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I have two loops on my layout as of yesterday both worked. Today one of the loops does get up to power. Both are powered by the same ZW and testing the output from the ZW I get at least 18V out for each loop at the transformer. When I check the output to the loops at get 18V on one and about 3V on the other. I have removed all the rolling stock from the loop and have visually checked for any thing lying across or in between the tracks. THe circuit breaker does not trip on the ZW or the red light flash or glow. I tried powering the loop with a Z-4000 and got the same results. However the red light flashed but the circuit breaker did not trip.

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I would use a vom meter and set it to ohms, disconnect the track  power connecter where the power is fed from. when you sure you disconnected use the ohm meter  to check if there is a direct short from center rail to outer rail or some low ohm value 6 ohms 4 ohms etc. , you should not have a direct short or your breaker will trip! I'll bet  you find no short then check from center rail to center rail around your layout I'm guessing you find some  resistance higher ohms maybe even complete open or even a higher resistance. if you do I would suspect you have a poor connection between center rail to center rail causing this issue I have seen it before on older layouts  especially if there in a damp basement !if you find this issue you don't have to dismantle your layout to replace the pins you can install jumpers from one rail to the next and solder on the side of one rail to the next. a lot of time corrosion sets in inside where the track pin goes between the pin and the inside of the track. this is the easiest fix I know you can do and not have to tear your layout apart to get it working again!

p.s. let us all know how you  make out and good lluck!\

Alan

Here's a trick I've used on old strings of Christmas lights. If you've got a wireless phone (the kind with a base unit and an antenna), use the handset to look for radio interference. You'll have to have power to your track to do this. If there is sparking somewhere, the handset will pick it up. Of course you need to turn on the phone to pick up the dial tone. Listen carefully for static noise. It should be more noticeable near the problem area.

A cheap walkie-talkie set would probably work in the same way; I haven't tried that.

It all depends on what kind of problem it is. I was able to locate bad sockets and bulbs in the string of Christmas lights without having to check each socket.

Ok. That rules out metal ties. Do you get a spark when you disconnect that loop? Your best bet is the suggestion of others. Split the track until you find the problem section. It sounds like you don't have any blocks, which makes it a little harder. If you are absolutely sure there is nothing on the track, you might start with the switches. Are they motorized?

I agree, likely switches if it's wood ties. Check for debris near the point rails of course.  A single loose wire strand broken off and landing in the wrong spot sounds very plausible as a foriegn cause.  Try working the switches to move debris and then leaving them in the opposing position. One by one so you know which needs attention. Don't group fix attempts or you won't know what you did right. Process of elimination takes diligence.

If the track is ballasted, or attached in way that would be a pita to remove, consider cutting the center rails via dremel to create a block for each switch.  Reconnecting the blocks by wire afterwards if everything checks out ok.

The "Lemonade": Should anything like this happen again, it will be much easier to check quickly if each switch is on it's own block. 

Using terminal blocks vs splices in layout design also helps with speeding diagnostics like this. Few folk like to think about that though. If they aren't there, you may want to add some while doing this.

The Z4 flashing but not tripping tells me it's very light short, the Z4 likely thinks it's just a heavy loco draw (a single wire strand could do this). As mentioned, it may not be readable by ohms. It's no gaurantee that you can find it by voltage drop either, but testing with low voltage and slowly increasing it slightly as you test may help.

I don't know where he got it or who made it, but a pals dad, now passed, had an automotive short detector that could find even partially damaged wire inside insulation. It was as simple as grounding it and passing the tip along a wire.  I will call later to ask more, but the son has strange work hours, and might not call back until Sat. (I want to know more anyhow, he passed a few days after I saw it used.) It likely uses induction or a special circuit to perform Leo's phone static trick (which is pretty cool , right up there with seeing IR light with a digital camera/phone )

dkdkrd posted:
cjack posted:

Or...after it's been on, maybe feel along the track for a warmer spot. Careful though!

Or simply wait for the smoke to curl upwards. 

THERE'S the problem!!

.....just kidding, of course!

LOL!, did that one time in my younger days!  Automotive related, not train related.  Kept blowing a fuse once or twice a month.  Several weeks of exhaustive searching and testing produced no results.  Finally gave up in disgust and replaced the fuse with a short piece of brass tubing.  Figured I'd find that intermittent short one way or another.  And one day about a week later, yeah I did find it!  Took off down the street, and all of a sudden smoke started coming out from under the hood!  Yanked the brass tube quick-like, pulled over, and checked under the hood.  Finally found the culprit - a single wire had cut through the insulation and would short out on a sharp metal edge of the inner fender well (probably if I hit a fairly big bump while driving).  Smoked the wire of course, had to replace about 3 feet of it.

