Sunset 3rd Rail GP9/GP7

Lionel has never done a 2 rail engine, so even it close to scale, it is of little use.    MTH has, but the flaws mentioned above make it a poor choice for me personally.    The red Caboose loco has a nice superstructure, but the mech is lightweight.    Atlas got the dies from Red Caboose/Intermountain and have used them, but they use the infamous china block drives. 

those two motor drives are good pullers and run well around loops but any I have had are not nearly as good as single motors for an oprating layout that requires switching and slow speeds.

By the way I think possibly MTH and maybe Lionel has done a 3 rail RS3.    As for the atlas one, I don't know if it close to scale dimensions or not.   A friend of mine had a pair of them.    To both of us they looked funny.    They looked too tall and so appeared too short.    The shell may be right, but they sat too high on the trucks and just did not look right when compared to photos where they appear long and lean.

I guess this sounds like rivet counting, but I don't feel it is.    If the model does not "look" right to me from 3 feet away or so on the layout, I don't like it.   I do have MTH 2 rail GP30s from years ago in the 90s when MTH did some 2 rail stuff.    From "2 feet away" they looked as good, or just like the brass one I had.    As a result I sold the brass one.

prrjim posted:

 

...

Yes the reservation system seems to work pretty well.   An announcement is made and we all jump in, or we don't and scott decides to do the product based on that.    I think I have heard the target is about 1000 units to get the current price level.   If we settle for a lot fewer units, the prices goes up considerably.  

It's 500 models at the current price point.  The K-M is $1200 for 150 units.   ANY diesel can be done  @$1200 for 150 right now.  GP7/9s, SD40-2s, FP45s, SDP40Fs,  whatever.  Doesn't matter what it is made out of.

Jim I generally agree with you.

One approach would be to buy a 3rd Rail F-unit and harvest the drive for use in an Atlas GP.  Sell the remaining parts at auction for whatever you can get.  Another option would be to repower the Atlas GP with one of the aftermarket drives available for O-scale diesels.  Heck, now that Atlas itself makes an MP-15 with properly spaced Blombergs, you could even steal the drive from one of those.  All of these approaches are costly, but one way of getting what you want right now.  My $.02.

Atlas recently offered the RS3 in their TrainMan line.  In comparison to the old Weaver version, the Atlas shell is taller and wider to accommodate the China drive. Otherwise, the overall height ( at th cab ) and length are th same with no noticeable difference in gap between body and truck.  The ERR electronics do their usual great job of making switching realistic.  Probably all moot points as the line is strictly 3 rail.  

Bruce

brwebster posted:

...Probably all moot points as the line is strictly 3 rail.....

Bruce

Not true.  The Trainman line models are offered in both 2-rail and 3-rail.  However, the other comments about hood height and width are true.  I've often heard that the Weavers are fairly accurate renditions.

big train posted:

brwebster posted:

...Probably all moot points as the line is strictly 3 rail.....

Bruce

Not true.  The Trainman line models are offered in both 2-rail and 3-rail.  However, the other comments about hood height and width are true.  I've often heard that the Weavers are fairly accurate renditions.

The original Weavers, with the handrails mounted on top of the walkway, are the only accurate RS3s other than those that were made in brass many years ago. 

I have an Atlas Trainman RS3 in 2-rail, but it betrays the 3-rail origins of the Trainman design with big spacers between the pilots & frame, & handrails that finish short at the steps at each corner, & pressed stanchions that go down the frame side. The hood is too tall which is more obvious when you look at the centre windows on the cab.

But I got mine at a bargain price on ebay.co.uk, & I liked the fact that all the grab irons are metal, rather than molded on like the Weaver model.

With an ESU Loksound L decoder it manages a decent crawl, not quite as good as a single-motor setup can get admitedly, but it sounds great - splutters just like a real Alco.

On the subject of CF7s, here's one I did earlier....

Unfortunately, it's an HO Scale Athearn model I repainted myself, & I no longer model in HO.

