Blackwater Canyon Line - October 14, 2024 - Town and Scratchbuild Planning

The electrical panel looks great!  It's ironic - I had an electrician at the house today to troubleshoot why my oven was throwing a breaker.  Turned out to be a loose connection in the main power box - easy fix.   While at the house he did a quick inspection and of course came across the layout under construction in the basement.   I was very happy to hear he gave my electrical panel and wire mapping a thumbs up.  Ended up spending a good 5 minutes asking me about trains as he had them as a kid. 

-Greg

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mark, you just have to sort your AIU's.  Some of them had 10A relays, others have 5A relays.  We had a long discussion about this some time back on OGR.  I was surprised to find different ratings on the relays, and I certainly don't understand why they want with 5A relays.

John, I missed that discussion.  I thought they all had 5 amp relays.  I have two brand new just delivered last month, one new old stock last winter, and one used AIU.  I am guessing from what you just wrote, the used one is probably the only one that could have 10 volt relays.  Thank you.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you Mike, Rich, and Greg!

Rich, the old red and green!  I sure used them a lot at the power company.  The engineers at headquarters wouldn’t even do a field check, they would just send out the prints for the final job.  Besides correcting errors, we as field engineers had to figure out how to prewire for outages to fit the new in with the old.  Sometimes we would do several changes for several outages, since an outage couldn’t last overnight.  I did lots of sharpening red and green pencils before we were done and I could send the as-builts back to engineering.  They were a higher pay grade, but I always wondered if they had the easier job than we did!  😄

Mike, the Watchdog is going to go on the other side of the board with the TIU and TMCC base.  I have two, so I’ll put it in to cover the bases.

I don't know when they switched from 10A to 5A relays in the AIU's but I remember on one of the Rich Batista DVD's that he used the AIU's only to switch track power.  After reading up on it I learned he had an older version AIU.

Michael

Michael, I have Rich’s DVDs, but I watched them before I learned about some AIUs having 5 amp relays.  Oh well, I’m all set if the older one is a 10 amp and I have to replace it with a newer one.  Though I can’t recall seeing anyone having trouble with one not working.

Mark, 5A, not 5V.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Mark, 5A, not 5V.

Thank you, John!  I correct my mistake above, but too late to get an A on the test!  😄

Mark, your wiring is a work of art!. I don't have no problem with the electrical I understand it somewhat, but it's the neatness that kills me every time.

Mark you’ve come a long long way, page 58, and there’s a ton of very useful information for many beginners and even seasoned modelers on your layout Journey. Your wiring is enviable snd the Western Maryland paint schemes are beautiful. Your layout is a Wow!  Happy Railroading Everyone

Nice, neat work there Mark!  Looks like Bob's instructions were for the same kind of set up I discussed a while ago with an external relay. Regardless of whether the AIU relays are 5 or 10 amps I would still do it with the external relays as you have done if I was going to switch power. Let the AIU switch low voltage control signals and let the external relays handle the high voltage side. It is much easier to replace one of those relays than a AIU if the need ever arises.

Thank you E-Unit-79, Larry, and Dan!!

E-Unit, Neatness in wiring can be thought of like washing steam and diesel engines.  Dirty engines move the same load as clean ones, so not so neat wiring moves electrons just like neat wiring.  Or on another note; my sloppy carpentry is just as solid as a cabinet maker's. 

Larry, I never thought this topic would be going on for 58 pages.  There is a lot of material in an OGR Forum page when compared to some other venues.  Thank you for your encouragement.

Dan, You are right it is easier and less expensive to replace those relays than an AIU.  I now have some spares of everything, just in case replacements aren't easily available when needed.

Mark, you need to put a frame around your power station and display it on the wall.   Too bad it will be hidden under the table!!!    Well done!

Cheers, Dave

Dave, Thank you!  It's like some modelers who have the tools and skills to build cabinet grade benchwork, then cover it up with scenery. 

Here is a puzzler that I ran into Saturday, and Bill Webb helped me solve Sunday.  When I setup accessory ports in the remote, I could get the relay in the AIU to operate properly, but the blue relay would not operate.  I checked voltage and polarity for the 12 volt DC to both the AIU and relay board, and it was correct.  Bill wrote me a list of questions and the first was the problem.  He asked if I was using the same wall wart for both the AIU and the relay board.  I was not, I used two identical 12 volt DC 500 ma wall warts, one for the AIUs and one for the relay boards.  When I powered everything from the same wall wart (either one, I checked) the AIU relay operated, the blue relay operated, the red light came on beside the relay, and I had power to the track on that block.  Bill said he learned this by accident.  When installing an additional relay board a distance away from his main board, he put in a second wall wart, and it wouldn't work.

I'm still scratching my head as to why it made a difference.  Oh well.    43 years working in electronics taught me that some things are for the higher thinking engineers.  I just accept what works and duplicate it on every similar job.  I'm retired now; I won't worry my brain.  As kids in high school used to say, "Ask me if I care?" 

