New steam loco book

Looked interesting so I just ordered a copy.

Mr. Withuhn was a longtime respected curator at the Smithsonian and a qualified steam engineer. Should be an informed tome on the steam locomotives in America!

Love the cover.  

Also a nice coaling tower!

Bill Withuhn conducted dynamometer tests of T&P #610 (2-10-4) and SP Daylight #4449, employing Southern Ry's dynamometer car. Looks like an interesting book - thank you for the alert.

(Professor) Tinplate Art - "life without learning is death".      Agreed !

MARK S: THANKS! In the interest of full disclosure, it was, and presumably still is, the motto of one of the universities I attended: Adelphi in Garden City, NY.

I found the time to read the forward by Kevin O'Keefe.  There is a bit of a "dig" in there that those of you who have read some of the recent book offerings in the past few years might pick up on. I found it both true and hilarious! Nice job Lad!!!

Kevin P. Keefe byline:

"In the last months of his life, he was continuing to work on a massive history of steam locomotive technology from the late 19th century through the mid-20th century, a companion to White’s landmark “American Locomotives: An Engineering History, 1830-1880” (Johns Hopkins, 1997). Associates of Withuhn are working to secure publication of the book at some point in the future."

Thanks for that, Farmer Bill:  I just ordered one of those, as well.

Being in the steel business I am particularly intrigued by a comment from an Amazon reviewer stating Mr. Withuhn goes into details regarding metallurgy. I have it in my cart to order from Amazon now based on this and other reviews that this is truly and in depth book. Most steam books have decent pictures and very little detail. Nothing more typically that can't be found through internet searches. Thanks for posting this and other's feedback here.

Read Withuhn's obituary to get a better understanding of this man's many achievements. He also flew some 200 missions as a navigator in Vietnam. He was too tall to be a pilot!

Just ordered copy looking fwd to reading it.

few books give insight into the engineering of steam locomotives 

The craftsmanship put into these amazing machines is lost to a world of cnc machines and catia

While 3d modeling is a very powerful tool , slide rules and velum designed the appollo program which it seems hard to duplicate the engineering and skill (Grumman LEM) today 

Those engineers could also count on a dedicated cadre of machinists, boiler makers and pipe fitters, tool and die makers, and a number of other mechanical craft folks who knew their jobs and executed those tasks from blueprints and mechanical drawings, and not from a computer screen! 

trainmankjm posted:

While 3d modeling is a very powerful tool , slide rules and velum designed the appollo program which it seems hard to duplicate the engineering and skill (Grumman LEM) today 

I was an engineer at Grumman during the years they were designing and building the LEM and Space Shuttle wings - although my work was on airplanes - not spacecraft. I have to put in a plug for my former employer. It was a very capable company and group of people.

MELGAR

Tinplate Art posted:

Those engineers could also count on a dedicated cadre of machinists, boiler makers and pipe fitters, tool and die makers, and a number of other mechanical craft folks who knew their jobs and executed those tasks from blueprints and mechanical drawings, and not from a computer screen! 

Plus applying all that sweat and muscle in a heavy, noisy industry without the benefit of air conditioning.

Rusty

They were a different generation to say the least: dedicated, hard working individuals who applied their craft and labor often without a full measure of safety oversight! 

RE: Grumman: My Italian family was very involved with their facility in Bethpage, Long Island, New York. Two uncles and a first cousin worked for them with two retiring from the company after many years of service. Another Italian neighbor from Woodhaven worked on the wiring for the LEM  module. My son is currently employed as an aeronautical engineer with Northrup Grumman in Melbourne, FL with a specialty in airframe design. I can only say good things about a great company with a proud history. My dad worked for the Brooklyn Navy Yard for twenty years, and I well remember many trips there on Navy Day, and those dark blue Grumman jets on the carrier decks. Made me proud that my family had a connection with such a fine company! The Grumman F6F "Hellcat" was a legendary WW II fighter with a record 5000 kills!

is that an S class NKP Berkshire (ALCO) on the cover?

