Received my ERR boards Good news- Bad news

Maybe Scott can chime in here. I usually budget about 100 per upgrade, however, I agree with you, we need a more economical solution. 

You can buy the PS3 upgrade for $200 plus shipping and you get all the LEDs with it. You guys arent going to get them any cheaper unless you forget about sound and just do the motors

Folks, most of the items ERR of the past was selling were purchased from the factory over 4 years ago. Today's prices from the factory are higher and there is an additional royalty to pay. That's why there's an increase over previous releases of ERR boards.

Although we can't change these circuit boards, at least they are available now. Otherwise they would have been 2nd hand items you would have to bid on at an auction site with no warranty or service.

One thing we are trying to do is provide dealers the same Kits packed separately with bar-codes so they can put them on the shelf for sale.

Based on feedback we will try to improve the product and add more items for sale along with the Kits such as dual speakers, smoke units and various other products.

We will be eliminating the printed instructions as they are easily accessible on the web site.  electricrr.com

Scott Mann

Scott, 

Much appreciated. Everything goes up. They are still a great value and I plan to keep upgrading my locs. I just recently finished upgrading a 1990 scale s2. Even with the new prices it was way cheaper than buying a new legacy version. I can afford 200 a lot better than 900.

One thing... I have never upgraded anything except our own 3rd Rail Engines using the OEM version of ERR. So if you have this or that engine and want to know what to buy, don't ask me... please put your question up on this forum where there are loads of experienced people. Eventually I will figure it out..

I look at it this way. I have 3 scale GG1's by Williams/Bachmann and one by Williams. The one from Williams I may not touch as it has the original sound system That Jerry did. ( I believe it was QSI ) anyway upgrading them will be down the road as have to many expenses on other things going right now, so it may be $200 each by then, But that still is a lot cheaper than a Lionel or MTH that sell way over $600 each. I have a couple F-units also I want to upgrade (newer Lionel and Williams ) .

I thank Scott for taking the endeavor to take over the ERR boards, but for myself its a thin line if its worthwhile to upgrade engines (I have 6 engines left to upgrade), or sell them and purchase PS3 or Legacy engines as replacements.

Watching auction sites and what conventional engines are going for, adding cost of ERR, price increase, and shipping charges. (sound system was ready along with a 10.00 increase and 20.00 shipping. Then waiting for the command system, and now price increase and another 20.00 shipping), its now a no brainer to either run the remaining engines in conventional, sell them, and slowly replace with newer command engines already installed. I recently won an auction of a ERR installed engine in which the PS2 was replaced with ERR boards etc. For less then what the system would cost me to install in my engine. I sold my engine on auction, a PS1 version for above what I paid for the new engine.

So, at present I have to think and weight if I will be doing any ERR upgrades to remaining engines. Cost and final value will be the deciding factor for any upgrades.

Barrifs and Terriers everywhere

I like the ERR system.  I can install the AC/DC Commander and then come back at a later time and add the sound. I still have 7 more powered engines and 10 sound systems to add ERR too. I plan to up date my engines over the next few years.  I have 3 or 4 dummy engines will sound that I run with my ERR TMCC engines w/o sound. Also I'm mostly Diesel.

I predicted this way back when this all broke.  The whole royalty thing was going to add to the cost.  But did not realize ERR was running on 4 year old stock. Once a component goes obsolete and a redesign of the board is required, there will be more sticker shock.  I have a feeling, TMCC is going the way of PS-1.   Still out their but.....

TMCC is the only way to go for AC motors, but the cost difference on the normal DC Motor steam is going to be a significant jump especially if you want the MTH like smoke features and chuff control with GRJ additions.  Sounds like parts alone will be approaching $400 between ERR and GRJ.  G

at this point, I would go to proto3 for DC motors.  Proto3 has many more features.   I am using ERR for AC.

For me when I get around to it, I hope it's still here. I don't care about smoke ( normally don't run smoke ) so all I really care about is control, sound ( maybe ) and would like but not a have to have is electronic couplers. So for me A $200 - $220 up grade I can do is fine with me AC or DC motors. Also I don't have MTH system and don't plan on going to it. I'm happy with what I have and don't have to have all the bells and whistles. 

Uh.... we don't charge S&H again on back ordered Command boards. For those that bought the Sound Kits in this first  batch and are waiting on Cruise Commanders and Cruise M Boards, when they come in (Oct / Nov) , we just bill you for  the boards and we ship them out Priority Mail for free. That's what the initial S&H was for. We tried to communicate that when we sent out the invoices.

