Nickel Plate Road 587

645 posted:

 

An organization such as IRM (Illinois Railway Museum) is in the best position these days to operate equipment as they own the land, buildings, equipment and demonstration railroad. There is nothing like having full control over everything. No, IRM is not perfect but they do very well with what they have and keep making improvements to the place.

Not only do they own the right of way and museum campus, but have been buying adjacent "buffer" properties to prevent suburbia from encroaching and complaining about the noise.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

645 posted:

 

An organization such as IRM (Illinois Railway Museum) is in the best position these days to operate equipment as they own the land, buildings, equipment and demonstration railroad. There is nothing like having full control over everything. No, IRM is not perfect but they do very well with what they have and keep making improvements to the place.

Not only do they own the right of way and museum campus, but have been buying adjacent "buffer" properties to prevent suburbia from encroaching and complaining about the noise.

These quiet zones going up are a load of crap for multiple reasons. First, the railroad was there WAY before the residents were there, and it takes them to work in some cases. Also, they didn't have to build right next to a   3-track main and suddenly say: "It's so noisy here! We need to send a complaint." Quiet zones are dangerous too. There have been many cases of people crossing the tracks at commuter stations and getting hit because they don't hear the train. But they should still be paying attention.

Rusty

I would love to see 765 run to IRM from Chicago. The museum grounds are adequate for an excursion, with enough space for photo runbys, an even surface for passengers to unload, a place to turn 765 around, and enough entertainment for passengers. I don't know if 765 will fit under the wires though, or if UP will let them run on their tracks. 

645 posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

I would love to see 765 run to IRM from Chicago. The museum grounds are adequate for an excursion, with enough space for photo runbys, an even surface for passengers to unload, a place to turn 765 around, and enough entertainment for passengers. I don't know if 765 will fit under the wires though, or if UP will let them run on their tracks. 

Union Pacific policy is only UP owned and operated steam can operate on UP trackage. That is 844 - and 4014 if/when it is restored to operational status in the future. 3985? Slim chance of 3985 seeing operate again but might be possible after 4014 is done?

Remember that SP 4449 has an excellent record operating on the Southern Pacific but after UP took the Espee over it has not operated on UP regardless if it was ex-SP or original UP trackage. If it weren't for BNSF (and the P&W shortline) 4449's operations would really be limited. If 4449 can't operate on UP they sure aren't going to allow 765 to do so.

 

To be clear, the Union Pacific has NEVER "turned down" the SP 4449 group from ANY operations on UP. The main fact is, the SP 4449 group has NEVER asked the UP to "operate 4449 on their lines! There really isn't any suitable locations on the former SP lines in Oregon to operate one day excursions to anyway. 

645 posted:

Hot Water posted:

To be clear, the Union Pacific has NEVER "turned down" the SP 4449 group from ANY operations on UP. The main fact is, the SP 4449 group has NEVER asked the UP to "operate 4449 on their lines! There really isn't any suitable locations on the former SP lines in Oregon to operate one day excursions to anyway. 

Thank you for setting me straight on the facts regarding 4449 potentially operating on the UP - thought it was asked at least once after UP took over the Espee.

I did meet Mr. Ed Dickens once very briefly a few years ago and subject of SP 4449 and other non-UP steam operating on UP came up. Mr. Dickens told me at that time only UP owned and maintained steam is permitted to operate on UP trackage.

Well, that may be HIS "policy" but prior to the retirement of Steve Lee, the UP actually ASKED our group (SP 4449) on two different occasions to join their 844 in operations. The first time, back in 1999, was the dedication of the J. R. Davis Yard in Roseville (which was eventually delayed enough so that just UP 844 and 3985 handled the big event), and the second time was for the double header operation in 2007 out of Tacoma, Washington.

Tipton is a true "dead end".  There have been several blocks of track removed along with a grade crossing or two.  No small issue to reconnect to the former NKP.  

As a former supporter of the ITM, I'm disgusted by the whole mess.  Wish I knew more about what is really going on.

Mallard4468 posted:

As a former supporter of the ITM, I'm disgusted by the whole mess.  Wish I knew more about what is really going on.

A very sad situation - a steaming pile that will take a small miracle to undo.  

For those that want more information on the problems at the Indiana Transportation Museum, see the Indiana Railroads Bull Session Forum.  There are a couple different threads of information and plenty of bickering and finger pointing to go along with it.   Unless something dramatic happens, the best thing that could happen to 587 would probably be for it to come to Fort Wayne.   Not saying it would or could or should, but at least it would be in safe hands that know how to take care of it, and at some point it could at least be properly displayed, if not operated.

