PSX-AC's, PH-180's and analog volt & amp meters

I am surprised no one had a reply yet.

I would place PSX-AC on the output side of the TIU with the choke. Also, the PSX_AC default setting is ~4.8A

I don't recall if the PSX-AC includes voltage spike protection(TVS) If not, add one on the output of the PSX-AC.

I would call the MTH block "buss blocks" since that how it is configured. One in, multiple out for both hot and common.

The meters should be right after the power source. The fact that the 180PH would break first may be that you have raised the default setting in The PSX-AC or the breaker in the 180 is faster acting.

The ammeter would be the culprit. Is it self-contained or does it need an external shunt? It adds a very small amount of resistance to the circuit.

I think it should be 180PH>meters>TIU input>TIU output>PSX-AC>TVS>Track or add a set of meters on each output of the TIU>PSX-AC>TVS>Track in addition to monitoring the 180PH output.

Why does the TPC need to be there?

Need GRJ, Stan or Cjack to explain the why on the pass through with the one configuration that you used. I am still not sure what the ammeter will do to the DCS signal.

That makes two of us on the replies, thought more folks would be interested in this one? Thanks for the reply.

I have the PSX-AC on the 8 amp setting and I have tested it on the bench many times before installing. The PH-180 has a very fast breaker, but the PSX-AC is faster. To be fair the PH-180 is 10 amp and I am using the 8 amp PSX-AC setting, so that might be swaying things a bit in the PSX-AC's favor. The PSX-AC does include spike protection, it is a very impressive device with even features not mentioned here.

With the meters after the PSX, the PSX still tripped a second or so before the PH-180, but did not stop the PH-180 from tripping, that's what was puzzling me. In re-wiring, I now have the PH-180 going directly to the meters and then the PSX, then TIU. This works as it did before adding the meters, the PSX trips and the PH-180 does not trip. And no choke is required this way.

Will have to check, but I was thinking Barry's book recommended that circuit breakers be on the TIU inputs, which is where I have them. However, it has been a while since I have read anything from the book and my memory ain't what it used to be. I have a Rev LTIU with fuses and TVS' and I have followed the book with my wiring and other recommended items and it is all working very well so far. Maybe I'll get the book out tomorrow and do some catching up.

You might be right about the ammeter being the culprit, it is self contained as far as I can tell. It is just a cheapie analog one from ebay (one of the many available from China with free shipping). The product information was pretty lacking as most of those items are. Anyway it seems to be reading correctly with my cheapie Harbor Freight clamp on meter.

I don't always explain things too well, but I don't have a TPC, that was someone else from another thread that was paralleling 2 PH-180's and trying to use a PSX-AC on the TIU outputs. As I recall this did not work with DCS and GRJ sized a choke for him, which did the trick. 20 amps for one output is too much for me. I have blocks and will stick with the 10 amps from just one PH-180. 20 amps is kind of scary, I get visions of my PS3 boards all welded together in a big melted lump!

I am also hoping that GRJ, Stan or Cjack or any of the other electronics folks will chime in here, I would be interested in their opinions. If I do move the PSX's to the outputs, I will probably have to ask GRJ to help me size a choke for this setup, as I don't really know the proper way to do that?

Your current configuration seems good.

Do you have a set of meters for each TIU input that you are using?

A meter is a meter. Cheapie from anywhere doesn't mean it's not measuring properly. The built in shunt or electronics is not the cheapie meter.

The protection built within the device is there to protect the device, not the trains. A TVS the across the track power connection(s) at the track will provide that for you. That's all that I see missing from your configuration. The closer the TVS is to the item to be protected, the better it will work.

Perhaps, contacting PSX mfg and asking why placing a set of meters between the device and track would change it's performance would be the best source for answer.

Making a diagram would definitely make things easier. Use Paint with shapes and lines and text to label. Open this up with paint and add specific labels (TIU fixed or variable) and red and black lines for the wiring an edit accordingly for your as built. Oops, I left out the terminal buss blocks.

Like Carl says, a diagram makes it a lot clearer.  Trying to interpret what is being done from the description hurts my head.

