Is it just me or do people get it wrong when they are listing o gauge items to sell - is it o scale even if the item is not to scale? Thanks.
Nick
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No - but it is O-gauge - the space between the rails.
The scale in O-scale refers to the relationship of model size to prototype size; O "scale" is 1:48.
Many lower-end (not necessarily bad or cheap) items are sub-scale but O-gauge. This allows them to take tighter curves on smaller layouts while still retaining most of the heft, reliability and appeal of true 1:48 O-scale equipment.
IMO
We should use the terms
Traditional O gauge
or semi scale O gauge
or scale O gauge
O is a gauge that encompasses all of the above.
Thanks for the information, I always see people on ebay saying o scale when it is clearly semi-scale (or o gauge), I just didn't know if it was still considered o-scale. Thanks!
ebay is the wild wild west as far as accuracy of descriptions go. I bought a tank car listed as 'O scale' and when I got a box in the mail the size of a 1/43 scale auto I knew something was wrong. It was 'OO' scale which seller claimed I should know is the same as O. End result was I got money back and seller told me to toss tank car. When I first got into O I got burned good with those micro K-Line cars sold as O scale.
AMCDave posted:ebay is the wild wild west as far as accuracy of descriptions go. I bought a tank car listed as 'O scale' and when I got a box in the mail the size of a 1/43 scale auto I knew something was wrong. It was 'OO' scale which seller claimed I should know is the same as O. End result was I got money back and seller told me to toss tank car. When I first got into O I got burned good with those micro K-Line cars sold as O scale.
That's funny, eBay sellers are always misleading me with titles on items that say o scale when it is semi scale. I wish eBay users understood o scale and semi o scale so when I search "lionel scale steam" I get scale steam engines by lionel.
To make things just a little more confusing, the gauge of the track is 1:43.5 so the track gauge is only O scale if you are in England.
D500 got it right. Roo.
No - but it is O-gauge - the space between the rails.
The scale in O-scale refers to the relationship of model size to prototype size; O "scale" is 1:48.
I am not going to comment on the "scale" aspects. I will comment on the eBay postings I have read. Know your parts and products before you buy on there. I have never had a issue on over 400 eBay purchases in the last ten years. But I research everything before buying. And usually I know exactly what I am looking for before I even take to eBay. Results may vary,yada,yada etc,etc
slicknick924 posted:I wish eBay users understood.
Stop right there.
I just started in the hobby and already racked up a few mistakes. I thought 6464 boxcars were scale or close to it nope try again.
theteejmiester posted:I am not going to comment on the "scale" aspects. I will comment on the eBay postings I have read. Know your parts and products before you buy on there. I have never had a issue on over 400 eBay purchases in the last ten years. But I research everything before buying. And usually I know exactly what I am looking for before I even take to eBay. Results may vary,yada,yada etc,etc
My career was a Analyst for one of the worlds largest banks. I know research. But when a sellers description is 100% incorrect it's hard to find out what they are selling. I feel sellers need to either get it correct or just say 'Item for sale....I know nothing' I was a long time seller on ebay......never had an issue with a buyer because of my descriptions.
With Ebay the main Problem to this is them as they don't do O gauge as a description they say O scale. And we know about 90% on there is O guage semi-scale or smaller.
It should be noted that eBay model train categories are all referred to as scale, instead of gauge. That's the start of the problem.
Pertaining to the original post, it's not such a silly question and it encompasses far more than just ebay. You see the question raised and same issues raised here quite frequently also.
But if you stop and think about it, 20 years ago, you wouldn't even have considered such a question. If you were a Lionel guy, you were a high railer... a toy train operator or collector.
Lionel was simply Lionel. Which meant traditional, semi-scale, high rail, O gauge, 027 or whatever... that was Lionel. The two terms used by Lionel were O and 027, which were as much economic sub-divisions as anything else: The larger, more expensive trains were 0, and the smaller, simplified, less-costly-to-produce trains were 027.
I think Rich Melvin here has said he doesn't like the phrase "semi-scale." I can't recall Lionel ever using that phrase in their advertising either. But it wasn't necessary. Because wherever the term "semi-scale" came from, that's was Lionel trains were!
The one thing Lionel did not mean was "scale" even though some of the postwar period items certainly were close to scale proportions in size. The postwar F-3 was close to scale proportion. The 6464 box car wasn't. The porthole caboose was close to scale proportion, but the SP caboose wasn't. Yet some SP cabooses came with added features and were used in 0 gauge sets versus the normal lower cost 027 sets.
Even during the 1970's, when Lionel first introduced the "Standard 0' trains, it still wasn't a big enough market or demand to add any confusion to the marketplace. Lionel was still 0 or 027, with the new addition of 'Standard 0."
It wasn't until the advent of TMCC, the serious competition from MTH and to a lesser extent, K-Line (who were already in China) and Lionel's move to China production (so Lionel could also have the lower production costs, thus allowing them to put money into NEW scale tooling) that this whole "Scale" thing became an issue.