GREAT shot of a NICE front end!

overlandflyer posted:

is that an S class NKP Berkshire (ALCO) on the cover?

Yes, an NKP "Berk", but I though all the NKP 700s were from Lima Locomotive Works.

Hot Water posted:

overlandflyer posted:

is that an S class NKP Berkshire (ALCO) on the cover?

Yes, an NKP "Berk", but I though all the NKP 700s were from Lima Locomotive Works.

 

according to steam locomotives dot com the first 15 were built by ALCO.

overlandflyer posted:

Hot Water posted:

overlandflyer posted:

is that an S class NKP Berkshire (ALCO) on the cover?

Yes, an NKP "Berk", but I though all the NKP 700s were from Lima Locomotive Works.

 

according to steam locomotives dot com the first 15 were built by ALCO.

S

15

700-714

1934

ALCO

Numbers 700-714 scrapped between 1957 and 1961

Correct.  Ironically, Lima gets credit for developing the superpower concept, but Alco actually got the order to build the first NKP Berks.

I ordered this book and look forward to reading it (supposed to be delivered today).  From what I have heard about the book and author Withuhn, it is the type of locomotive book I like best:  technical, and written by someone who really understood locomotive operation, historical context, and design.  I agree with TEXASSP:  Far too many locomotive books are just picture books with a few tidbits of specifications that one can easily find on the internet.  Give me books that are products of careful research and novel analysis.

Withuhn is best described as a locomotive scholar. He did the research and was a most knowledgeable person on the subject. This latest book may well be his crowning achievement.

overlandflyer posted:

Hot Water posted:

overlandflyer posted:

is that an S class NKP Berkshire (ALCO) on the cover?

Yes, an NKP "Berk", but I though all the NKP 700s were from Lima Locomotive Works.

 

according to steam locomotives dot com the first 15 were built by ALCO.

S

15

700-714

1934

ALCO

Numbers 700-714 scrapped between 1957 and 1961

Rusty

I received the book yesterday and have enjoyed reading (so far) the chapters on the Norfolk & Western Big 3 and Big Boy and Allegheny.  Too many locomotive books are written by either hacks or people with a particular ax to grind.  Withuhn's book is thoughtful and brings a new perspective to some often-visited topics.

My copy arrived today and I read the forward. After walking a couple miles earlier, I was wiped out and took a long nap (used to walk several miles with no problem. )

I just ordered a copy last night.  I can't wait for it to arrive.

Stuart

I worked for many years with Bill at Steamtown.  His love for steam was obvious in every conversation with him.  Not a bad engineer either; he loved to run'em.  I once spent a day with him at the Smithsonian; got the cooks tour.  I knew a book was in the making years back, but heard nothing since.  

Where can I find the book?

Earl

Conductor Earl posted:

I worked for many years with Bill at Steamtown.  His love for steam was obvious in every conversation with him.  Not a bad engineer either; he loved to run'em.  I once spent a day with him at the Smithsonian; got the cooks tour.  I knew a book was in the making years back, but heard nothing since.  

Where can I find the book?

Earl

  

I ordered it from Amazon... should get it tomorrow!!!

Well, I'm half way through and I'm a little disappointed with the book.  I have found numerous errors, both in the text and in the photo captions.

Examples:

Page 75, lower photo:  Caption reads "Young valve gear, seen here on an Illinois Central 4-6-2 in 1937, was not widely used.  Valve events easily became distorted at high rpm." 

In the photo it is clear that the valve gear on the engine is Baker valve gear.  He should have found a builder's photo of a Union Pacific 7000 series 4-8-2, which were built with Young valve gear;

Page 194, the chart with the specifications on the USRA Light and Heavy 2-8-2, 4-6-2, and 4-8-2, has the specifications for the Light and Heavy 4-8-2 transposed;

Page 200, lower photo:  Caption reads "Pennsylvania Railroad class N2s engine No. 8903, at Chicago in 1948, was a USRA heavy 2-10-2, built with PRR's preferred Belpaire firebox."

