switch and block.

Dan and John, thank you!  I’m at my 32nd and last PT visit with the heating pads and electrodes almost done.  I’ll reply further after I’m home.

I had never hard of Arduino until 2 or 3 years ago here on the Forum.  I tried to follow along on a couple threads, and got totally lost.    Bill said he would send me some documentation on how he is doing his AIUs and relays next week, so I will look at that and see what else comes up.  I'm open to any idea, and won't be getting to any of it very fast.  Since I can get around better now, I still have to get stronger and get some things done before winter.

This afternoon, I worked on installing a grass/leaf catcher for the back of my riding mower.  The mower is 10 years old, and I just got the catcher at Lowes last Saturday.  Of course, it doesn't exactly fit my older model, but is very close.  I had to drill 4 holes into the back of the mower to mount the rack that holds the two bags that catch the leaves.  I still have to modify the plastic chute where it attaches to the deck, but figured out what I need to do on Wednesday.  That should make leaf gathering easier than in the past.

Mark, this evening I was leafing through Jim Barrett’s book. Chapter 44, ,”Control Layout Lighting with an AIU”, p. 259-264 discusses these issues; including switches. This segment of the hobby makes me feel like I’m taking a math course. No matter how hard I try my brain starts to short out. That’s why I will have to remain in PW mode.

Jay, you have a good point.  I picked up on command control in 2012 to make things easier.  😉  I have not bought Jim’s book.  I’m trying to make this easy.  It may be not that easy.  😄

Glad you're moving better Mark. Odd jobs like the grass catcher are great therapy as well, mentally and physically. I painted rooms after neck and shoulder fixes. That Miaggi guy was on to something.

Don't let the "arduino" name trip you up. It is simply a set of contacts rated for AC power we use and has a 5 vdc control over the contacts.

How is AREDUINO pronounced?

@Tom Tee posted:

How is AREDUINO pronounced?

Arduino (/ɑːrˈdwiːnoʊ/)

@Mark Boyce posted:

Jay, you have a good point.  I picked up on command control in 2012 to make things easier.  😉  I have not bought Jim’s book.  I’m trying to make this easy.  It may be not that easy.  😄

Once you figure it out Mark, let us know.......

Bob

Yes Arduino sort of rhymes with my late father-in-law's make believe friend, Guido.    As in "I'll get Guido to squish your face," he would jokingly say.

Thank you for the encouragement, Dan!  If one retired guy can figure it out, another retired guy should be able to.

Bob, on the other hand, you may be waiting a long time. 

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

Glad you're moving better Mark. Odd jobs like the grass catcher are great therapy as well, mentally and physically. I painted rooms after neck and shoulder fixes. That Miaggi guy was on to something.

Don't let the "Arduino" name trip you up. It is simply a set of contacts rated for AC power we use and has a 5 vdc control over the contacts.

Dan, I forgot to thank you for being glad I am moving around better.  You are right about Miyagi.  My therapists had told me to try things a little at a time, so I have been doing that.  They did give me exercises to continue with, but doing more like you said will help mentally as well as physically.  Thank you!

It has been over a month since I last posted here.  I have been prewiring AIUs to turn on and off each track block.  I chose to follow the method Bill Webb is using.  Bill gave me a bunch of photographs and a written description of how he is doing it.  I think I have it done right.    Since the AIU relays can't handle the amperage on track sections, Bill used circuit boards with relays that can handle the amperage.  The handheld will select one of the accessory channels on an AIU, that contact closure will operate one of the blue relays which will close the circuit to apply power to a track section.  That way I can easily turn off power to sidings if I want to leave an engine set there, and it can also be an aid in troubleshooting short or open circuits.

I have everything wired up except the red and black wires going to the mainline blocks.  The red wires will connect to the relay board that has red wires on on side of each contact and the black wires will connect to the black side of the MTH terminal block.  Once I move wires, I can move the TIU Fixed Output 1 to the MTH terminal block in the top of the photograph, and should be in business.  I'll keep my fingers crossed.  Up until now everything on the original setup has been left intact so I can still run trains.  Once I get that working, I'll finish prewiring the other two AIUs for the sidings which are powered by Fixed Output 2.  DZ1000 connections will come later.

Mark,

Your wiring looks fantastic!  I love the neat job and how all the wires flow.  Glad you are feeling good enough to get back to more "normal" layout work.  I am curious about your relay setup for switching track power.  I might have to get the info from you on what you used and how it is wired up.  I still haven't decided if I want to use the AIU's to switch track power or just use convetional toggle switches.  Are you only switching power on sidings or on sections of your mainline as well?  Looks like a neat setup and really well executed.  Keep up the great work!

Michael

That's a beautiful job ya done there Mark! I never thought of using an AIU like this. I like the idea!

Bill and Michael, Thank you.  I don't work well with the thinner gauge wire anymore.  I think that is #18, but I have had the spools for 35 years, and the labels are gone, and I didn't bother putting the wire under the magnifier. Yes that #14 wire really does make for some nice curves.  You have to let the first run find it's own way, then all the rest follow along.

I knew folks were using the AIU accessory ports to power track blocks, but didn't know how they were doing it.  Bill Webb offered to show me what he was doing, and it made sense.  I have 15 blocks for sidings, and only 7 for the mainline.  I decided I might as well setup the whole mainline the same way to isolate troubles.  I had bought toggle switches to make a panel, but decided since I was going to use AIUs to control the switches, I might as well try them to power blocks as well.  There is one caveat; both sides of my power boards are filling up quickly.  I still haven't given any thought to building lighting, uncouplers, etc. 

How come my wiring doesn't look like Mark's?

Nice work Mark. If I ever go to a full DCS system, this is a nice clean way to do power control.