The moral of this story?  Never let teenagers look for electrical shorts.  They'll find 'em!!! 

 

It's too late to help the OP, but this highlights one of the reasons I suggest that, when designing a layout, one use many toggle-switched blocks.  Not only does this give added operational flexibility especially when running conventional, but it permits one to isolate shorts to a small area.  Also, you can keep the layout operating except for the shorted area.

On my layout, every track switch marks the end of 3 blocks; I sever any under-switch interconnections.

Mixed Freight posted:
dkdkrd posted:
cjack posted:

Or...after it's been on, maybe feel along the track for a warmer spot. Careful though!

Or simply wait for the smoke to curl upwards. 

THERE'S the problem!!

.....just kidding, of course!

LOL!, did that one time in my younger days!  Automotive related, not train related.  Kept blowing a fuse once or twice a month.  Several weeks of exhaustive searching and testing produced no results.  Finally gave up in disgust and replaced the fuse with a short piece of brass tubing.  Figured I'd find that intermittent short one way or another.  And one day about a week later, yeah I did find it!  Took off down the street, and all of a sudden smoke started coming out from under the hood!  Yanked the brass tube quick-like, pulled over, and checked under the hood.  Finally found the culprit - a single wire had cut through the insulation and would short out on a sharp metal edge of the inner fender well (probably if I hit a fairly big bump while driving).  Smoked the wire of course, had to replace about 3 feet of it.

The moral of this story?  Never let teenagers look for electrical shorts.  They'll find 'em!!! 

 

It’s better to replace the fuse with a turn signal bulb and flex all the wiring until the bulb lights. Less distructive.

Adriatic posted:

I agree, likely switches if it's wood ties. Check for debris near the point rails of course.  A single loose wire strand broken off and landing in the wrong spot sounds very plausible as a foriegn cause.  Try working the switches to move debris and then leaving them in the opposing position. One by one so you know which needs attention. Don't group fix attempts or you won't know what you did right. Process of elimination takes diligence.

If the track is ballasted, or attached in way that would be a pita to remove, consider cutting the center rails via dremel to create a block for each switch.  Reconnecting the blocks by wire afterwards if everything checks out ok.

The "Lemonade": Should anything like this happen again, it will be much easier to check quickly if each switch is on it's own block. 

Using terminal blocks vs splices in layout design also helps with speeding diagnostics like this. Few folk like to think about that though. If they aren't there, you may want to add some while doing this.

The Z4 flashing but not tripping tells me it's very light short, the Z4 likely thinks it's just a heavy loco draw (a single wire strand could do this). As mentioned, it may not be readable by ohms. It's no gaurantee that you can find it by voltage drop either, but testing with low voltage and slowly increasing it slightly as you test may help.

I don't know where he got it or who made it, but a pals dad, now passed, had an automotive short detector that could find even partially damaged wire inside insulation. It was as simple as grounding it and passing the tip along a wire.  I will call later to ask more, but the son has strange work hours, and might not call back until Sat. (I want to know more anyhow, he passed a few days after I saw it used.) It likely uses induction or a special circuit to perform Leo's phone static trick (which is pretty cool , right up there with seeing IR light with a digital camera/phone )

The probe senses a strong magnetic field caused by the short.

cjack posted:
Mixed Freight posted:
dkdkrd posted:
cjack posted:

Or...after it's been on, maybe feel along the track for a warmer spot. Careful though!

Or simply wait for the smoke to curl upwards. 

THERE'S the problem!!

.....just kidding, of course!

LOL!, did that one time in my younger days!  Automotive related, not train related.  Kept blowing a fuse once or twice a month.  Several weeks of exhaustive searching and testing produced no results.  Finally gave up in disgust and replaced the fuse with a short piece of brass tubing.  Figured I'd find that intermittent short one way or another.  And one day about a week later, yeah I did find it!  Took off down the street, and all of a sudden smoke started coming out from under the hood!  Yanked the brass tube quick-like, pulled over, and checked under the hood.  Finally found the culprit - a single wire had cut through the insulation and would short out on a sharp metal edge of the inner fender well (probably if I hit a fairly big bump while driving).  Smoked the wire of course, had to replace about 3 feet of it.