  The Pennsy class N2s were built with radial stayed fireboxes, and later rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes, and reclassed N2sa;

Page 218, upper drawing:  Caption reads "Lima engineer James Smith was an unsung hero.  Without his articulated trailing truck, shown here in a patent drawing, Super Power might have remained only a theory." 

The use of a four wheel trailing truck was (usually) necessary for carrying the large grates needed for Super Power locomotives.  The articulated trailing truck wasn't.  None of the 4-6-4's or 4-8-4's used it.  Best examples of this fallacy:  1. The Erie 2-8-4's.  The ones built by Baldwin and Lima had the articulated trailing trucks, while the ones built by Alco had a conventional frame and Delta four wheel trailing truck;  2.  Texas and Pacific rebuilt some of their I-1 class 2-10-4's with conventional frames and Delta four wheel trailing trucks in place of the Lima design articulated trailing trucl;

Page 232, second full paragraph, near the bottom of the paragraph:  "Chessie's big H7a 2-8-8-2's, in contrast, had more boiler capacity and plenty of low speed pull.  But their 63-inch drivers, though not plagued with the severe balance problems of the T&P I-1, hindered acceleration." 

The C&O H-7 class 2-8-8-2's had 57-inch drivers;

Page 296, photo and text in middle of page:  Photo caption reads "Great Northern's R-class 2-8-8-2 locomotives, as illustrated by No. 2049, were rebuilds of 2-8-8-0 engines, such as no. 2023."

NO THEY WEREN'T!  The R-class 2-8-8-2's, class R-1 and R-2, were built new, either by Baldwin or in GN's shops.  The 2-8-8-0's were originally built as class N-1 compounds, then rebuilt as N-2 simples, using the original boilers and frames, and finally rebuilt a second time as class N-3's, using new boilers and cast frames.

I'm not saying that everything in this book is wrong, but these and other errors and contrary history from other books and articles on the subject of steam locomotives makes this book suspect in it's accuracy.

Stuart

STUART: You obviously have a comprehensive knowledge of steam locomotive mechanics and development in the US! Very impressive corrections, indeed, and I believe the late Mr. Withuhn would be grateful for them if he were still with us!

Tinplate Art posted:

STUART: You obviously have a comprehensive knowledge of steam locomotive mechanics and development in the US! Very impressive corrections, indeed!, and I believe the late Mr. Withun would be grateful for them.

Thank you for the compliment.   My library of railroad books numbers close to 200 by various authors, publishers, railroads, and topics.

This isn't the only book that I have read with mistakes or errors.  They can happen anywhere.  I guess that with all the excitement about this book I would have hoped not to have found so many.

Stuart

STUART: My reference library is much smaller, maybe fifty books, focusing on a few favorite roads like the Long Island, the NC&StL, the Tennessee Central, the New York City Subway/El system, Brooklyn, NY trolleys, Ghost Railroads of Tennessee and Kentucky, the Southern Railway, as well as numerous photo books about steam on many different roads. Have run, fired, and performed maintenance on 2-8-0's and a 2-8-2 on a museum railroad. Two of my favorite books are Alfred Bruce's The Steam Locomotive in America and D.C. Buell's Basic Steam Locomotive Maintenance. Both of those volumes get into the mechanics of steam locomotives in good detail. I learned about flue sheets, superheater tubes, petticoat pipes, dry pipes, Southern valve gear, power reverses, cross-compound steam driven air pumps, etc long before I ever actually worked on those components! I am not so versed as you are in the actual specifications, but I knew the engines I actually ran and worked on, in part thanks to some old steam heads that were my mentors in the cab. One gentleman back in 1984 previously had 43 years with Southern Railway, retiring as a Road Foreman of Engines, and the other had 43 years with the Seaboard System, retiring as a Traveling Engineer. Both had extensive steam experience during and after their careers, and I benefitted from, and was very grateful for, their experience and knowledge!