Keep making progress.

Bob

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

How come my wiring doesn't look like Mark's?

LOL.  Thank you Dennis!

Thank you, Bob!

Beautiful work, Mark!

Dennis:  mine looks more like yours than Mark's.  I suspect a lot of us are in that boat . . . uh, nest.

Thank you, Steve!  I learned a lot of wiring tricks working as a technician on controls at the power company.  Many don’t come into play on a layout, but some do. Their electricians produced nothing less than works of art.  When I was laid off and went to the telephone company at the age of 40, I was appalled at what some of our wiring was like at customer locations.  Some customers had pitiful wiring as well.  I’ve seen computer rooms that look not far from Dennis’ ‘abstract art’.  

Neat wiring, tagging, and documentation up front makes troubleshooting much easier.  I have some more tagging to do plus make new drawings for this upgrade.

Mark, that looks great! Do you still have to use the Gunrunner John's watch dog thing with the AIU's?

Mark get out those red and green pencils for the wiring schematic updates. LOL

Mark, you just have to sort your AIU's.  Some of them had 10A relays, others have 5A relays.  We had a long discussion about this some time back on OGR.  I was surprised to find different ratings on the relays, and I certainly don't understand why they want with 5A relays.

The electrical panel looks great!  It's ironic - I had an electrician at the house today to troubleshoot why my oven was throwing a breaker.  Turned out to be a loose connection in the main power box - easy fix.   While at the house he did a quick inspection and of course came across the layout under construction in the basement.   I was very happy to hear he gave my electrical panel and wire mapping a thumbs up.  Ended up spending a good 5 minutes asking me about trains as he had them as a kid. 

-Greg

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mark, you just have to sort your AIU's.  Some of them had 10A relays, others have 5A relays.  We had a long discussion about this some time back on OGR.  I was surprised to find different ratings on the relays, and I certainly don't understand why they want with 5A relays.

John, I missed that discussion.  I thought they all had 5 amp relays.  I have two brand new just delivered last month, one new old stock last winter, and one used AIU.  I am guessing from what you just wrote, the used one is probably the only one that could have 10 volt relays.  Thank you.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you Mike, Rich, and Greg!

Rich, the old red and green!  I sure used them a lot at the power company.  The engineers at headquarters wouldn’t even do a field check, they would just send out the prints for the final job.  Besides correcting errors, we as field engineers had to figure out how to prewire for outages to fit the new in with the old.  Sometimes we would do several changes for several outages, since an outage couldn’t last overnight.  I did lots of sharpening red and green pencils before we were done and I could send the as-builts back to engineering.  They were a higher pay grade, but I always wondered if they had the easier job than we did!  😄

Mike, the Watchdog is going to go on the other side of the board with the TIU and TMCC base.  I have two, so I’ll put it in to cover the bases.

I don't know when they switched from 10A to 5A relays in the AIU's but I remember on one of the Rich Batista DVD's that he used the AIU's only to switch track power.  After reading up on it I learned he had an older version AIU.

Michael

Michael, I have Rich’s DVDs, but I watched them before I learned about some AIUs having 5 amp relays.  Oh well, I’m all set if the older one is a 10 amp and I have to replace it with a newer one.  Though I can’t recall seeing anyone having trouble with one not working.

Mark, 5A, not 5V.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mark, 5A, not 5V.

Thank you, John!  I correct my mistake above, but too late to get an A on the test!  😄

Mark, your wiring is a work of art!. I don't have no problem with the electrical I understand it somewhat, but it's the neatness that kills me every time.

Mark you’ve come a long long way, page 58, and there’s a ton of very useful information for many beginners and even seasoned modelers on your layout Journey. Your wiring is enviable snd the Western Maryland paint schemes are beautiful. Your layout is a Wow!  Happy Railroading Everyone

Nice, neat work there Mark!  Looks like Bob's instructions were for the same kind of set up I discussed a while ago with an external relay. Regardless of whether the AIU relays are 5 or 10 amps I would still do it with the external relays as you have done if I was going to switch power. Let the AIU switch low voltage control signals and let the external relays handle the high voltage side. It is much easier to replace one of those relays than a AIU if the need ever arises.

Thank you E-Unit-79, Larry, and Dan!!

E-Unit, Neatness in wiring can be thought of like washing steam and diesel engines.  Dirty engines move the same load as clean ones, so not so neat wiring moves electrons just like neat wiring.  Or on another note; my sloppy carpentry is just as solid as a cabinet maker's. 

Larry, I never thought this topic would be going on for 58 pages.  There is a lot of material in an OGR Forum page when compared to some other venues.  Thank you for your encouragement.

Dan, You are right it is easier and less expensive to replace those relays than an AIU.  I now have some spares of everything, just in case replacements aren't easily available when needed.

Mark, you need to put a frame around your power station and display it on the wall.   Too bad it will be hidden under the table!!!    Well done!

Cheers, Dave

Dave, Thank you!  It's like some modelers who have the tools and skills to build cabinet grade benchwork, then cover it up with scenery. 

Here is a puzzler that I ran into Saturday, and Bill Webb helped me solve Sunday.  When I setup accessory ports in the remote, I could get the relay in the AIU to operate properly, but the blue relay would not operate.  I checked voltage and polarity for the 12 volt DC to both the AIU and relay board, and it was correct.  Bill wrote me a list of questions and the first was the problem.  He asked if I was using the same wall wart for both the AIU and the relay board.  I was not, I used two identical 12 volt DC 500 ma wall warts, one for the AIUs and one for the relay boards.  When I powered everything from the same wall wart (either one, I checked) the AIU relay operated, the blue relay operated, the red light came on beside the relay, and I had power to the track on that block.  Bill said he learned this by accident.  When installing an additional relay board a distance away from his main board, he put in a second wall wart, and it wouldn't work.

