Not a good beginning for my DCS experience!

John,

I'd almost bet that the culprit was the Legacy engine interfering with the DCS signal.

Since you already have my book, look at the bottom of page 152 for a complete explanation of how TMCC and Legacy engines, and other things, can degrade the DCS signal, and how to correct the problem.

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

The run vs shut down when signal is lost hat has been debated a lot. In your situation a shut down would have been nice, but when a shutdown happens while it's in a tunnel on the far side of the layout, running would have been nice.

I see benefits of both, I think I prefer shut down to crash

I think you are absolutely correct about this, Barry. I try not to run Legacy and DCS on the same channel. I haven't had any problems since. It may not be the most elegant solution but it seems to be the most certain for me.

Bob Di Stefano

SkyHook it has nothing to do with DCS vs Legacy controls or signals. It has to do with the fact the DCS signal degrades in the presence of voltage lighting present on several manufacturers engines and cars.

You can install RF Chokes or convince MTH to fix the signals (somehow)

Those are your words not mine, pal. I merely indicated that there is a problem running both legacy and DCS at the same time on the same channel. There is no evidence that installing the chokes is the complete answer to the problem. There are many operators who have reported on this forum as well as others that the chokes were ineffective in solving the problem. I am essentially a DCS operator with only two Atlas RS-1's w/ TMCC on my layout, so not running the units concurrently on the same same channel is not a hardship for me.

Bob Di Stefano

Chris,

It has to do with the fact the DCS signal degrades in the presence of voltage lighting present on several manufacturers engines and cars.

That's not entirely correct.

It is true that CV boards can degrade the DCS signal, as well as some, but not all, Legacy or TMCC engines that do or do not have CV boards. This is clearly spelled out in my book.

Further, I've personally had TMCC and Legacy engines that don't have a CV board degrade the DCS signal. The fix in all cases has been to insert an RF choke in the Hot wire of the offending engine or car.

Regardless, starting a useless brand argument is most certainly not helping John.

If E-STOP didn't kill the track power, doesn't that necessarily imply a problem between remote and TIU, not TIU and engine?

questions moved

none answered

I've either been lucky or have been buying the non effected engines... Never had a DCS engine affected by a Legacy or TMCC engine.

Hi all,

The E-STOP button did not kill the track power

If E-STOP didn't kill the track power, doesn't that necessarily imply a problem between remote and TIU, not TIU and engine?

It sure does.

the failure happens on an two remotes, so it's not likely it's the remote.

John, it sounds like you may have a loose transceiver board in the TIU.  Take out the six #1 phillips screws on the bottom of the TIU and remove the top cover.  Gently push down on the transceiver board (has a small black antenna sticking out of it) and see if the problem doesn't go away.  Test the operation of the E-Stop feature with both remotes without any engines running.

Professor,

If E-STOP didn't kill the track power, doesn't that necessarily imply a problem between remote and TIU, not TIU and engine?

That depends.

When a PS2 engine is not obeying the remote, the remote will wait, some times of rip to a  minute, while it retries sending the command and listens for an acknowledgment form the engine. If the remote was retrying and waiting for such an acknowledgement from the TIU when you pressed E-Stop, the E-Stop would not have been executed.

The easiest way to determine if the Legacy engine is the source of the problem is to do the following:

• Tether the remote to the TIU and start up the PS2 engine.
• Power up the Legacy engine and start it moving slowly toward s the PS2 engine.
• Start the engine doing a track signal test.
• Monitor the DCS signal as the Legacy engine gets closer to the PS2 engine.

If the signal begins to degrade, the Legacy engine is the problem. If not, the problem lies elsewhere, perhaps in the TIU as Dave suggests.

Gosh, I hate when stuff like this happens!    We drift to our hobby to get AWAY from problems like this.  Life can be tough enough sometimes.  Don't ya just love it when the trains roll as they should?  Let us know what you find out, John.  Best of luck!

David

I tried running the PS2 locomotive slowly around with the Legacy locomotive parked on a siding right next to the track (common power drop).  I never saw anything but a 10 on signal strength.

I tried running three locomotives on the same track, a TMCC, the same Legacy one, and the PS2 locomotive.  I still didn't see any signal strength running them on a loop that's about 60 feet total.

The issue here is this seems very random.  I ran those for some time, at least 20 minutes, and I didn't have the problem.  However, previously, the issue would surface within 15-20 minutes.  The symptoms always seemed the same, the remote didn't indicate there was any problem, the active engine (the only PS2 one on the track) was displayed.  The problem was that the remote would do nothing, no whistle, throttle, or E-STOP.  When I moved the track to the second fixed output (after discovering the first one had to be powered too), I didn't see the issue.

Truthfully, if the DCS system doesn't execute the emergency stop anytime you push the button, that's a MAJOR design fault!  That should obviously override any other signal.  What use is the E-STOP if it can wait a minute while it thinks about it before executing the command.  It's an EMERGENCY, or I wouldn't be pushing the button!  I doubt I can anticipate a crash or emergency situation that far in advance, those that do clearly have much more developed capabilities than I do!

David, trains always roll as they should with my Legacy system.  What was I thinking?

Uh oh John! Now you've started it!

Do you have that TIU connected in passive mode?

Just be patient.  Again ask the questions.  The DCS guys will get you going.