And just to show it isn't only Lionel, look at MTH. Mike Wolf has maintained that the Railking line has always been the biggest selling portion of MTH products. Railking was also not scale, BUT those products were typically a little bigger than similar Lionel models. Later as product detail advanced, Mike moved his early Premiere scale line products down to the Railking line, calling it "Railking Scale." An economically motivated move as the older Premiere line engines were not as detailed as the newest ones. Not so unlike Lionel with their 0 and 027 lines, that designation muddies the waters, because you have Railking items that are scale and others that are not.
Also consider that for almost 40 years, nearly every Lionel train set came with 027 track, until the advent of FasTrack. The Lionel FT diesel also came in 027 track train sets. That particular diesel was scale proportioned and detailed, but because it took so long to develop, it had fallen behind in the detail levels of the rapidly advancing scale product detail levels. So Lionel moved the engine to the R-T-R catalog.
I kind of enjoyed D500's last sentence above... "This allows them to take tighter curves on smaller layouts while still retaining most of the heft, reliability and appeal of true 1:48 O-scale equipment." Heft and reliability" are terms associated with postwar Lionel trains, not the newer scale ones. Especially, reliability. That is another contributing factor in the appeal of the older Lionel trains. Though in fairness, the reliability of the newer trains has nothing to do with 1:48 proportions, but rather all the complicated electronics, fragile add-on details and the smaller unique production runs.
Every figure I have been privy too, says the scale market is NOT the predominant or big market. BUT it IS the NEW market. Just as with the media in general, it is the "new" thing that gets the front page attention. And there's also not decades upon decades of past production products to compete with. Whereas the new Lionel R-T-R catalog items (rolling stock in particular) are also competing with everything Lionel has ever made in the past.
The other thing that I find quite amusing, is how many questions concerning scale in general, or specific products that are scale "Signature" line products, are brought up on this particular "Hi-Rail, 027 And Traditional 0 Gauge" Forum category. It may be the golden age of O gauge trains, but all the specific sub-categories of the market do make for confusion to be sure.
slicknick924 posted:Thanks for the information, I always see people on ebay saying o scale when it is clearly semi-scale (or o gauge), I just didn't know if it was still considered o-scale. Thanks!
Like D500 mentions; many people get it completely wrong with the terms in the hobby. O gauge is track spacing and O scale or semi-scale is the size of the equipment being run.
The term 027 is another completely different animal so to speak as 027 uses a lower profile O gauge track size with tighter curve spacing.
Lee Fritz
As others have noted, D500 got it right. An item is either scale (in this country 1:48 scale) or it isn't. If there is any doubt, designate it as O gauge (the track the stuff rides on). No need to muddy the waters any more than they already are.
Allan, you're way to late to prevent muddying the waters! 
Allan Miller posted:No need to muddy the waters any more than they already are.
You're right.... One Muddy's enough for me!!...
Wonder if he's got his mojo in O workin'?
KD
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theteejmiester posted:I am not going to comment on the "scale" aspects. I will comment on the eBay postings I have read. Know your parts and products before you buy on there. I have never had a issue on over 400 eBay purchases in the last ten years. But I research everything before buying. And usually I know exactly what I am looking for before I even take to eBay. Results may vary,yada,yada etc,etc
This may be the best thing I've ever read on this Forum.
Mark in Oregon
Strummer posted:theteejmiester posted:I am not going to comment on the "scale" aspects. I will comment on the eBay postings I have read. Know your parts and products before you buy on there. I have never had a issue on over 400 eBay purchases in the last ten years. But I research everything before buying. And usually I know exactly what I am looking for before I even take to eBay. Results may vary,yada,yada etc,etc
This may be the best thing I've ever read on this Forum.
Mark in Oregon
Mark:
Almost second that, (there is a lot of good material on the forum). Doing one's homework prevents mistakes, as does viewing seller feedback, listing grammar, layout and other such details. I also have many years buying / selling on eBay, and I can count on one hand how many issues I've had, and even those were mild and relatively easy to fix.
slicknick924 posted:AMCDave posted:ebay is the wild wild west as far as accuracy of descriptions go. I bought a tank car listed as 'O scale' and when I got a box in the mail the size of a 1/43 scale auto I knew something was wrong. It was 'OO' scale which seller claimed I should know is the same as O. End result was I got money back and seller told me to toss tank car. When I first got into O I got burned good with those micro K-Line cars sold as O scale.
That's funny, eBay sellers are always misleading me with titles on items that say o scale when it is semi scale. I wish eBay users understood o scale and semi o scale so when I search "lionel scale steam" I get scale steam engines by lionel.
Ebay seems to have made it more of a disaster when they got rid of the manufacturer sub categories rather than make them better. Wonder how many who don't know the difference have gotten K-Line by Lionel or American Flyer by Lionel when they purchased an item just listed as "Lionel" in the text.
dkdkrd posted:Allan Miller posted:No need to muddy the waters any more than they already are.