I'm still scratching my head as to why it made a difference.  Oh well.    43 years working in electronics taught me that some things are for the higher thinking engineers.  I just accept what works and duplicate it on every similar job.  I'm retired now; I won't worry my brain.  As kids in high school used to say, "Ask me if I care?" 

I finished wiring the AIU accessory ports to control power to individual track blocks.  I also programmed the remote to select each of the 7 mainline blocks, 13 sidings, and 2 blocks on my Ceiling Central Railroad in the next room.  This photograph shows the completed wiring and the red LEDs show each relay that is picked up applying power to the tracks.  I should say initially finished wiring.  I do have to trouble shoot two blocks that I must have crossed up wires.  The AIU relay picks up, but not the replay applying power.

This is the other side of the board where I still have to install Gunrunnerjohn's Watchdog generators.

After I get those two items taken care of, I will start wiring in the DZ1000 switch machines to the AIUs.  Thank you for taking a look.

Never thought I was be excited to see wiring organization but it's easy to be interested when it looks this good!

Nice progress Mark!

Wow Mark, that was a very productive day. Congratulations on the gigantic accomplishment of finishing the wiring! That has to be a great feeling. How is your back holding up?

    I too find it hard to get excited about wiring but can sure appreciate the good work involved there.

    My  layout doesn't have anywhere near the amount of wires you have and mine is a jumbled rats nest below the surface.

    I may have to attend to that one of these days.

Thank you, Bill, Jay, and fast freight!  I don’t get excited about wiring either, but at least something rubbed off in 43 years in electronics.  

Jay, the last couple days, I was just moving wires from one side of the board to the other. I did have to break out the wire stretcher for a few of them.  😉  My back is actually feeling pretty good, and the pinched sciatic nerve has been pretty good too.  I did wake up about 1:00 last night with a back ache and had to stay up a while, then like always I can sleep until morning.   Last night may have been because I rode my bicycle for 15 minutes yesterday.  Who knows!  😄  Thank you for asking!

fast freight, I do have a bit of a tangle of wires behind the board because of moving wires from one side to the other.  It is at the one spot on the layout that is a bit of a reach underneath.  A rats nest can appear almost by manic.

Wow fantastic work Mark! Like the relay setup being controlled by the AIU's how many DZ-1000's do you need to hook up and are they hard wired from turnout to control relay?

What an accomplishment for sure getting all that done after all you have been through!

Very nice Mark. I can relate- In my contracting days, I always took great care and pride in organizing all of the wires in a panel board, motor controller, etc. Only to have to put the covers on, never to be seen again.

At least I knew how I left it for the next guy who was in the gear.

Glad to hear your back is holding up too.

Bob

Bob, Yes, it is a good feeling knowing I left something in good shape for the next guy.  Occasionally the next guy was me!! 

Thank you for my back's sake!

I discovered that my wiring errors weren't wiring errors at all.  After checking all my wiring and finding it right, I deleted all the accessories on the remote for AIU 1 and reloaded them.  All of them worked this go round.  Second, I discovered I forgot to program one of the tracks on AIU 3, so once I added that, all is swell!!

I also plugged in the Gunrunnerjohn Watchdog Generator on my TIU fixed output 2 for my sidings.  When I powered all the sidings, none of the engines started up on applying power just as John designed it for.  I was now able to start each engine with the remote individually.  Hooray!!

Thank you John, and Thank you Bill Webb for the AIU assistance!!

Congratulations Mark, that's a real milestone.  Glad you're feeling up to working on your layout again.  I really enjoy reading your updates and would say keep up the good work, but I know you will.

Thank you, Steve!!  Wiring layouts is old hat, but Getting more use out of the DCS system than just simple engine control was a milestone.  The back does pretty good.  That is even considering I am now off the medication they first gave me when the sciatic nerve was pinched by the messed up lower back almost 3 years ago.  I do still need a pillow on my padded stool to work on the layout. 

Mark, your wiring skills are outstanding! I wish I had them, but its funny I know just enough to get in trouble! LOL Maybe I will go back and dress it up once I am sure everything works! It will never be a clean as your, but I can always dream about it!

I am glad you got your AIU's in line to play well with others! I think I will stick with my little control board. I think for me trying to learn AIU's could really push me over the edge! LOL

Mike, thank you very much!  Even after 45 years in electronics, I have to rely on others who have done it.  Bill Webb was invaluable in wiring out the AIUs and higher amperage relays.  GunrunnerJohn’s Watchdog Generator is beyond my understanding.  Somehow, I have a hard time thinking outside the box.  I was in the right jobs, implementing and fixing schemes that others had developed.  Even more so, I wonder why MTH didn’t address the watchdog issue long ago.  There has to be a logical reason; I am not knocking MTH on this question.  I still have to locate a second Remote Commander to put the second Watchdog on the other fixed output.

Two reasons I went with the AIU.  

One, I wanted to control track power and track switches from either side of the lift up bridges.  With a traditional control panel, I would have had to think through two-way switches throughout.

Two, I already had invested in a TIU and remote and was using only a small part of the capability.  I had already bought a spare TIU and two spare remotes.  I now have a spare AIU as well.  I sold a couple engines to collect the funds for the spares.

Well I am looking for a remote commander also but due to funds it will have to wait. I am in the process of selling off some stuff so I can buy a steam engine for my layout. After the last one I bought that lasted 2 minutes before the board burned up I am not hooked on getting one. I still have to sell a couple more things and I will be there!

Mike, I recall that engine.  I would consider that a fluke!!  What kind of engine are you looking for?  I can keep an eye out for you.