Everyone has their "price", that's fine. I get it. Still, we have to maintain staff (Secretary, Technical, Shipping and Receiving) , We have to Warranty boards, buy all the little things that go into the kits as well as finance the purchase of stock so these will be available in the long run. None of that is free.  But I get it, $20 is $20. Too bad $20 an engine keeps you from enjoying your hobby and upgrading your old command engines. Better find a cheaper hobby...

In reality, sales have been brisk. There are many customers out there not posting here that are buying up all the first batch sound Kits and ordering the Command kits that will be coming in later this year. TMCC will not die. I saw that it could have if no one stepped in, so here I am. Thankless job, but someone had to do it.

Most of all, enjoy your hobby. We will do all we can to make that a reality.

People complaining about price serve as live validation of Lionel’s original decision to shut this line down.  Given the outcry that accompanies that decision, I would think Scott could charge 2x the price of ERR and people would pay.  Apparently not.  I wish Scott well with this venture.

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given the outcry that accompanies that decision, I would think Scott could charge 2x the price of ERR and people would pay.  Apparently not. 

Come on Ray, maybe we should be reasonable.  One of the reasons for the popularity of the ERR products was a cost effective Lionel command upgrade path.  If they doubled the price of the products, it's not so cost effective anymore.  At $400 for the parts for an upgrade, suddenly it's not so attractive.  I think for the most part that Scott's prices are in line, I didn't really expect no price increase with the transition.

 "I have a feeling, TMCC is going the way of PS-1. "

I don't see it that way. TMCC is command control with the added potential for pretty good quality sound.  It's forward compatible with Legacy. 

PS1 was not command control and thus had no real compatibility with DCS or other command systems.  I'm pretty sure no one was doing PS1 "upgrades" or retrofits once PS2 became available. Indeed,  I don't recall anyone doing PS1 "upgrades" or retrofits in any significant numbers except for repairs for folks who didn't want TMCC upgrades during the 1995-2002 period when TMCC was the only game in town.

Howard Hitchcock has gone on record that Lionel is working on developing technology that will allow the next generation controller (whether it be a handheld and/or smart device) to communicate with, obviously, Bluetooth locos, LionChief locos,  and backward compatible with Legacy/TMCC locos. If they can come up with such a device, upgrade or a bridge, TMCC potentially will never become obsolete in the foreseeable future.  A device that allowed a Bluetooth command structure to talk with a TMCC/Legacy receiver is one conceivable path forward.  They have a vested interest in not obsoleting 25 years of products, as Hitchcock noted in his Notch 6 interview.

I've called a halt to upgrading and have decided to  just repair what breaks and keep running them until the wheels drop off.  We also stopped purchasing new locomotives as the prices are just too high for what is supposed to be a "toy."

Thanks Scott for carrying the ERR line forward. I think it is the best older loco /TMCC upgrade possible and can be done by an advanced novice (like myself!!) I like small steam and have several to do yet. Most have small tenders making sound a challenging install. Sound for me is a novelty and smoke a non-starter. I will create a sound boxcar to use when I desire sound. To me the cruise commander makes these steamers perform  like a correctly geared scale brass loco. To me they are worth the new price and continued availability. Photo is of my  K line B-6 which is ERR CCM upgraded and repainted and weathered. I love the way she runs!!!!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Ray Lombardo posted:

Given the outcry that accompanies that decision, I would think Scott could charge 2x the price of ERR and people would pay.  Apparently not. 

Come on Ray, maybe we should be reasonable.  One of the reasons for the popularity of the ERR products was a cost effective Lionel command upgrade path.  If they doubled the price of the products, it's not so cost effective anymore.  At $400 for the parts for an upgrade, suddenly it's not so attractive.  I think for the most part that Scott's prices are in line, I didn't really expect no price increase with the transition.

I understand your point .  It's just crazy to me that people were so incensed at Lionel discontinuing this line, and then when Scott picks it up and has to charge more to make it economically viable, people start to whine.  The reality is that I love the ERR stuff too, but these companies exist to make a profit, not to stay busy for the sake of staying busy, and the costs here have gone up.  Everything gets more expensive over time and the cost effectiveness of upgrading locomotives to command control is no longer as appealing as it once was because it is (probably) a lot cheaper to mass produce them in that configuration in the first instance.  So the reality here, and it is the same one Lionel looked at when they looked at the economics of this business line prior to disposing of it, is that either people need to pay more or the line will be shut down.  The alternative is to ask Scott or Lionel to take money away from more productive uses to subsidize hobbyists who want to upgrade trains.  That's not the way business works, as you know. 