I would order a GP9 lettered for the Pennsy if 3rd rail would offer one.

Norm

Hot Water posted:

 

Exactly. Since the market is fairly well saturated with Atlas GP7/9 models

 

 

BS!
When they came out, I saw exactly one Atlas N&W GP9. My dealer didn't put my order in for some reason and then I couldn't find any! Not even from Atlas. One GP9 doesn't not a proper consist make. I think that I have seen one since on ebay. Sooooo, saturated they are not!
I have requested that Atlas rerun the N&W units, including the "Redbirds", but, as usual, talking to them has been like talking to a box of rocks.

BTW,
The recent run of Athearn N&W GP9 Redbirds & Bluebirds seem to have sold quite well with many modelers having a hard time finding them.

"Scott needs to do SW and NW switchers"
You've got to be kidding me! Talked about saturated! A dime a dozen.
What we need is something with character...an ALCO T6!
Maybe Scott could do that

Can't really beat the Atlas version at half the price....

I would think that the GP 7,9,18 and 20 as one run would get sufficient reservations, it appears that beyond first generation diesels there is not enough market interest for more modern diesels [case in point SD-40-2s] at Sunsets price point bearing in mind that the "street price" from MTH,Lionel and Atlas averages 450+/- for most diesels and most buyers want at least a pair. Scott is dependent on both 3 and 2 rail orders to make his numbers. JMO

Hot Water posted:

catnap posted:

Atlas does an excellent GP7/GP9 so I wouldn't be interested.

Exactly. Since the market is fairly well saturated with Atlas GP7/9 models, not to mention MTH and Lionel, in my opinion, Sunset/3rd Rail would be hard pressed to receive sufficient order/reservations for these.

I have a 2-rail B&O GP9 that I'm going to outfit with a LokSound XL decoder to replace the crummy QSI board that came with it.

 

"Fairly well saturated"? Sorry, but that is not the case. There haven't been that many two-rail Atlas GP-7s or GP-9s to be had in western and southwestern paint schemes to begin with, and what there were have been gone from dealers' shelves for a long, long time. Certain roads, like the Katy and the Frisco, have been ignored entirely.

And while Lionel's Legacy GP-9s are acceptable-looking, they're not only hard to find, but they're in three-rail only to boot.

I guarantee you - prove this pent-up demand to Scott with reservations, and your desires will be fulfilled.  I think that is amazing, and unheard of in this hobby.

By the way, Mr. Sick, that is a really nice looking model and some truly spectacular scenery!

bob2 posted:

I guarantee you - prove this pent-up demand to Scott with reservations, and your desires will be fulfilled.  I think that is amazing, and unheard of in this hobby.

Pray tell, how to the other guys do it?

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

bob2 posted:

I guarantee you - prove this pent-up demand to Scott with reservations, and your desires will be fulfilled.  I think that is amazing, and unheard of in this hobby.

Pray tell, how to the other guys do it?

Simon

Apparently MTH does the same thing, i.e. an item in the catalog that does not get sufficient orders, is dropped and does NOT go into production. Lionel now refers to such a process as "BTO" = Build To Orders.

Hot Water posted:

Apparently MTH does the same thing, i.e. an item in the catalog that does not get sufficient orders, is dropped and does NOT go into production. Lionel now refers to such a process as "BTO" = Build To Orders.

Which pretty much from what I see is the way everyone else (in 2 rail) does it.

Simon

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

Hmm,I would expect that if Scott would announce and get enough reservations for the GP it would be a race horse to see who would deliver first,Atlas or 3rd Rail---I would not bet against 3rd Rail.

Norm

hibar posted:

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

I received an email from MTH.  The GP-9 is in stock but only in 3 rail.  The door is open for Sunset to do the 2-rail version.