I know you mentioned the cost of shipping issue with the Greyhound Station.  I got burnt on shipping from here in Northwestern Pennsylvania to California on my Menards American Power Station.  After I had the station, I realized it was too large for any space I would put it, so decided to get the commercial backdrop of a brick coal fired power station like I frequented decades ago.  I offered to pay the shipping to seal the deal, and the oversize box going cross country caused me to net about $25 on the sale.  It was my fault.  I was naïve.  I claim full responsibility, and don't even remember who I sold it to.

Hi Mark, I am getting a Union Pacific 4-8-4, already lined up with a forum member. All I have to do is come up with the cash! LOL

Excellent choice, Mike!!

Nice looking wiring and installation, Mark - very professional looking.

Thank you, Richie!  I just started on the DZ-1000 project this evening.

I didn't get a terminal block I need yet, so I wired two DZ1000 switch machines making some connections with alligator clip jumpers to make sure I was doing it right to control them with the DCS remote.  I had success on the second try.  However, as I was going to switches to make the selection on the remote, I started questioning my ability to scroll through the future 12 switches while operating a running train.  My reaction time is pretty poor.  I decided to wire out one of the Z-stuff push buttons to the front edge of the layout and try the push button.  Here is my quick mockup for a passing siding switch located right at the backdrop.

I found that I could react faster to locate the pushbutton than select it on the remote.  So, do I wire up all of them to push buttons, or wire for both push buttons and to the AIUs to use the remotes?? 

I did make one observation that instead of selecting each track section that I want powered, to follow this sequence.

1. Power the TIU and AIUs, but don't apply power from the Z4000.

2.  Select all track sections.

3. Turn off those that I don't want power on.

4. Apply power to the selected tracks with the Z4000.

Since we had trick or treat, we decided I would take Bentley for a ride in the car so he doesn't bark his head off the whole time kids are coming to the front stoop.  Here is his costume he wore as we drove down the road.  Argh!

Mark

Your observation is what I suspect for myself. I'm going hard wired switch control.

Mark, I generally avoid commenting on most things DCS since I don't have any first-hand experience using it.

Oh well, here goes anyway.  Personally I prefer dedicated switches, but I do have a few thoughts for you to consider.  Can Routes be programmed in DCS to throw multiple switches for that route with a single button push on the Handheld remote?  If so I would think wiring for AIU may be advantageous for that. Also if you envision any scenarios operating the trains where you may be out of reach of a dedicated push button, you'd have the remote option.

However, if wiring both ways are possible, that may be optimal.

BTW, cute... umm I mean ferrocious costume.

Mark- I'm with SteveH. For operations I would prefer a hands on approach. But for the times I want to sit back with a glass of single malt and watch 'em run, the routes function of DCS is pretty cool.

Bob

Cute pooch too!

Thank you Keith, Steve, and Bob.  Someone else sent me a text suggesting the routes!  I saw a Rich Melvin video from the early days of DCS, and he showed about Routes.  After a half dozen years, I had forgotten about that capability.  That does change things.

Yes Keith, the local push button is the way I originally thought I would go.  Now that I have all these AIU ports, I thought why not use them.

I do not have a WIU.  The reader who texted showed a photograph of his phone or tablet saying it’s east to setup there.  Good suggestion.  Right now I need to but another terminal block to power all these DZ1000s.  😄

Mark, I have a mix of panel control, ground throws and 1 branchline with sidings that’s exclusively on a AIU. It’s location negated the use of ground throws and no matter where you put a control panel. It would require a good walk at times. I can now be near the train and control sidings and such through the remote. Rather than walking back to the panel. As far as throwing turnouts while trying to run a train. Forget it. I can’t navigate the remote that quickly either. I stop the train and throw the turnout. Stop again and throw it back the other way. More realistic and will add some length to your session.

I would vote push button because I think having the button in the same spot all the time becomes muscle memory. Also, if you ever need to change control systems (to anything, conventional, DCC, Legacy, BlueRail...whatever), you already got the switches wired.

Having remotely controlled switches would be nice for when I want to kick back and relax. But we'll see what happens.

My dog is exhausted from "guarding" the house all night from the very threatening kids running around asking for candy haha

@Mark Boyce posted:

I found that I could react faster to locate the pushbutton than select it on the remote.

I have the same issue with legacy.  The remote  'locate/select' reaction time thingy is compounded as my eyes continually dart back and forth from the trains to the remote.  I finally have been able to find the time to run  the trains recently and thankfully (to Bill's point)  I no longer have to look at the control panel when I throw the switches.  Maybe I need a half dozen remotes so I can run the trains by feel and keep my eyes on the action.   Routes are coming next year for me but will be primarily for display.

I'll add a vote for wiring the buttons close to switch locations and also wiring the switches to the AIU. It is easy to do and gives you the most flexibility.

Thank you, Dave, Bill, Dennis, Dan! 

Dave, your comment about throwing turnouts while the train is moving makes me feel better.

I was thinking of putting the pushbuttons on the fascia in front of each switch, so it is right there where I am following the train.  I have no control panel, per se.  I think the remote acts as the control panel.  I think Dan's proposal is what I will do.  Then I can do whichever way I want.

Thinking about routes, I'm not sure which way I would do them.  However, if the switches are wired to the AIUs, then it would be easy to add them as I find a need for them.

Bentley looks cute, but since we rescued him as a 6-year old, he has issues.  He is afraid of people and big dogs.  So he barks like mad from a safe distance.  He got used to us pretty quickly, though.