Some good discussion on the PSX-AC.  Since I do not have any meters, plus I have a different setup than rtr12, my setup really won’t help answer any of rtr12’s questions.  However, I thought I’d mention a couple of things I found with the PSX.

As reference to what I’m doing, below are the two diagrams I’m using for track power.  The PM ‘s are used on my various yards/ terminals/ sidings where 8 amps is plenty of power.  The TPCs are used on the three main lines to power my trains with the PSX set at 15.4 amps.  I only need the TIUs for engine control, and they are wired in passive mode for two reasons.  One, they can’t handle the 15.4 amps to the main line and two not having to run the power wires through the TIU allows me to keep the power wires shorter.  I’m sure John and others will comment on my TPC use, but I have shorted the track in this configuration with very little spark.  The PSX is very fast.

The PSX-AC WILL interfere with the DCS signal.  I did a simple track signal test with and without the choke John recommended and there was a significant difference (see diagram).  I would think putting the PSX on the input side to the TIU would be the better choice, plus no choke will be required.  Putting the PSX on the output side of the TIU with the choke between the PSX and track should also work but increases complexity and cost a bit.   I am looking at adding meters to my setup, with them attached to the A and U posts of the PM/TPC.

I'd be tempted to use the choke, even from the input side.  I don't know for sure what protection from shunting the signal exists within the TIU, if there already have a choke, then it would be unnecessary.

Ok, will attempt a 'Paint' drawing...be back in a few hours. If that fails, it may be a scanned pencil & paper drawing. I will try to be neat.

CAPPilot, what do you use to make your drawings? I need something that's fairly easy and better than Paint to make some drawings of different tings, his is an example od one. I can't do anything near that nice in Paint.

I use PowerPoint to make the original drawing, then I 'Save As' a .jpg file so I can post it on the forum as a picture.  If you have access to PowerPoint, attached is the original file you can use for the diagrams.

Microsoft has a free PowerPoint viewer, so anyone can see these if they like.

Ok, I just did them by hand. Here they are.

The first one is what I followed for the meter wiring, it's something I saved from here on the forum from another discussion.

Second is the way I had things at first. This tripped the PSX-AC and then a second or two later tripped the PH-180. How is the question?

Third is the way I re-wired them yesterday. This just trips the PSX-AC and not the PH-180.

I added a pdf and RR-track plan of my current layout showing the blocks and all the tracks. It is getting ready to change soon, so that isn't the permanent plan.

CAPPilot, I think I do have PowerPoint. I will save your drawing and check it out. Thank you! I didn't know you could draw like that with PowerPoint, actually I have never used it, only seen presentations from it back during my working life.

Added: I do have PowerPoint and your file works great, Thanks again!

Unless the meters are defective in some manner, I don't see how they're affecting the circuit at all.  If it works properly without the meters, they're the top suspect.

The meters seem to be reading fairly accurately and appear to be working. I don't get it? I can't see how the short was getting backward through the PSX with the meters on the output of the PSX and not when the meters were on the input of the PSX? I would think it has to be something with the meters though?

I'm considering Moonman's suggestion of calling the PSX folks to see if they can shed some light on what is happening here.

I just ran a longer signal test with the current configuration (3nd picture) and had all 10's for 3 laps around each track at 15 smph. On the first lap of the outer track it dropped to 9 on one curve section, but was 10 for the next 2 laps. Tis was with a PS3 engine, I don't have any PS2's out right now, still packed away from last years move (I'm a little behind schedule, train is running late so to speak). 

Not sure I need them, but what choke should I use to add on to each TIU channel? Any recommendations would be appreciated as I don't know how to size these things.

I will probably be ending up with all 4 TIU channels being used, so I would like to get 4 chokes now, just in case they become needed later on, or the PSX's get moved to the TIU outputs. I don't see a need to move them yet, but if anyone has advice otherwise, I can easily move them and will already have the chokes to add.

Thanks for any and all input.

I do have a set of meters for each TIU input, however I am currently only using the 2 fixed TIU channels, the others are coming into service with an expansion, probably next year or so.