No matter where it might go, it can't go by rail. It would have to be trucked. BIG Bucks...

Still not cheap, but what about trucking it to Tipton  and either putting it on the rails or on  a flat car?   Wonder if the HHPA would allow someone to do a one time move to pull it closer to Tipton to reduce the trucking distance?

645 posted:

Also wonder what will become of NKP GP7 426 (which was specifically ordered for the Indy-Tipton line that ITM used) and NKP business car #1? Far as I'm aware the 426 is still operational. Glad I got my shots of it running on the line to Tipton a few years back!

I rode in the cab of 426 in 2015 on the Fairtrain, the last year too.

 

Also at ITM and not well known is restored / operational Monon SW1 #50 which is a war baby built in 1942:

That locomotive was the FIRST diesel the Monon owned, yet it's hardly used.

The latest in the saga is here: http://www.insideindianabusine...te-proposal-rankings

Such a shame what has occurred, as I have many fond memories of taking my kids to see the 587 during the State Fair, arrive and depart the station in Fishers, Indiana and ride it to the fair in the mid 1990's.

The Indiana Transportation Museum is now looking to potentially relocate to Logansport, Indiana: http://itm.org/indiana-transpo...ation-in-logansport/

Another update: http://www.indystar.com/story/...-greenway/525141001/

I'm not sure this is good news, as the Fair Train was the biggest fund raiser for the ITM to help fund the 587.

The whole thing is as close to a total disaster as it can be.  I feel the notion of running trains only north from Noblesville is a loser proposition, and I am less than convinced that this Logansport idea will amount to anything either.  There are lots of people at fault here, but ultimately, the governments of Noblesville and Fishers sold their constituents down the river.  The Deputy Mayor of Noblesville was caught red handed behaving in a most unethical way, but even that revelation was unable to halt the momentum.

All you have to do is visit the gorgeous MONON TRAIL with all of its resident and tourist based economic activity to figure out why the public officials in Noblesville want to emulate that............in their minds they ARE looking after their constituents.  

Except that in this case the general public seems to be siding with keeping the railroad in place.  At the very least its a 50-50 thing, and BOTH side could get what they want, but the local governments don't seem willing to even DISCUSS the idea.  This is the typical government move of drawing the conclusion and then molding the evidence to fit the conclusion.  In Fort Wayne, they just keep hiring consultants until they get one that gives them the answer they want, and then they run out and either say, "hey, look at this great idea" as if it had never occurred to them, OR they run out and say "see we told you so, this consultant says we're right!"  As much as I would like to see the riverfront development in Fort Wayne, and by extension, Headwaters Junction, I'm already getting a little disgusted with the way this thing is getting strong armed through the process, and any dissent be ****ed.....  Neither the Richard or the Henry administration have/had much use for opinions that differ from theirs.
 

Dieselbob posted:

  In Fort Wayne, they just keep hiring consultants until they get one that gives them the answer they want, and then they run out and either say, "hey, look at this great idea" as if it had never occurred to them, OR they run out and say "see we told you so, this consultant says we're right!"

Can you be more specific?

The Harrison project is the one that I can mention.   There have been a couple other ones that I don't feel at liberty to discuss.  I'll just say that a close friend's brother in law is a major player in the local media scene. (Lots of stories strictly OFF the record).  I would also throw in the totally unrealistic cost estimates that were put out to sell the county on Citizen's Square.  If the REAL costs had been divulged, that project might have faced a LOT more opposition.  There was also a LOT of money wasted on change orders to satisfy the egos of local government employees and elected officials (the mayor included) that should have NEVER been allowed. 

Well, as far as riverfront development goes, I can say that that's not so much the case (hiring consultants until someone says the right thing, etc). It's a shame they had to hire a riverfront consultant to give HWJ any more credence than it had already earned, though

Well, everyone wants cover if the whole thing goes south on them.   My view is that if you can make a strong enough case for what you're doing and get the support of the public, you don't need the consultants.  As I said, I support the riverfront development, but I have already seen too much of the "we're going to do this, and we don't really care what your concerns are."  The vote on the tax increase for it was just one example.  The skids in favor of that were so well greased, the public never stood a chance.  In my opinion, that should have gone up for a public vote.  By the way, what's up with the city now wanting the Pepsi property for their own deal?

Pepsi is hot and cold about moving - but we still have the former NKP yard and NYC yard to develop.

Mayor Henry and city council do whatever they please. Apparently not enough residents are that unhappy with the whole thing, as they always seem to get re-elected. 

nathansixchime posted:

Pepsi is hot and cold about moving - but we still have the former NKP yard and NYC yard to develop.