Here's my life experience regarding turnout control.  I have 50+ turnouts with the levers/buttons located all together side by side on two control panels.  AIU's are located just below the control panels but are not yet wired to the turnouts.  For me, the big problem is which control operates which turnout ?  And, can I figure all that out when trains are on the move.   I envision DCS routes as my  savior.   I have no room for a track plan with graphically located turnout controls.  I like being in one spot and watching the trains change routes.   For me, flipping turnouts using the DCS remote or App is more cumbersome then hitting control panel levers/buttons.   In the end, I like having the option of using either levers/buttons at a single location or AIU turnout control.

In my setup, all my DCS components are located below my control panel.  Easy for servicing.   As a result, long turnout control wiring is routed to the control panels for lever/button/AIU control.  This configuration also gives me IMO more options in the future.

It's just the way I'm wired.  At work, I always did the larger effort when I could have satisfied with a smaller effort.  The larger efforts have future payback especially when asked to do the impossible and permitted the rabbit to appear from the hat.

Steve, more effort now will give me the best of each type of control.

@Mark Boyce  Mark your post regarding popped into my in box just now - 23 hours late - not bad considering it has been 2 to 3 days recently.

I have both DZ1000 and DZ2500 switch machines. All run though my operating panel using push buttons. Some I have double wired such as for the Ross crossover and other paired switches where they make up through sidings,  so I do not have to remember to separately switch the entry and exit turnouts. (One pushbutton is wired to control 2 or more switches. The switch motors have to be the same because wiring is different for the two.)

I find neither are 100% reliable. When this happens its a for sure derailment, some worse than others. Personally using the TIUs to switch would be nice for pre-programmed routes. Otherwise I would stick with either panel mounted or at the switches. The DZ2500 is more problematic in that there is no way to throw the switch without power unlike the DZ1000.

As much as I like the app for operating engines, I don't think I could run engines trying to find the code for a switch in real time. I can barely do that with mine given the modest size of my layout and the length of trains I like to run.  A handheld with separate function buttons would work better. As it is I have to swipe screens to move from operating to using the sound functions.     

But we all like to operate differently, so choice is a good thing.

Dennis, I like it!!  That dog bumps his head on the last post every time!  I can feel his frustration.

Jeff, you are the second person I have heard from in the last couple days who had the same problem with messages coming in late. 

I got thinking about it after writing my last post.  I really don't have Much of any routes to take.  I certainly don't have any crossovers like you.  I tried the WIU when it first came out, and eventually sold it.  I can see it would be easier to program names of switches, routes, accessories with the smart phone than it is with the handheld remote, but I can imagine myself having the same problem as you have scrolling past what I want.  I'll still probably wire them out to the AIUs, but I may end up using the pushbuttons.

I did finally order an MTH 12-port terminal block to run the power connections for the switches.  It should be here later in the week.

Yup... that dog and I have lot in common.  I just ripped out my 2.2% grade great stone viaduct... replacing it with a 3.2% (ouch) grade to an elevated reversing loop.  Hopefully, I get to scenery and structures this decade.  1. finish project.  2. rip apart.  Repeat step 1. & step 2. 

Dennis, I agree.  My grades are approximately 4%.  I can’t say how many times I tore apart and rebuilt the grade on the K-Line trestle bents and the top and bottom of the grades for a smoother transition from level.  I haven’t even really started scenery yet.  🤷‍♂️

Oh... the grade transitions ...the endless shaving off 1/128ths to achieve something acceptable.  At least I figured out today that the RF16 Sharknose is the loco that needs the most forgiving transition.

I'd have a race with you on the scenery but I already have so many losses scratched into my belt that I had to switch to suspenders.  Maybe we could beat Gunrunner on the scenery... he's being a little pokey!

@Mark Boyce posted:

As I have mentioned on other topics, our last daughter married in September, leaving us empty nesters.  Just a week ago, I helped her and our son-in-law move the rest of her things out of an 11’ 6” x 11’ 4” basement room she had been using as an art studio.  This will be my layout room.  While I have built layouts in HO and N scales, this will be my first in O gauge, not counting the temporary 4x8 temporary layout that has our Christmas theme and my Ceiling Central RR in a similarly sized room diagonal to the new layout room.

I have hesitated starting a topic of my own layout design as I have been struggling getting some thoughts down on what I am looking to accomplish and realistically look at obstacles and how to address them.  First, this is the most room I have ever had for a layout since my first back when I was about 12, but I never built in O gauge, so there are definite restrictions.

I envision this layout depicting the Appalachians, as I have observed in my home state of Pennsylvania and states of Virginia and West Virginia, where I have lived in the past.  It seems I like anything that was around before I was born in 1956, so steam to diesel transition era works.  I am not sticking to a year or decade.  If there is a car or engine I like that is a bit newer, it will be on the layout.  Here are some things I want to include:

1. A small town
2. Some mountains
3. I want a look of the trains going somewhere, but realize I may have to rely on imagination in a room less than 12 x 12
4. Coal trains and operating accessories
5. Logging trains and operating accessories
6. Mixed freight
7. Passenger trains
8. An area of operating accessories for future grandchildren which could be at a lower level than the rest of the track.
9. There are more I will add as they come to mind or as you ask questions.

Some thoughts on how to accomplish this in such a small space.  As the preliminary SCARM diagram shows. There is a sliding glass door on the right-hand wall as you enter the door from the rest of the basement.  I need to keep full access to it.  My thoughts have been a ‘U’ shaped layout with the open end of the ‘U’ facing the door.  There are 2 windows as well.  I do not want to be stretching across the layout, but may have to have turnback loops at the ends of the ‘U’.  To accommodate my Premier N&W J 611, Weaver Gold Edition B&O Cincinnatian, and their consists, I think I would have to include a loop around the room.  My thoughts have been to put that at the highest level, with lift-out bridges at the opening of the ‘U’.