When you hit the e-stop button, is there a click in the TIU.  There should be, which requires power be shut to it and to the remote to reset.  If the click isn't there, the buitton in the remote might be bad.  If the remote needs to be shut down and restarted the button is ood but something elese is wrong.

John;

How about supplying aux power to the TIU and trying Fixed channel 2 for a while.

If your troubles do not recure, sounds like a problem with Fixed 1, which should qualify for a warrantee repair.

I may have just been lucky all these years, but I have no interference between any PS-2 engines and my TMCC engines at all. I don't have any Legacy engines.

Rod

Nope, didn't even know that's an option.  Transformer power to input one, track on output 1, no other connections.

Well, I probably won't toss it in the trash today.

Nothing happens in the TIU, the locomotive just continues whatever it was doing, and no buttons do anything on the remote.

This happens with both remotes, so the chance of a bad button is pretty small.

I did a jumper from channel 1 to channel 2 input and ran that way for a spell.  I didn't get a failure, though it's so random that I don't know if that was a definitive test.  I'll have to find a suitable power supply and try aux power.

One thing I don't like about the TIU is there is no indication of the remote talking to the TIU.  How tough would it have been to put an LED on it to let you know that the remote was in contact?

That is why I threw a headset phone cord on there first thing. Wireless is all ok, but not the end all be all... Not to mention the Airforce flying sorties in a turn above day and night.

You will find the receptacle in the bottom of your DCS remote.

Hi John,

Barry is correct.  Try tethering the remote with a telephone handset cord (the curly cord - most have 4 wires, not just 2) to test the remote-TIU communications.  That's easier than jumping straight to opening the TIU.  If the trouble goes away with the remote tethered than proceed with opening the TIU.

If that doesn't work, Rod's suggestion of trying Fixed channel 2 is a good one.

Also, If the problem reoccurs, look in the TIU and see if the red LED is still on.

I'm taking this all in, the locomotive is running around in the large loop as we speak, occasionally I stab the whistle to see if it's still responding.

What exactly is the red light indicating?

John;

Your question above would have been a good idea, kind of like the TMCC command base indicator.

While you are running on Fixed 2, I would be testing occasionally to see if E-stop works.

As was said above, it seems like that should override everything else that is going on regardless.

Whatever, don't give up the ship. My first foray into DCS was a little shakey, but after picking up a few ideas and suggestions from the knowledgeable folks on the forum, I have never looked back.

Rod

If the DCS isnot communication with the engine, or the DCS signal is weak, you will get "Check Track" messages frequently. If you don't see this, all should be well.

The red LED inside the TIU indicates it is powered up, and the number of times it blinks when first powered up indicates its assigned number, from 1 to 5. The default setting is #1, unless user changed.

Rod

I have never seen a check track message at any time.  Like I said, I had 10's all around both loops when I ran the signal check pass at slow speed.

I did notice that signal strength jumps all over when you're cookin' along at higher speeds, is that normal?  I recall reading that slow speed was where you should check it.  Also, is it normal for the sound on the locomotive to cut out when you start checking signal strength?

John,

I did notice that signal strength jumps all over when you're cookin' along at higher speeds, is that normal? I recall reading that slow speed was where you should check it.

Yes, it is. At speed, the "real world" intrudes. i.e, pickup roller bounce, etc. Most accurate results are obtained when standing still.

 Also, is it normal for the sound on the locomotive to cut out when you start checking signal strength?

Yes, it is.

Well, at least those things aren't broken!

John

Did you get the book?

Oops I see that you did...

I got the book Marty, my RR obviously doesn't read the book!

Maybe you should throw the book at it.

OK, now that's funny!   Didn't have an effect except to knock the remote off the table, but funny anyway.

John,

If you're really going to throw the book at the railroad, you're much better off with the printed edition. The eBook edition just won't get the job done properly.

Not so fast Barry, I first wrote it to a 5.25" hard disk, then threw that!

Hi John,

FWIW, whenever I hit the remote's red emergency stop, all 4 channels die immediately as though that button has top priority (immediate CPU interrupt) over waiting for replies or whatever it was doing.  It has always been immediate, STAT.  Running 3.1 if that matters.

Sam,

That's how I thought it should work.  When I lose control, no buttons work.  An interesting thing too, I can't power down the remote until I turn off the TIU power.

One other point.  With all the Lionel stuff on sidings and powered off, the issue still cropped up, so we can dispense with the notion that a TMCC locomotive is causing the issue.

I'm running 4.2, and the batteries are brand new.

I currently have two PS2 locomotives chasing each other on the track and they've run for quite a spell without stopping.  This is like a major PITA, I really don't know how to force the failure!

It happened with two remotes (the other one has 4.10 and new batteries).  I haven't gotten around to upgrading that one yet, but since it fails with the new remote with 4.2, I can't see that being the issue.

Hi John,

The mismatch of v4.10 and 4.20 won't cause a problem.  Do upgrade eventually, but don't worry about that right now.

Have you gone the last several hours without the problem cropping up?  If it did crop up, did you try tethering the remote to the TIU's?

An interesting thing too, I can't power down the remote until I turn off the TIU power.

I don't think that's actually possible.  If the remote freed up when the TIU was powered down it's a coincidence.