The moral of this story?  Never let teenagers look for electrical shorts.  They'll find 'em!!! 

 

It’s better to replace the fuse with a turn signal bulb and flex all the wiring until the bulb lights. Less distructive.

The circuit?  The dash panel lights and all the tail lights.  The short?  Ended up being a small marker light on the left FRONT fender.

In retrospect, I guarantee I'da NEVER, EVER found THAT problem, no matter what I did, outside of a complete new wiring harness (which would have cost ten times more than the vehicle was worth).  So even if the vehicle had totally burned up, at least I would have had the satisfaction of finally finding that elusive short!!! 

RJR's method is sound as well.  Just another version of process of elimination. If you can't find heat you will have to isolate things somehow. How you do it is the choice.  

(the short reader went to a stepbrother, that is a dead end on info from this spot. Im thinking it may have come from a KD autoparts store (KD makes good automotive tools).

(hey, you can look at wire temp as well. They have a static temp just like everything else. Terminals and splices should be a tad hotter than wire lengths... I don't know how accurate your probe might be though.)

Similar, but his was rated higher or he used it beyond 12v...  24v at least for the boat ... he showed me it worked on ac too, but I never played with it. (He liked having tools and info others didn't; so I often played his game ) I don't want to recommend on guess alone either. 

 Do you have any experience with this Bobby?

I think it would work out if you fed the track dc. A  bridg rectifier to get 12vDC, maybe a capacitor to smooth it...$5-ish+ $35... $40ish.... might be worth it depending on who's buying and how deep thier pockets are.  I'm kinda surprised I never ended up with one really. It sure would have sped a few jobs up.

BobbyD posted:
Adriatic posted:

(the short reader went to a stepbrother, that is a dead end on info from this spot. Im thinking it may have come from a KD autoparts store (KD makes good automotive tools).

Could it be the KD 2524 Short Circuit Detector tool?

That looks like an interesting device. Along with Adriatic I would also like to know of any experiences you might have with it. While looking there was another one that did go up to 24v. I'll post a link if I can find it again. As a FYI, National Tool has the KD2524 for about $30, didn't check shipping as we have one close by, but it was the lowest price I saw. 

Here's the other one, goes up to 42 volts, but says DC.  Allsun Pro Automotive Short and Open Finder Circuit Tester - also about $30 on Amazon, shipping costs unknown. This also seems to be the EM415 PRO on Ebay from Asia for about $24 & free shipping, but may take several weeks to get. Looks like this one is available on Amazon and several other places as well.

I may just have to try one of these...my curiosity is piqued (and I'm a sucker for these types of things) 

Last edited by rtr12

Finally making progress. Cut a whole bunch of wires and spliced them together one by one. The two loops are now working without any shorts but one siding is sill shorted. Need to trace the wiring for that siding. That device looks interesting but the specs say DC.  Wish to know if it really works with AC ar well? 

Do you have cross-over switches between the two loops?

If yes>Have you isolated the center rails between the switch pairs?

Are you powering the switches with an Accessory Power circuit?

Just curious...

If you disconnect the transformer wires at the transformer terminals, there should be no continuity (Ohms test with meter) between the center rail and the outside rails anywhere on the layout.

Also, the hot wire for loop 1 should not have continuity with the hot wire for loop 2.

These tests will proof the track and wiring connections before applying power.

"Specs say DC"

Thats why I'm asking about a manual & better photo; clues to operation. Will it see breaks? actual shorts? both?

Feeding dc to the track shouldn't be a big deal for a test. A wall wart, 9v, or lantern battry should get some result (depending on the amps it may use).  Half wave from existing track power (diode) will likely bounce the needle, but still work.

I'm guessing the reader just contains a magnet, and don't recall how the coil bit was set up. It likely just uses a different coil for each voltage level.  The magnet likely points to the magnetic field created at a short is my guess.  Some searching may even yeild a plan for a homespun version. (instructables site or youtube?)

I'd be wary about feeding a shorted track from a wall wart, since it may get overheated.  I can see how the sensor can detect an open circuit, because the signal it impresses upon the line won't pass the break.  I'm guessing that signal won't go past a short, either.  Looking at the video for the Allsum unit, I don't think any power is to be applied to the circuit other than the signal generated by the gadget. 