These are initial thoughts that have been with me for a good while.  It is time to put them out there for anyone who wishes to participate to ask questions, give suggestions, or just chat in general.  At the outset, I want to thank everyone who contributes in any way.  I want to get this close to what works best for me, because I do not want to count on doing heavy rebuilding at a later age.  At 60, I realize I could be hampered in the heavier construction sooner than I would hope.

Mark,

As I've looked through the posts, I get the sense that you are more of a scale guy than a tinplater. If I'm right, than I'd really urge you to think about the scenes you want to depict almost before the track plan. Do you want that beautiful "J" to just go around a loop or do you want to use smaller engines like your PRR H and try to model a small branch line. Do you want to get serious about scenery or just "run trains?" Either way is valid and fun. It's about what will give you the most pleasure that matters..

I've been running a 13 1/2 x 15 foot layout for years which into a more toy like layout because my young grandchildren just love all the Lionel operating accessories. But we're about to construct   a new master suite with a bonus 19 x 25 train room underneath it. So I'm going to try to design and build this in phases because it already feels overwhelming just to think about everything from layout design to flooring, lighting and where to put in a work shop. The folks on this forum have been wonderfully helpful, as I see they've been to you.

My room won't be ready for at least 6 months, but my first consideration will be how far apart to space the LED "florescent" lights, both laterally and longitudinally and want what "heat" level to use. The late Jim Barrett had a wonderful piece on this but did not deal with spacing the fixtures. So any ideas or experience will be very welcome.

Good luck with your layout. I look forward to comparing notes and sharing ideas with the group and you as our layout plans come together.

RubinG, congratulations on your pending room. My fortunes are similar to you in that I have a newly constructed room for my layout. For lights I used track lighting that swivel; and more can be added. Give consideration to outlets; not only in the walls but the floor too. What type of HVAC will there be, and are there humidity issues?

Dennis, for me the most finicky was one of the H9 Consolidations.  All three H9s are MTH Premier, so I assume used the same tooling.  However, the pilot of one is lower than the others.  I learned a lesson, try every engine you have.  The same goes with side clearances.  Cab roofs and the long porch on the SD40-2 needed more clearance than the middle of the longest cars.

Rubin, thank you for reading through and commenting!  You are right, I have always been a scale guy.  I had no one in the family interested in trains, so I first got interested by looking at some Model Railroader magazines in the late '60s.  I only switched from HO and N scales to O gauge 3-rail 10 years ago.  The HO trains were too small for me to see the details and I had no room for O scale 2-rail.  It was only when I saw MTH PS2 trains that I decided to move to this.  If you haven't noticed, I really struggled with the small amount of trains, structures, and scenery I could fit into an 11x11 room.  Even as I have all the benchwork done and track laid, I still think I could have made a better plan.  The H9 is the dominant engine.  I sold the J a while back.  The H9 makes a nice steam engine to run in a small room.  I do have some scenes from the Thomas Subdivision of the Western Maryland Railway that I want to replicate in a very compressed manner, but I want to get the wiring all in and tested before I get too far into those.  Even a small layout has taken longer than I would have thought.  Please keep reading and commenting.

As far as lighting goes, I put in two units that aren't track lights, but are 4 swiveling LED lights on arms that swivel.  The lights themselves are at a fixed distance from each other.  They don't work as well as I would have liked, but regardless, I need more lighting.  It's always something.

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

RubinG, congratulations on your pending room. My fortunes are similar to you in that I have a newly constructed room for my layout. For lights I used track lighting that swivel; and more can be added. Give consideration to outlets; not only in the walls but the floor too. What type of HVAC will there be, and are there humidity issues?

Jay Francis,

I’m concerned that track lighting won’t be as effective as four foot fixtures, but I’m open to ideas. Basically I’m thinking of an E shaped track plan with a folded dog bone around the the outer “c” and a yard/ switching area in the middle. Should I place row of lights over each leg? As to outlets, I am thinking about a fourplex every six feet. As to the middle of the floor, my builder had discouraged this, saying it will very costly. Any thoughts?

HVAC WILL BE A UNIT JUST FOR THE NEW addition and I anticipate that I’ll need to run two or three dehumidifiers to maintain 50%. Again all thoughts are welcome.
thanks

@Mark Boyce posted:

Dennis, for me the most finicky was one of the H9 Consolidations.  All three H9s are MTH Premier, so I assume used the same tooling.  However, the pilot of one is lower than the others.  I learned a lesson, try every engine you have.  The same goes with side clearances.  Cab roofs and the long porch on the SD40-2 needed more clearance than the middle of the longest cars.

Rubin, thank you for reading through and commenting!  You are right, I have always been a scale guy.  I had no one in the family interested in trains, so I first got interested by looking at some Model Railroader magazines in the late '60s.  I only switched from HO and N scales to O gauge 3-rail 10 years ago.  The HO trains were too small for me to see the details and I had no room for O scale 2-rail.  It was only when I saw MTH PS2 trains that I decided to move to this.  If you haven't noticed, I really struggled with the small amount of trains, structures, and scenery I could fit into an 11x11 room.  Even as I have all the benchwork done and track laid, I still think I could have made a better plan.  The H9 is the dominant engine.  I sold the J a while back.  The H9 makes a nice steam engine to run in a small room.  I do have some scenes from the Thomas Subdivision of the Western Maryland Railway that I want to replicate in a very compressed manner, but I want to get the wiring all in and tested before I get too far into those.  Even a small layout has taken longer than I would have thought.  Please keep reading and commenting.

As far as lighting goes, I put in two units that aren't track lights, but are 4 swiveling LED lights on arms that swivel.  The lights themselves are at a fixed distance from each other.  They don't work as well as I would have liked, but regardless, I need more lighting.  It's always something.