"After all, we are not communists."  ;-)

Ray Lombardo posted:

"After all, we are not communists."  ;-)

At least some of us aren't.

I am not whining, just point out, but again, Lionel walked away from this, but for some reason there is still a high demand, which means profit margin to make money??.  So why the Corporate decision to drop.  Just weird to me, but YES at some point the price can get beyond reasonable for the initial purpose. Folks make the same decisions on MTH upgrades. Buying new for some items is cheaper than an upgrade.  But Lionel isn't making TMCC either.

My point on comparison to PS-1 is tech and chips.  Same for PS-2 5V.  Once those chips go obsolete, it is a reinvestment in board design.  In some cases it can't be done.  So if someone tells you the line will remain for decades, they are smoking wacky weed.

The difference for MTH is that their latest tech is backwards compatible for an upgrade.  I get though.  My layout is all TMCC and some PS-1.  For now all is well in Lionelville.  G

I'm guessing here but I would bet Lionel ( ERR ) is charging Scott some type of royalty fee to produce these for us, That Scott isn't telling us. The amount is his business not ours but most companies if they sell off or what have you charge some type of royalty, Whether it be a % or a Hugh payout at the purchase.  I know I had a boss buy a bakery. He had to buy the original name to keep the name which carried the clients coming there. Other wise it could of been His name and a lot of people are not that sure of new ownership.

So that can be part of the cost increase too. 

Bottom line Scott is trying to us a favor by doing this. Don't like his price? Don't buy, as he stated there are a lot buying. 

It is what it is. I’ll buy ERR as long as it exists. I enjoy taking Lionel high end AC motored engines available at super low prices, dropping in can motors and having up to date benefits of command. Still cheaper than $1200.00 engines. Keep them coming Scott.

GGG posted:

I am not whining, just point out, but again, Lionel walked away from this, but for some reason there is still a high demand, which means profit margin to make money??. 

George,

I didn't make the comment about you.  I was observing the same thing -- people want the product but they don't want to pay, seemingly.  I have observed a similar thing happen with automobile enthusiasts.  They will, for example, clamor for their favorite carmaker to make a 5 speed high performance station wagon, to take one niche example.  And yet, when the car is offered, it doesn't sell enough copies to make the continued business justification worthwhile.  So you would think, from the loud "whining" of enthusiasts that Acura, for example, would have sold a ton of those TSX wagons they offered a few years ago.  Same thing with the BMW 5 series wagons.  Yet, they get discontinued because the business case for them isn't strong outside of a few small, albeit loud, pockets of the support on enthusiast forums.  

All of these cases support the notion that it is dangerous to attempt to draw credible conclusions from anecdotal evidence posted on Internet forums.  It is what it is.  

Question: What DC can motors are customers using to drop in older engines? Should I procure some?

Always looking for items to sell. I have many 385PH Mabuchi motors in stock now.

And for what it's worth... I will be purchasing a lot of stock of boards this year. It may take me 1 to 2 years to sell enough just to pay for this order. Yes, there is margin in this for profit, but I won't see a dime for some time. I do the same with some projects we run. My basic rule of thumb is not to start a project until the underlying reservations pay for the entire production. The stock gives us DC (steady direct current) of cash flow to run this business.  Employees, rent, utilities, taxes, supplies, surprises need to be fed regularly.

I do think these circuit boards are very well designed and should be a viable upgrade tool for some time to come. I will keep at it as long as there are customers for them. 

Scott

Scott, one of the key elements is how to interface the motor to the existing drivetrain.  In any case, for larger steamers, they're likely looking for the larger motors, the 385PH is pretty small for a full sized scale steam locomotive, I'd be looking for something along the lines of the RS-545 at least.

I also have RS 555PH Mabuchi motors. 

Those are probably more in line with some of the steam crowd.  The 385's would be in diesels, but they'd need the proper worm gear, always a sticking point if you don't have a press.