You're right.... One Muddy's enough for me!!...
Wonder if he's got his mojo in O workin'?
KD
My mojo seems to be losing steam lately, I think I'll fire up some of my old blues CDs... 
I am confused as are others by all the terms relating to "O".
When I first heard: "traditional O scale" I thought that mean't truly 1/48. Wrong.
I can figure out MTH--with their numbers but even then some of the Railking is scale size. Their new imperial line is undersized.
I really wish that only two terms are used. Either it's TRUE 1/48 or its NOT. On Ebay, I have written sellers requesting measurements more times than I can recall.
AMCDave posted:theteejmiester posted:I am not going to comment on the "scale" aspects. I will comment on the eBay postings I have read. Know your parts and products before you buy on there. I have never had a issue on over 400 eBay purchases in the last ten years. But I research everything before buying. And usually I know exactly what I am looking for before I even take to eBay. Results may vary,yada,yada etc,etc
My career was a Analyst for one of the worlds largest banks. I know research. But when a sellers description is 100% incorrect it's hard to find out what they are selling. I feel sellers need to either get it correct or just say 'Item for sale....I know nothing' I was a long time seller on ebay......never had an issue with a buyer because of my descriptions.
I 100% agree with him
I do also agree that it was stupid of eBay to get rid of the specific sub categorit's they made life 10x easier
John C. posted:I am confused as are others by all the terms relating to "O".
When I first heard: "traditional O scale" I thought that mean't truly 1/48. Wrong.
I can figure out MTH--with their numbers but even then some of the Railking is scale size. Their new imperial line is undersized.
I really wish that only two terms are used. Either it's TRUE 1/48 or its NOT. On Ebay, I have written sellers requesting measurements more times than I can recall.
In the Lionel hay day, their trains were not 1/4" scale, although a few were 1/4". AF before WWII was O gauge and like Lionel, their rolling stock and locomotives were 3/16" scale, not 1/4" scale. After WWII, AF re-gauged all of their rolling stock and locomotives to S gauge. This made their product close to scale. However today, 3/16" scale O gauge still prevails because it will fit in small places.
Scale and gauge are 2 different things.
phillyreading postedThe term 027 is another completely different animal so to speak as 027 uses a lower profile O gauge track size with tighter curve spacing.
Lee Fritz
Funny you should mention 027 Lee. When I was a kid in the early 50's every boy on my street had 'lectric trains. You either had 027, O gauge or like the one weirdo American Flyer. We all liked O gauge because the track was heavier and had neat looking switches. The word SCALE was never even mentioned. Just saying.
Oh I have another question about track radius. I just got a scale Mikado with a minimum radius of o-42. I have some o-36 curves on my layout, will I be able to run the Mikado? Thanks
slicknick924 posted:Oh I have another question about track radius. I just got a scale Mikado with a minimum radius of o-42. I have some o-36 curves on my layout, will I be able to run the Mikado? Thanks
The notation o-42, or O-42 or Ø42 refers to diameter, not radius. For example, Ø108" is a diameter of 108 inches. Radius is noted with the letter 'R'. From Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing
Lehigh74 wrote:
"To make things just a little more confusing, the gauge of the track is 1:43.5 so the track gauge is only O scale if you are in England."
Which is why HO (Half O) is 1/87 and not 1/96!
Alex
Unless a clear and sharp picture tells you exactly what you are considering buying, and it is described down to the part number, assume online auction seller is little old lady who found it cruising yard sales and knows not diesel from steam. In the O category l see HO listed all the time, and that is what is listed. Caveat emptor.
Ingeniero No1 posted:slicknick924 posted:Oh I have another question about track radius. I just got a scale Mikado with a minimum radius of o-42. I have some o-36 curves on my layout, will I be able to run the Mikado? Thanks
The notation o-42, or O-42 or Ø42 refers to diameter, not radius. For example, Ø108" is a diameter of 108 inches. Radius is noted with the letter 'R'. From Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing
Lehigh74 wrote:
"To make things just a little more confusing, the gauge of the track is 1:43.5 so the track gauge is only O scale if you are in England."
Which is why HO (Half O) is 1/87 and not 1/96!
Alex
I'm still kind of confused, here is the link to the website: http://www.lionel.com/products...mikado-1210-6-18080/ I would download the manual and see the minimum curve, I'm still a bit confused. I know that Lionel has curves: 0-27 0-36 0-48 0-60 0-72 0-80 I believe. I don't know if it's o or 0 or O. I have the 0-36
Manufacturers generally specify the minimum diameter curve for a loco as the smallest diameter track that they make which the engine will negotiate. Sometimes the engine will negotiate slightly smaller diameters. For example, a Lionel 751E and a MTH Zephyr are both rated at O72 but will negotiate my 68 inch diameter curve. Since you have the loco and the track, why not try it?