I'm a Pennsy buff and run an H/9, H-3, A5, B-6 and C-1 switchers as well as RS-1- SW-1 and RS-3s from MTH (not all at once!), PRR PA-1 and F-3. And of course the NYC counterparts for when I’m so moved.
As to N&W, if you haven’t already done so, check out whatever you can find of O. Winston Link’s photos. You’ll find great and evocative ideas for scenic vignettes.

Ruben, I have seen O. Winston Link's photographs.  They are fantastic! 

Mark,

You probably know this already, but I’ve been amazed by the lighting arrays Link had to use to get his night shots. Hundreds of bulbs, dozens of fixtures, time delay, etc. Amazing!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Dennis, I agree.  My grades are approximately 4%.  I can’t say how many times I tore apart and rebuilt the grade on the K-Line trestle bents and the top and bottom of the grades for a smoother transition from level.  I haven’t even really started scenery yet.  🤷‍♂️

Scenery is usually one of the last things I thought? One thing that I'm curious about is ballast after scenery by the rails, or is it a mesh of the two depending on what exactly you're adding? I would imagine ground layers, ballast, finish with details like grass, plants and trees if that is what you're doing. Even though I haven't started anything at all, that is what is burning in my head.

What do you intend to do Mark? Guessing that ballasting may not be on your agenda?

Rubin, I remember reading about the massive lighting Link used.  It was worth the effort.

Dave, don’t let it burn in your head too long, or you may lose some circuits like I did!  😄😉

I prefer to not ballast until after all but the last scenic details are in.  That way the ballast looks like a well groomed main line.  Then I would add some weeds along lesser used sidings, sand on the grades, some coal in the yard.  I painted all the roadbed light gray before laying track so it isn’t so noticeable until the time comes for ballast.  I picked that idea up from something someone wrote several years ago.

Speaking of roadbed, I’ve always used cork. But I just found a box of Homabed in my store room. It’s probably 40 years old. Does anyone have any experience using this stuff?

Rubin, I have not used Homabed, but I have used Homasote on previous layouts.  I did have a 12x4 sheet of Homasote stashed that I cut up for roadbed for my present layout.  (I didn't know such a large sheet was ever available)  I then lightly glued Midwest cork roadbed on top of that for the beveled edges to make it easier to ballast and retain the nice slope.  With just a little carpenters glue, I am able to pull the cork off  and reuse it when I make changes.  I like Homasote and found it pretty easy to cut with a sharp carpet laying knife.  That makes no dust and only takes a few passes with the knife.  I would think Homabed would have all the great qualities, plus give the beveled edges and save on the cutting.  As far as the age of your Homabed, I wouldn't worry that would make a difference over new.  I acquired this 12x4 sheet by tearing apart a large table that was left behind in a house my mother-in-law bought.  The previous owner was a seamstress, and had a hefty home made 12x4 table for laying out projects.  The Homasote held dress maker's pins, as I could see pin holes in it.  She had lined drawn across it at 1-inch intervals, which made it easy measuring to cut for the layout.  I used a lot of the wood from the table for my layout.  The point is, that sheet of Homasote was decades old, and worked well for me.

Here's an example.

I know I’m a little late with this, but I’m glad to hear how well you’ve done post surgery. Happy to see you back in the saddle so to speak. 😉

Looks good Mark. Glad to see that you’re able to reuse so much material for the layout. One thing that I’ve used when cutting Homasote is a knife blade for a jigsaw. It cuts well with no dust.

Your wiring for the AIU’s is outstanding. A goal for most of us to try and emulate.

As far as switch control, I have some rocker switches set up around the layout that I have in front of the switch I’m controlling. I tend to follow the train around anyway, and that keeps me involved with the action. I can see the benefit of using an AIU to control the switches through DCS. Just my two cents.

Andy

Andy, I'm glad you are back.  I am back in the saddle, albeit a very padded saddle! 

This is my first go at powered switch machines of any sort.  In the past, I just switched them manually.  Here, I needed them since some switches are on opposite sides of the lift up bridges, so I wanted remote control.  I probably will use the pushbuttons that are within easy reach, so that means most of the switches. 

Thank you for the compliments on the wiring.  As I added more terminal blocks and wires for the switches, things got crowded very fast.  I still have 4 more switches to wire, but here is how it looks today.

I do have to report that the switches I have wired work great!  I did have to do some rewiring, as I reversed polarity of the relay boards when I decided to move them to the 12-port terminal board that I added in the middle.  The 24-port board on the right side is for the DZ1000 switches.   I could have gotten by with three 12-port boards and one 24-port board, but I had the 24-port boards, so I used them.  Room for expansion. 

Mark, that to me is fine art.

Thank you, Steve!!

One thing, I forgot to mention.  I have two drawings that I will redraw when everything is working.  I also need to label each AIU, terminal block, etc.  I can remember what is what right now.  However, if everything works well for a while, experience tells me I will forget what something is once I do have to troubleshoot something.  If I put labels on ahead of wiring, I would probably end up covering some labels with wires and have to relabel anyway.  I didn't take a photograph, but I got the second GRJ Watchdog generator installed on the outputs of the TIU that are all on the reverse side of this board.  I want to get some Velcro sticky back to attach them to the board, since they are just hanging by the leads right now.

I don't know anything about DCS Mark, but it looks like you have a fine wiring all set up for control.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I don't know anything about DCS Mark, but it looks like you have a fine wiring all set up for control.

Dave, Thank you!  Remember, looks can be deceiving.    However, in this case things are working pretty well. 

I'm waiting for someone to ask about lights in all my buildings.    I have never done that before, so that will be another item to plan out, But I am going to get rolling on scenery before that. 