555 is a decent motor and useful for upgrading Williams brass, many of which came with 550 motors. You could list them but I think what John was saying its the mounting adapter thats needed for most any motor upgrade. 

What the O gauge world seems to be looking for is a bolt on replacement for the Lionel Pullmor. Right now the only option today is a 385 can with a Frank Timko mount. The hot setup would be an easy way to mount a 555 instead but so far no one has come up with and solution to do this. 

Pete

Yep, the RS555 would be a good pick for larger steamers, I always shy away for the same reason Pete.  I just don't have the metal working tools or expertise to mill out a proper replacement mount.

Scott I just went to the ERR by 3rd rail site and was wondering since the beginning of this post stated costing more, has this been updated to reflect the higher prices? 

Prices are the current (higher) prices. Just a bit.

Scott, I didn't have any issues with the prices except for the hike in the price of the Mini Commanders, was a bit of a surprise.  I also notice you didn't list the plain Mini Commander ACC, which is likely the most used model in the past.  I know that it was the one I used most often.

If someone will send me a sample mount I can have them made in bulk, offer them with our 555s.

I might be a hard sell to keep the Mini Commander as a licensed product. There is very little interest / orders in them.

Scott,  This will not be a one mount fits all scenario.  It matters what engine and how Lionel did it.  PW Steam is different from Modern Steam with AC motors.  Shell size, how the drive works, etc...   I seriously doubt the average hobbyist can take this project on.  You may want to reach out to Frank to see what his demand is.  Then again he may not share.

Your motor selection is fine for upgrades and repairs.  My recommendation is having double shaft motors of your style, and 5 pole vice the 3 pole variation.   Early Williams and others used 3 pole and also different ratio. 

Many of your steam have Flywheel in back, yet Williams MTH have them in front on most.  Having double shaft allows the installer to choose where flywheel goes.  G

Scott, the problem is no one now has a solution to use a motor larger than a 385. To use anything larger, like a 555, requires modifying the existing frame, and maybe the body of the locomotive as well.

I was able to do one. This will give you an idea what was involved. Maybe someone else could come up with a simpler way. If they do and a kit could be put together both the motors and the ERR kits would be flying out the door. 

Show this to your engine builders. They may be able to help.

Pete

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Scott, one of the key elements is how to interface the motor to the existing drivetrain.  In any case, for larger steamers, they're likely looking for the larger motors, the 385PH is pretty small for a full sized scale steam locomotive, I'd be looking for something along the lines of the RS-545 at least.

Some engine can't handle larger motor due to shell interference.  As I stated above one shoe will not fit all.  G

Ray Lombardo posted:

GGG posted:

I am not whining, just point out, but again, Lionel walked away from this, but for some reason there is still a high demand, which means profit margin to make money??. 

George,

I didn't make the comment about you.  I was observing the same thing -- people want the product but they don't want to pay, seemingly.  I have observed a similar thing happen with automobile enthusiasts.  They will, for example, clamor for their favorite carmaker to make a 5 speed high performance station wagon, to take one niche example.  And yet, when the car is offered, it doesn't sell enough copies to make the continued business justification worthwhile.  So you would think, from the loud "whining" of enthusiasts that Acura, for example, would have sold a ton of those TSX wagons they offered a few years ago.  Same thing with the BMW 5 series wagons.  Yet, they get discontinued because the business case for them isn't strong outside of a few small, albeit loud, pockets of the support on enthusiast forums.  

All of these cases support the notion that it is dangerous to attempt to draw credible conclusions from anecdotal evidence posted on Internet forums.  It is what it is.  

No offense taken, just generically putting that out there.  Too much sensitivity sometime on this forum. 

rtraincollector posted:

I'm guessing here but I would bet Lionel ( ERR ) is charging Scott some type of royalty fee to produce these for us, That Scott isn't telling us. The amount is his business not ours but most companies if they sell off or what have you charge some type of royalty, Whether it be a % or a Hugh payout at the purchase.  I know I had a boss buy a bakery. He had to buy the original name to keep the name which carried the clients coming there. Other wise it could of been His name and a lot of people are not that sure of new ownership.

So that can be part of the cost increase too. 

Bottom line Scott is trying to us a favor by doing this. Don't like his price? Don't buy, as he stated there are a lot buying. 

Scott, Said he had to pay royalty in an earlier post.  I assume as much.  Corporations don't give anything away, unless they can use it as a Tax deduction, and Scotts not a charity  G