Ed

Guys, keep in mind That smaller locos do not mean significantly lower prices.    The cost of tooling big modern diesel is not much more than tooling an SW1.    the labor to assemble is pretty close too.    There is a little less material cost but that is the smallest part of the project.    Scott gave a nice review of this situation when talking about brass steamers back a few years.   I am trying to remember paraphrase the information he provided.

EBT Jim posted:

hibar posted:

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

Jim,

Could you confirm when you received the update about the Atlas-O MP15DC arrival date? When I called their customer service number, 2 weeks ago, the person I spoke to, was still confident on the ship date of 3^rd quarter 2018, listed on their website. I reminded her that we were in the 3^rd quarter of 2018 & she still seemed to believe that they would be shipped or available later, around September.

These are just my opinion,

Naveen

naveenrajan posted:

EBT Jim posted:

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

Jim,

Could you confirm when you received the update about the Atlas-O MP15DC arrival date? When I called their customer service number, 2 weeks ago, the person I spoke to, was still confident on the ship date of 3^rd quarter 2018, listed on their website. I reminded her that we were in the 3^rd quarter of 2018 & she still seemed to believe that they would be shipped or available later, around September.

These are just my opinion,

Naveen

Naveen …. I sure don't know when they will actually ship. I'm eagerly awaiting their SW switchers.

This past March, a forum member here posted an apparent Atlas office memo …..

I hope what the woman told you is actually correct.

Jim

Judging from the posts here, it looks like there's a lot of pent-up demand for Sunset GP-9s.

I hadn't thought about getting a GP-7 until recently. Did Atlas do any passenger-version GP-7s, or were they all freight versions?

I would go for one or two SP GP-9s.  I believe the Sunset drive is far superior.  Your mileage may differ.

Jay

Jay C posted:

I would go for one or two SP GP-9s.  I believe the Sunset drive is far superior.  Your mileage may differ.

Jay

For me, the availability of the drop-in P:48 wheelsets ALONG WITH the superior running characteristics of Sunset models seals the deal for me.   This fact alone makes me want to shift my modeling era slightly to include more diesels.   Sunset diesels.

The GP7 is a tad late for me but I am sure I'd do at least one in PRR.  

And of course I'd love some Sunset FAs or early (Phase 1) F units.  Would they reserve sufficiently? No way to know that.

How funny to find this topic when I was literally thinking of dropping Scott a line about this!

its all very well saying 'Atlas' already make them....but try finding one, especially over here in the U.K. and when Atlas do produce them, they are often in more obscure road names.

I'd love to see Sunset do some GP7s and 9s, given their products continue to improve every time. 

It would also be an ideal loco to get younger blood into the hobby. There's nothing more frustrating than deciding to go for 'O' and then have trouble finding locos. 

Loving the site and the conversations and banter.

Happy modelling, everyone, from across the pond!

Steve Adby posted:

How funny to find this topic when I was literally thinking of dropping Scott a line about this!

its all very well saying 'Atlas' already make them....but try finding one, especially over here in the U.K. and when Atlas do produce them, they are often in more obscure road names.

I'd love to see Sunset do some GP7s and 9s, given their products continue to improve every time. 

It would also be an ideal loco to get younger blood into the hobby. There's nothing more frustrating than deciding to go for 'O' and then have trouble finding locos. 

Loving the site and the conversations and banter.

Happy modelling, everyone, from across the pond!

And THAT is precisely why I’d like to see Scott do a run of ALCo RS3’s...in addition to the GP7’s & 9’s being discussed in this thread.  Sunset just seems to do things right...and I don’t even own any of their engines...YET!

Yes, there have been a lot of RS3’s offered by multiple manufacturers/importers over the years, but there has yet to be one that is true scale size (and shape!) with the high level of detail that I just KNOW Scott would offer in his version!  A very common prototype locomotive that to this day has never been done accurately by any of the mainstream 3-rail manufacturers/importers!

Rule292 posted:

The GP7 is a tad late for me but I am sure I'd do at least one in PRR.  