I have been thinking about adding a TVS at my MTH terminal block inputs from the TIU outputs, before the track blocks are fed from the terminal block. Actually I have a dozen or so TVS', but just haven't installed them yet.

I don't think GRJ was sure how this was happening either, so I might call the PSX folks and ask for assistance and see what they have to say. It has to be back feeding through the PSX, but who knows how?

Thanks for the Paint file, but I ended up with hand drawings posted a while ago. Paint and I don't always play well together, and it usually wins the battle.

The PSX on the TIU input seems to work without the choke, I did a test a while ago with the results in a previous post above. The meters are a different story. If you add them where you are planning, on the output of the TPC and PM and before the PSX you should be ok. Putting them after the PSX is where I had the problem.

I don't recall getting any sparks yet from shorting the PSX's, and I fiddles with them on the bench for a while before using them on my layout. The only time I got a spark was when I shorted the PSX output terminals directly at the terminal. If there was a foot or so of wire after the PSX to a piece of test track, no sparking.

I do have Legacy, but don't have any of the Lionel extras (PM/TPC, etc.) so I have everything going through the TIU. Currently only using the 2 fixed channels are used with plans to use the other 2 in an addition in a year or so. I have command control stuff only so I am pretty well set (I think) without any additional items. Will probably add an AIU at some point for switches or accessories or something?

Thanks for the PowerPoint file, I have it and it is working. Going to modify it to my wiring setup.

Possibly the inductance of the ammeter might be affecting the response time of the PSX-AC. The internal shunt resistor is likely a wire wound device plus the meter movement itself. Precision ammeters use shunt resistors with low inductance. Cheapies, probably not.

RTR, you might try inserting only the voltmeter between the PSX and the track and see if that alone affects which device trips first.

Pete

That's one way of doing it.  I have done it a little different..  Transformer to TPC300 split to two outputs feeding two PSX each feeding a fixed input of a TIU.  Each channel goes to a amp meter and volt meter then to one of the mainlines.

https://ogrforum.com/t...070#3259945170349070

I definitely don't have the precision meters, I think they were like $6-7 each with free shipping. The PSX still trips first in either configuration of my diagrams above. With the PSX before the meters, the PSX trips and about 1-2 seconds later the PH-180 trips. With the PSX tripped, the PH-180 should be out of the picture, but for some reason it is not and still trips? This is the puzzling part. With the PSX after the meters it all works as expected, PSX trips and that's it until I reset it.

I might try the volt meter alone (removing the ammeter) after the PSX just to see what happens, but it is working fine now with the meters before the PSX, so I will probably just leave it as is. I am still going to call and ask about it though. As GRJ said I think the meters are suspect, but it all does work depending on where you put the meters. It's just odd.

I remember reading your thread a year or so ago. Will have to go back and re-read it as I don't remember all the details too well.

I might give your setup a try (meters after the TIU) and see if that makes any difference. Not sure what the TIU would change, but when I have the PH-180 directly to the PSX, then meters, then TIU, I was getting the strange results as described above. The PH-180's are quite sensitive and trip very fast also. I don't have a TPC and don't know much about them, but don't they have a very fast breaker in them also, like the PH-180? I know you can parallel 2 PH-180's with them, and that's a lot of power.

I may have gremlins? Had a strange problem with my Legacy system when I first got it in September. Yesterday the phones all quit working. Today I found a short in a cat 5 wire to the phone jack in the kitchen. It's a new house, we moved in last Sept. and phones had been working fine for over a year then just quit yesterday. The meters and PSX irregularities seem to fit right in here. Wonder what will be next?

I was suggesting putting the Voltmeter between the breaker and the track just to test a theory. The voltmeter is just a big resistor and draws negligable current. All of the current passes through the ammeter. My money is on the ammeter that is causing the anomaly. 

Pete

I understood, just haven't tried it yet. Will try to do it tomorrow or Friday and report back. Haven't called about the PSX's yet either. Been trying to organize the mess I have down here, and the mess is winning.

You know what, I'll have to go back and check.  My amp meters might be between the PSX and the TIU.  I know for sure the volt meters are connected after the TIU.  Will advise.