Tom, speaking of your propensity for gadgets.  Browsing for the KD tool, led me to the website of its manufacturer, Apex Tools.  Browsing through their website led me to one of their other brands, Weller, which in turn led me to find their new rechargeable soldering gun (12 watt), which I then googled and have ordered from Home Depot.  I have, when I don't want to drag an extension cord over the layout, used a 3-alkaline cell 6-watt Weller to solder wires, and this should be better.

I'm may have to quit this Forum before you guys make me go bankrupt.

RJR, I'm sure you will like the new soldering iron.  You should see the things I have from all the links I find around here! I think they post those links sometimes just for me, as bait!  I can certainly relate to the bankruptcy part too! I may have to stop buying trains so I can keep up with the gadgets! But, I will have an endless supply of gadgets to fiddle with. 

As for the Allsum, I was thinking the same thing as you, no voltage needed? Just a self powered signal tracer? But, then I watched the video and it says 6-42v (DC I think it also said) at the end of the video. And it looked like they connected it to the positive side of the battery. So I am confused? Not sure when they crossed the break if the signal dropped off due to lack of voltage or lack of signal? This could also lead to another purchase for me... If it worked on 120-240v house wiring I might already have it on order. 

Also, it is Northern Tool we have around here, not National as I posted above...I was suffering a slight brain malfunction yesterday. 

I would suggest an adjustable butane iron vs battery and only 12w. My smallest is 25w. My largest used on the layout is a 2 position gun with 200 and 260w. My largest is a 300w iron with a 1" chisel tip (radiator repair)  Butane is measured in BTU, there is a conversion table btu to watts out there somewhere if you wanted to compare that.

  Only use double refined butain or better if you can. They have an internal sandstone type filter that will clog sooner with cheap fuels.(same for most fancy lighters too.

Most wall warts do have an internal fuse, but using one externally would be a good idea.

An ohm meter cannot always see an intermediate short.  It needs a direct short.

The signal (whatever that may be) strength and or it NOT passing is what the short detector sees.  It zeros in on a short by telling you to move left or right, like a stud finder for drywall.   How is the mystery, though likely extremely simple.  I think it could be done by signal or induction or maybe another way....once I see two possibilities my guess of likely becomes just maybe at best   I might look later, but the OP has started a process of elimination... if done slow and correct, the issue is soon to be found

I've had a small butane torch for maybe 50 years, that I would use when flying model airplanes in the middle of the last century.  I don't like using it because I can't just shut it off and turn it on.  Years ago I also had a Wahl Iso-tip but it has been lost for years.  I see they are still made, but have Ni-Cad batteries.

I would agree that these are only good for soldering small wires.  I actually have 3 Weller 8200s which I use for anything heavier and a station for using precision work. in any of the wall warts around the house.

I don't recall seeing indications of a fuse.

The gas company has wires buried alongside the plastic gas lines.  By imposing a signal on the wire, they can use a device above ground to follow the pipe.

When doing 120-volt electrical work, I also use a device that when near a powered conductor beeps, obviously sensing the 60 Hz current.

  •   I just got yellow tube last week or they would have disconnected me. They didn't show yesterday to hook my gas yard lamp up again, worked around the block though... Front of the house looks like crap with the meter outside now too.. I hope someone got a nice kickback at least... For the smart electric meter, they asked a minor who didn't live here for permission to access my property... tresspassing. Also left a 1" unprotected hole in my garage roof without warning me in any way. I need a new roof out there now....BS 
  • Bust a wart open, most have an internal fuse.  Some do say internally fused; most dont indicate anything (they want you to buy new...and not shock those without enough sense to unplug it before servicing it with their tounge) ( I did not mention adding one at first... just highly approved of it.)
  • The battery ones need to heat and cool as well. 
  • The iso-tip is pretty amasing but limited in size and tight spots.
  • The butane does have exhaust to deal with, but turning off the gas for 1 solder or a foil heat sheild was all I ever needed IF it was even needed.
  • I solder hot and fast. I can actually lead to less heat creep and need for heat sinking an item (to prevent heat creep to plastic or insulation, etc.
  • I found my old butane Weller cap was pretty much heat proof. With kids around me, I wasn't too worried about the cap. It never melted. (maybe test the pocket clip on yours?)
  • I used bullets(dots) because the composer has been grouping paragraphs into solid blocks of text.... I think it knows I used to typeset on IBM computers and its teasing me

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