And of course I'd love some Sunset FAs or early (Phase 1) F units.  Would they reserve sufficiently? No way to know that.

If you are talking PRR, The earliest F3's the PRR owned were phase II, road numbers 9500 to 9505, ordered as 3 sets of ABBA's. The only PRR F's with High Fans.

Simon

Jay C posted:

I would go for one or two SP GP-9s.  I believe the Sunset drive is far superior.  Your mileage may differ.

Jay

Would anyone be interested in the SP's T&NO freight service variant, the ones delivered without SP's characteristic warning lights?

Bear in mind before Sunset can actually post a model for reservations [ the only real way to get a realistic number on potential reservations ]  with pricing they have to do considerable planning and cost estimating. just saying !

HIBAR, why is that? It can be just as simple as saying “we wanna go this loco, reserve em and we will see if it’s a go”  planning and cost estimates should all be roughly the same for diesel production runs adjusted for tariffs and inflation

I agree with Matt.  Two pages of this, and am I correct in assuming that Scott has less than 20 firm commitments?  Make it 200, and get his attention!

Re: the earlier comment about how Lionel and MTH approach production in the same way - I note that Lionel, after overwhelming demand, is doing the N&W K2 streamlined Mountain.  I too like that Mountain, but I had assumed Scott's fine model had sated the demand.  What do I know?

Clearly there is no overwhelming demand for either GP 40s to replace the lightly reserved SD 40-2s which are still listed for reservations or a GP 7/9 series or Alco RS 3 series, the only truly firm reservations come with a CC or Ck something that Scott does not require. I believe the 2 rail market is more inclined to buy Scotts models for the drive and prototype detailing, he is however dependent on 3 railers to buy in to these projects to make them happen and they are accustomed to the more competitive pricing of the MTH, Lionel, Atlas diesels, not to mention the enormous selection they have had available for years. JMO

“No overwhelming demand” for GP-7s/GP-9s? I must have missed something. It seemed to me that a fair number of people on this thread sounded enthusiastic. I didn’t see a sparsely-autographed reservation list for them (Although few people seem excited about SDL-39s, CF-7s, and G-8s). Did someone talk to Sunset about GP-7s/GP-9s after this thread started? 

I could be very enthusiastic about a GP7 in ACL or SAL in 2 rail. Also a GP20 in Santa Fe.

rdunniii posted:

prrjim posted:

 

...

Yes the reservation system seems to work pretty well.   An announcement is made and we all jump in, or we don't and scott decides to do the product based on that.    I think I have heard the target is about 1000 units to get the current price level.   If we settle for a lot fewer units, the prices goes up considerably.  

It's 500 models at the current price point.  The K-M is $1200 for 150 units.   ANY diesel can be done  @$1200 for 150 right now.  GP7/9s, SD40-2s, FP45s, SDP40Fs,  whatever.  Doesn't matter what it is made out of.

It appears the K-M model is plastic.

EBT Jim posted:

hibar posted:

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

IDK since a recent thread and on Atlas O's website states that Atlas O lost their Factory in China for Locos and Rolling stock.

https://ogrforum.com/...70#80551019477943170

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

EBT Jim posted:

hibar posted:

One caveat to my previous post Atlas has the  GP7 Phase2 listed as one of 6 diesels 3Q 18 delivery, now we all know at best only one of these models "may" come in by the end of the year, for whatever reason the GP7 is listed first, obviously if this model gets produced in the foreseeable future it would impact potential reservations for a Sunset run. just saying!

There was an indication that it's going to be GP7's this year, and the SW and MP15 switchers next year.

Hope so.

IDK since a recent thread and on Atlas O's website states that Atlas O lost their Factory in China for Locos and Rolling stock.

https://ogrforum.com/...70#80551019477943170

This is not good news for Atlas buyers considering how far behind they were in motive power deliveries already, obviously rolling stock delivery will suffer also and any potentially new product development will be even further in the future. JMO