Two more I just found!

1.  Page 282, last sentence of first paragraph:  "The three J-class engines of 1950 were the last mainline steam locomotives made in North America."

No, the Y-6b's built in 1952 were the last mainline steam locomotives, and the S-1a 0-8-0's of 1953 were the last conventional steam locomotives of any type.

2.  Starting on page 293 he discusses the C&O H-7 class 2-8-8-2 simple articulated locomotives.  The author seems to have found a new reason why they were built as simple rather than compound articulates.  In all other books about these engines the reason given has been that if built as compounds the front cylinders would have been too wide to fit through the tunnels on the C&O at that time.  The author makes no mention of that reason.  Instead he goes on about the instability of the front engine of eight coupled compound articulated locomotives, something that I have never read in any of my other books about articulated steam locomotives.

Stuart

Ideally, he would be here to defend or explain these apparent errors. Kind of sad!

Stuart posted:

2.  Starting on page 293 he discusses the C&O H-7 class 2-8-8-2 simple articulated locomotives.  The author seems to have found a new reason why they were built as simple rather than compound articulates.  In all other books about these engines the reason given has been that if built as compounds the front cylinders would have been too wide to fit through the tunnels on the C&O at that time.  The author makes no mention of that reason.  Instead he goes on about the instability of the front engine of eight coupled compound articulated locomotives, something that I have never read in any of my other books about articulated steam locomotives.

Stuart

Just a supposition on my part but, if the locomotive had been built as a compound,  the front engine would have had very large-diameter low-pressure pistons which therefore would have been much more massive than on the rear engine, and therefore more likely to induce directional oscillation of the front engine. Also, I expect that the rear engine was rigidly mounted to the frame while the front engine was free to pivot, which would have been another factor that could induce directional oscillation. By the way, I looked at a copy of the book but thought it too encyclopedic for me...

MELGAR

MELGAR posted:

Stuart posted:

2.  Starting on page 293 he discusses the C&O H-7 class 2-8-8-2 simple articulated locomotives.  The author seems to have found a new reason why they were built as simple rather than compound articulates.  In all other books about these engines the reason given has been that if built as compounds the front cylinders would have been too wide to fit through the tunnels on the C&O at that time.  The author makes no mention of that reason.  Instead he goes on about the instability of the front engine of eight coupled compound articulated locomotives, something that I have never read in any of my other books about articulated steam locomotives.

Stuart

Just a supposition on my part but, if the locomotive had been built as a compound,  the front engine would have had very large-diameter low-pressure pistons which therefore would have been much more massive than on the rear engine, and therefore more likely to induce directional oscillation of the front engine. Also, I expect that the rear engine was rigidly mounted to the frame while the front engine was free to pivot, which would have been another factor that could induce directional oscillation. By the way, I looked at a copy of the book but thought it too encyclopedic for me...

MELGAR

MELGAR, I agree with you on the problems you describe (they're almost exactly as the author wrote in his book).  The thing is that this has never been discussed in any other book or article in the design of the C&O H-7 2-8-8-2.  The reason for going with a four cylinder simple articulated has always been written as a problem with tunnel clearances if a compound design was used. 

Also, consider that there were already many 2-8-8-2 compound articulated locomotives running prior to the design of the C&O H-7, most notably the USRA ones, such as the N&W Y-3 class, which seemed to work quite well.  Why would the oscillation problem only come up with the H-7 design, and not the engines prior?

Stuart

Page 328:  Discussing the EMD diesel engine:  "Two-cycle operation made for a simple design and eliminated exhaust valves."

The EMD two-stroke (not cycle) engine most definitely has exhaust valves.  What it doesn't have are intake valves.

Stuart