I finished wiring the AIU accessory ports to control power to individual track blocks.  I also programmed the remote to select each of the 7 mainline blocks, 13 sidings, and 2 blocks on my Ceiling Central Railroad in the next room.  This photograph shows the completed wiring and the red LEDs show each relay that is picked up applying power to the tracks.  I should say initially finished wiring.  I do have to trouble shoot two blocks that I must have crossed up wires.  The AIU relay picks up, but not the replay applying power.

This is the other side of the board where I still have to install Gunrunnerjohn's Watchdog generators.

After I get those two items taken care of, I will start wiring in the DZ1000 switch machines to the AIUs.  Thank you for taking a look.

Never thought I was be excited to see wiring organization but it's easy to be interested when it looks this good!

Nice progress Mark!

Wow Mark, that was a very productive day. Congratulations on the gigantic accomplishment of finishing the wiring! That has to be a great feeling. How is your back holding up?

    I too find it hard to get excited about wiring but can sure appreciate the good work involved there.

    My  layout doesn't have anywhere near the amount of wires you have and mine is a jumbled rats nest below the surface.

    I may have to attend to that one of these days.

Thank you, Bill, Jay, and fast freight!  I don’t get excited about wiring either, but at least something rubbed off in 43 years in electronics.  

Jay, the last couple days, I was just moving wires from one side of the board to the other. I did have to break out the wire stretcher for a few of them.  😉  My back is actually feeling pretty good, and the pinched sciatic nerve has been pretty good too.  I did wake up about 1:00 last night with a back ache and had to stay up a while, then like always I can sleep until morning.   Last night may have been because I rode my bicycle for 15 minutes yesterday.  Who knows!  😄  Thank you for asking!

fast freight, I do have a bit of a tangle of wires behind the board because of moving wires from one side to the other.  It is at the one spot on the layout that is a bit of a reach underneath.  A rats nest can appear almost by manic.

Wow fantastic work Mark! Like the relay setup being controlled by the AIU's how many DZ-1000's do you need to hook up and are they hard wired from turnout to control relay?

What an accomplishment for sure getting all that done after all you have been through!

Very nice Mark. I can relate- In my contracting days, I always took great care and pride in organizing all of the wires in a panel board, motor controller, etc. Only to have to put the covers on, never to be seen again.

At least I knew how I left it for the next guy who was in the gear.

Glad to hear your back is holding up too.

Bob

Bob, Yes, it is a good feeling knowing I left something in good shape for the next guy.  Occasionally the next guy was me!! 

Thank you for my back's sake!

I discovered that my wiring errors weren't wiring errors at all.  After checking all my wiring and finding it right, I deleted all the accessories on the remote for AIU 1 and reloaded them.  All of them worked this go round.  Second, I discovered I forgot to program one of the tracks on AIU 3, so once I added that, all is swell!!

I also plugged in the Gunrunnerjohn Watchdog Generator on my TIU fixed output 2 for my sidings.  When I powered all the sidings, none of the engines started up on applying power just as John designed it for.  I was now able to start each engine with the remote individually.  Hooray!!

Thank you John, and Thank you Bill Webb for the AIU assistance!!

Congratulations Mark, that's a real milestone.  Glad you're feeling up to working on your layout again.  I really enjoy reading your updates and would say keep up the good work, but I know you will.

Thank you, Steve!!  Wiring layouts is old hat, but Getting more use out of the DCS system than just simple engine control was a milestone.  The back does pretty good.  That is even considering I am now off the medication they first gave me when the sciatic nerve was pinched by the messed up lower back almost 3 years ago.  I do still need a pillow on my padded stool to work on the layout. 

Mark, your wiring skills are outstanding! I wish I had them, but its funny I know just enough to get in trouble! LOL Maybe I will go back and dress it up once I am sure everything works! It will never be a clean as your, but I can always dream about it!

I am glad you got your AIU's in line to play well with others! I think I will stick with my little control board. I think for me trying to learn AIU's could really push me over the edge! LOL

Mike, thank you very much!  Even after 45 years in electronics, I have to rely on others who have done it.  Bill Webb was invaluable in wiring out the AIUs and higher amperage relays.  GunrunnerJohn’s Watchdog Generator is beyond my understanding.  Somehow, I have a hard time thinking outside the box.  I was in the right jobs, implementing and fixing schemes that others had developed.  Even more so, I wonder why MTH didn’t address the watchdog issue long ago.  There has to be a logical reason; I am not knocking MTH on this question.  I still have to locate a second Remote Commander to put the second Watchdog on the other fixed output.

Two reasons I went with the AIU.  

One, I wanted to control track power and track switches from either side of the lift up bridges.  With a traditional control panel, I would have had to think through two-way switches throughout.

Two, I already had invested in a TIU and remote and was using only a small part of the capability.  I had already bought a spare TIU and two spare remotes.  I now have a spare AIU as well.  I sold a couple engines to collect the funds for the spares.