I was always in favor of the Omisource property because of the sheer amount of traffic that would go by it every day, and possible tie-ins with Science Central being right across the street.  My vision was always a big window in the side of the roundhouse backlit at night so that every car going down Clinton Street would look in and see a big shiny 765, or maybe even towed outside for a few hours and lit with floodlights announcing to the world "Here we are".  Developing that property would seem to make the zoo train routing easier too.   I had kind of grown used to the Pepsi property proposal too, but I wonder if long term that might have caused issues with more local residents.  West Wayne would seem to be a last resort just because of it being so out of the way.  I know plenty of lifetime Fort Wayne residents who have no idea that area is even there.  I can't imagine why Pepsi would want to stay downtown though.  That is a TERRIBLE location for what they do.  This isn't just a holdup for more money is it?

There's actually been a site selected for them near the 469 Interchange and a building they could use. The land they're on now has been appraised between 2-3 million, but the cost to move is pretty significant. Depending on who you speak to at Pepsi, it just changes too often for us to be able to plan. The Omnisource site may eventually - after everything - be where it lands, but we've also included West Wayne as part of our request with Norfolk Southern.

steam fan posted:

Mayor Henry and city council do whatever they please. Apparently not enough residents are that unhappy with the whole thing, as they always seem to get re-elected. 

While Allen County is heavily Republican, the City of Fort Wayne is pretty solidly Democrat, and I doubt we'll ever see another Republican mayor.    Even the last Republican mayor was a pedal to the metal lefty.  Council seems to take a go-along to get along approach.  Nobody there seems to have much concern with losing their job.

NathanSixChime, have you or anybody at the Fort Wayne Society have discussed about possibly buying NKP 587 and finishing her restoration? I honestly think she would be a good candidate for running when NKP 765 goes down for her overhaul. I would love to see number 587 back in action. I've never seen it before unless you count the home videos people have made and the 587 movie that was made circa 2000, I think.

Well the FWRHS has a LOT on their plate right now, and already have ONE Mikado to fix up.  Right now they wouldn't even have room to keep #587 inside, so that would be an issue.  If all else fails with the ITM, I would like to think that the FWRHS could be a last resort safe haven for #587, but I hope it doesn't get to that point.  The cost to move the engine ANYWHERE is going to be expensive, and that money has to come from somewhere.

nathansixchime posted:

There's actually been a site selected for them near the 469 Interchange and a building they could use. The land they're on now has been appraised between 2-3 million, but the cost to move is pretty significant. Depending on who you speak to at Pepsi, it just changes too often for us to be able to plan. The Omnisource site may eventually - after everything - be where it lands, but we've also included West Wayne as part of our request with Norfolk Southern.

It's ALWAYS good to have a plan B and even C on something like this.  I'm just surprised Pepsi would drag their feet on this.  Coca Cola moved out of the inner city at least 25 years ago, and they were less land locked then Pepsi is.   I didn't think the Pepsi facility was much more than offices and a warehouse. I'm surprised moving would be THAT big of a deal.   I have confidence that wherever HJ ends up, it will be first class, and I want it to be out where the whole world can see it, but you have to play the hand you are dealt.

Dieselbob posted:

Well the FWRHS has a LOT on their plate right now, and already have ONE Mikado to fix up.  Right now they wouldn't even have room to keep #587 inside, so that would be an issue.  If all else fails with the ITM, I would like to think that the FWRHS could be a last resort safe haven for #587, but I hope it doesn't get to that point.  The cost to move the engine ANYWHERE is going to be expensive, and that money has to come from somewhere.

Really? I didn't know. Which Mikado are they restoring?

FutureRail Productions posted:

NathanSixChime, have you or anybody at the Fort Wayne Society have discussed about possibly buying NKP 587 and finishing her restoration? I honestly think she would be a good candidate for running when NKP 765 goes down for her overhaul. I would love to see number 587 back in action. I've never seen it before unless you count the home videos people have made and the 587 movie that was made circa 2000, I think.

I think it's safe to say we aren't interested in 587 - especially because it's a little distasteful to speculate on poaching another organization's equipment just because they're in a challenging situation.

FutureRail Productions posted:

Really? I didn't know. Which Mikado are they restoring?

As for the other Mikado...

We're providing technical and mechanical oversight to the project, so only a small team from FWRHS will be working on 624 throughout the near future. The 765 is and will always remain the FWRHS' focus, but we've gotten creative in figuring out how to make progress elsewhere. For instance...

Thanks for the reply! Much appreciated!

Signed,

FutureRail Productions