Well, lights would only apply mostly for buildings that are open at night or round the clock. Sure some may have lights for late afternoon, but it really depends on what you want lit. Inside lights, outside lights, guess it will just boil down to how you want to go with it. I know that if I ever get things going, I would want to see if I could play around with fake moonlight for night scenes. While this would only be for shots, there is a lot to consider. I would figure something like indirect light, meaning light being shot up to the ceiling and coming off of that to light as opposed to it shining down from the ceiling. Again, just something to think about now.

Dave, my guess is that we will move to a single level home before I get to putting in lights.    At this point, I think I would save portions of the layout I like, and salvage wood, track, and structures for a new layout.  Oh, can't forget salvaging the trains!!!!!! 

Always save the trains Mark. Did you ever see the video on 4501? I think there was a picture of all the steam engines(Mikado's) lined up on tracks getting ready to head to scrap. Save the engines, save the engines!!!! Oh, and rolling stock, lol.

Mark that is looking really great, keep up that great work  I am working on my control panel switch and turn table rotary switch wiring with LED's for each whisker track 38 of them. Can you email me how you wired the Remote Commanders into the TIU's I have 4 of them that I will be installing GRJ Watchdog circuits in and not sure how to wire them into the TIU? I am also rewiring that rotary switch as I do not like how it looks at first we used 16 gauge wire nd I am rewiring it with 24 gauge and cleaning up the routing also. Keep up the great work Mark.

.

Rick, your control panel really looks great!!!

I had two double banana jacks from ages ago, so I used them.  I bought two more, but the ones I bought won't let you plug another banana jack into it like the old ones.  So, I wired a new one and an old one together, then was able to plug the banana jacks going to the terminal blocks into them.  I do not know what you call each of the two different types.  I bought the new ones from Digi-key.com.  You could use something other than double banana jacks, but since I had the two already it works. 

@Mark Boyce posted:

Rick, your control panel really looks great!!!

..., but the ones I bought won't let you plug another banana jack into it like the old ones.   I do not know what you call each of the two different types....

Banana quitter and banana splitter?

@SteveH posted:

Banana quitter and banana splitter?

In over 45 years in electronics, I never heard those terms, Steve!  😟

Sorry, I guess that's another Bad Dad Joke.  It's all made up and the points don't matter.

@SteveH posted:

Sorry, I guess that's another Bad Dad Joke.  It's all made up and the points don't matter.

No, that’s a good joke!  😆

A forumite emailed me asking about the double banana plugs.  He had picked out the right part.  I only thought of using them because I knew I had a couple on hand.  They are easy enough to purchase, but if I hadn't had them on hand, I probably would have just put large spade lugs on the wires for the Watchdog generators and tightened them under the TIU output binding posts.  There is always more than one way of doing things like that.

Funny you mention labeling wires Mark. In my younger days I could remember exactly where each wire went and what it controlled. I guess those brain cells are no longer in operation so labeling and making a schematic are important.

Bob

Ha ha, Bob!  I like the minion with the bananas!  There were so many times at work the last few years that I would work on something, make notes, then not see it for a year.  When it came up again, even my own notes didn’t make sense!  🤷‍♂️

I should add this comment I made on the "What did you do on your layout today" topic for those who have complimented my wiring.  "Yes, I have had to take more than one circuit apart because I connected wires to the wrong place.  Reminds me of some comments Bob and I had on the Retiring topic." 

Banana jacks. Had heard of them but no idea of how used. Look a lot better than trying to connect with ends that don’t fit well.

Building lighting. It can be a fun way to enjoy a change of pace and is surprisingly easy to install and control unless you want to get exotic. We have searched for “easy exotic”,  an easy way to control different rooms, lights, etc without much success.

Arduino is not in our vocabulary and is often mentioned.

So we opted for about seven choices while awaiting the magic box that will offer more options at a reasonable cost. We control the lights through the AIU/remote.

All of our buildings, structures are lighted. The roundhouse has over 100 LEDs with separate control over each stall plus the outside lights. We primarily use LEDs from Dave at Evan Designs. They cost a bit more but he backs them up and is always helpful.

If you want some ideas, give us a call.

Your wiring is exceptional.

Thank you, Bill!  We used banana plugs a lot in electronics years ago for a quick connection on test equipment or other devices.  The binding posts on the TIU are the typical double banana jack made to plug them into.  Nowadays, so many devices have an Ethernet jack to plug a laptop into instead of using test equipment.  How things changed during my 43 years working in electronics.  I never got into programming anything or writing instructions like the Arduino takes, so I had no interest going that route.  It is enough for me to learn how to use the AIU.  In fact, I never heard of Arduino until I had retired and Forum members brought it up here.

Thank you for the offer of advice on building lighting.  That will be down the road a ways.

I'm not quite finished with the turnout control wiring.  Today I temporarily mounted the push buttons to the layout frame.  I will do a better job when I put in a pretty fascia.  There are 3 more done on the other side of the layout.  These all work.  I am going to make labels for them since so many are so close together.  The three on the other side of the layout are spaced apart, so it is obvious which turnout they control.  The remote control through the AIU works too.  I just looked through everything for the two missing DZ1002 pushbuttons, but didn't find them.  Maybe they fell down behind something.    So wiring is almost done with the last two.

I'll be glad to put away the wire strippers and crimpers!! 

Looks good Mark!

@Mark Boyce posted:

I'll be glad to put away the wire strippers and crimpers!! 

said no one ever!

Nice work Mark. I bet you are happy to have that project in the rearview

@RSJB18 posted:

said no one ever!

Nice work Mark. I bet you are happy to have that project in the rearview

Yes, Bob, for a small layout this has dragged on way to long

That's a neat job you did there. Looks great! You must be a professional