Well I am looking for a remote commander also but due to funds it will have to wait. I am in the process of selling off some stuff so I can buy a steam engine for my layout. After the last one I bought that lasted 2 minutes before the board burned up I am not hooked on getting one. I still have to sell a couple more things and I will be there!

Mike, I recall that engine.  I would consider that a fluke!!  What kind of engine are you looking for?  I can keep an eye out for you.

I know you mentioned the cost of shipping issue with the Greyhound Station.  I got burnt on shipping from here in Northwestern Pennsylvania to California on my Menards American Power Station.  After I had the station, I realized it was too large for any space I would put it, so decided to get the commercial backdrop of a brick coal fired power station like I frequented decades ago.  I offered to pay the shipping to seal the deal, and the oversize box going cross country caused me to net about $25 on the sale.  It was my fault.  I was naïve.  I claim full responsibility, and don't even remember who I sold it to.

Hi Mark, I am getting a Union Pacific 4-8-4, already lined up with a forum member. All I have to do is come up with the cash! LOL

Excellent choice, Mike!!

Nice looking wiring and installation, Mark - very professional looking.

Thank you, Richie!  I just started on the DZ-1000 project this evening.

I didn't get a terminal block I need yet, so I wired two DZ1000 switch machines making some connections with alligator clip jumpers to make sure I was doing it right to control them with the DCS remote.  I had success on the second try.  However, as I was going to switches to make the selection on the remote, I started questioning my ability to scroll through the future 12 switches while operating a running train.  My reaction time is pretty poor.  I decided to wire out one of the Z-stuff push buttons to the front edge of the layout and try the push button.  Here is my quick mockup for a passing siding switch located right at the backdrop.

I found that I could react faster to locate the pushbutton than select it on the remote.  So, do I wire up all of them to push buttons, or wire for both push buttons and to the AIUs to use the remotes?? 

I did make one observation that instead of selecting each track section that I want powered, to follow this sequence.

1. Power the TIU and AIUs, but don't apply power from the Z4000.

2.  Select all track sections.

3. Turn off those that I don't want power on.

4. Apply power to the selected tracks with the Z4000.

Since we had trick or treat, we decided I would take Bentley for a ride in the car so he doesn't bark his head off the whole time kids are coming to the front stoop.  Here is his costume he wore as we drove down the road.  Argh!

Mark

Your observation is what I suspect for myself. I'm going hard wired switch control.

Mark, I generally avoid commenting on most things DCS since I don't have any first-hand experience using it.

Oh well, here goes anyway.  Personally I prefer dedicated switches, but I do have a few thoughts for you to consider.  Can Routes be programmed in DCS to throw multiple switches for that route with a single button push on the Handheld remote?  If so I would think wiring for AIU may be advantageous for that. Also if you envision any scenarios operating the trains where you may be out of reach of a dedicated push button, you'd have the remote option.

However, if wiring both ways are possible, that may be optimal.

BTW, cute... umm I mean ferrocious costume.

Mark- I'm with SteveH. For operations I would prefer a hands on approach. But for the times I want to sit back with a glass of single malt and watch 'em run, the routes function of DCS is pretty cool.

Bob

Cute pooch too!

Thank you Keith, Steve, and Bob.  Someone else sent me a text suggesting the routes!  I saw a Rich Melvin video from the early days of DCS, and he showed about Routes.  After a half dozen years, I had forgotten about that capability.  That does change things.

Yes Keith, the local push button is the way I originally thought I would go.  Now that I have all these AIU ports, I thought why not use them.

I do not have a WIU.  The reader who texted showed a photograph of his phone or tablet saying it’s east to setup there.  Good suggestion.  Right now I need to but another terminal block to power all these DZ1000s.  😄

Mark, I have a mix of panel control, ground throws and 1 branchline with sidings that’s exclusively on a AIU. It’s location negated the use of ground throws and no matter where you put a control panel. It would require a good walk at times. I can now be near the train and control sidings and such through the remote. Rather than walking back to the panel. As far as throwing turnouts while trying to run a train. Forget it. I can’t navigate the remote that quickly either. I stop the train and throw the turnout. Stop again and throw it back the other way. More realistic and will add some length to your session.

I would vote push button because I think having the button in the same spot all the time becomes muscle memory. Also, if you ever need to change control systems (to anything, conventional, DCC, Legacy, BlueRail...whatever), you already got the switches wired.

Having remotely controlled switches would be nice for when I want to kick back and relax. But we'll see what happens.

My dog is exhausted from "guarding" the house all night from the very threatening kids running around asking for candy haha

@Mark Boyce posted:

I found that I could react faster to locate the pushbutton than select it on the remote.

I have the same issue with legacy.  The remote  'locate/select' reaction time thingy is compounded as my eyes continually dart back and forth from the trains to the remote.  I finally have been able to find the time to run  the trains recently and thankfully (to Bill's point)  I no longer have to look at the control panel when I throw the switches.  Maybe I need a half dozen remotes so I can run the trains by feel and keep my eyes on the action.   Routes are coming next year for me but will be primarily for display.