The Bane of Traction Tires!

Every one of my locomotives has traction tires. Although I don't like grooved wheels and traction tires, they haven't been much of a problem for me. They seem to last pretty well on my layouts, which have O-72 and O-54 curves, and I run short consists. But, I would be happy to accept a loss of tractive effort in exchange for "real wheels."

MELGAR

Well stated! ☺

Let us hear both pro and con for traction tites.

Con- loss of electrical connection is greater with tires.

Con- real trains have metal tires

Con- disassembly of some locos

Pro- they work well for me. I don't hate it anymore but still luv magnetraction best as I run too fast at times.(pro- magnetraction is more like real gravity being  applied  vs just grip from slip of rubber.

Pro- cheap

Hate 'em.  How I *wish* that 3-rail O gauge manufacturers would redesign their loco chassis, such that the end user could decide whether to equip grooved wheels with rubber tires, or ungrooved metal wheels.  Not holding my breath though. 

The only "pro" I can think of for rubber tires, is that they allow locos to climb unrealistically steep grades (such as might be encountered climbing out of hidden staging.)  For any other scenario, adding weight or doubleheading is the answer.  My $.02.

Don't care for them at all.  You want rubber tires, get a slot car track.   

Another con, they dirty up the rails.

John: I agree!  😁

I don’t like them...but are a must have if you have grades

I converted about 5 or 6 of my Railking diesels...a good freind got me a coffee can full of wheels from a man that did 2 rail conversions. I have no grades on my small layout so I replaced the grooved wheels with regular wheels.

I also found a use for the grooved wheels on the FM trucks I got rid of the blind axle wheels and replaced them with the grooved wheels it looks a lot better but the locomotive has to only be used on wide radius track.

Before

after

Heres a short video of the locomotive pulling a PWC train

Good job on the FM Bob!  On steam locos it's not so easy... The wheels have to be pressed on in quarter.  A small misalignment will lead to poor running, and a new quartering jig would have to be built for every different loco.  Also, replacement wheels are very hard to come by.  If the front and rear flanged wheels are identical, you might be able to swap a set from an identical donor loco.  Then I suppose you could sell the resulting four-tired abomination to someone who wants to pull stumps from their yard, or climb an O-scale Mt. Everest.

Tires are only a must if you have unrealistic grades.  For the record I'm not really a fan of Magne-traction either.  It contributes nothing if you're running on Atlas track, or even MTH RealTrax.  Just 1950s Lionel marketing gimmickry that was difficult or impossible for American Flyer to duplicate, and great for picking up ferrous debris near the track. 

All of this grows out of a toy-train mentality that you should maybe build an over-and-under in 4 x 8.  That's not a realistic expectation.  IMO it doesn't look realistic, and it defies the laws of railroading physics.

When MTH ventured into HO scale in a big way, they did it right.  Split chassis with "bottom plate", wheels / axles / bearings are removable as an assembly.  They even included a rubber-tired axle in the box for those who wanted it.  American Models S-gauge steam locos are also built this way.  I just want the O gauge manufacturers to retool (a dirty word with the demographics of our hobby today) so that end consumers have a choice of tires or not.

Ted S posted:

Good job on the FM Bob!  On steam locos it's not so easy... The wheels have to be pressed on in quarter.  A small misalignment will lead to poor running, and a new quartering jig would have to be built for every different loco.  Also, replacement wheels are very hard to come by.  If the front and rear flanged wheels are identical, you might be able to swap a set from an identical donor loco.  Then I suppose you could sell the resulting four-tired abomination to someone who wants to pull stumps from their yard, or climb an O-scale Mt. Everest.

Tires are only a must if you have unrealistic grades.  For the record I'm not really a fan of Magne-traction either.  It contributes nothing if you're running on Atlas track, or even MTH RealTrax.  Just 1950s Lionel marketing gimmickry that was difficult or impossible for American Flyer to duplicate, and great for picking up ferrous debris near the track. 

All of this grows out of a toy-train mentality that you should maybe build an over-and-under in 4 x 8.  That's not a realistic expectation.  IMO it doesn't look realistic, and it defies the laws of railroading physics.

When MTH ventured into HO scale in a big way, they did it right.  Split chassis with "bottom plate", wheels / axles / bearings are removable as an assembly.  They even included a rubber-tired axle in the box for those who wanted it.  American Models S-gauge steam locos are also built this way.  I just want the O gauge manufacturers to retool (a dirty word with the demographics of our hobby today) so that end consumers have a choice of tires or not.

All good points Ted !

Even if I had access to steam locomotive wheels I wouldn’t attempt to do a swap out on the grooved wheels ....I’m not that good !

I may be in the minority here, but I have no problem with traction tires.  My grades are generally 2.5% or less.  I do run some long trains (18 weighted hoppers) and don’t have a problem going up those grades.  I have replaced tires on diesels, electrics and steamers and don’t find it difficult.  I have a few locos with over 1000 scale miles that have not required tire replacement.

Magne-Traction now, Magne-Traction tomorrow, Magne-Traction forever !

I just use black RTV no problem!

I have given up on tires, especially for steamers with all those small screws in linkages, plus my layout is flat except for slight rise over a waterway.  Been running this for for years with no discernible problems.  Only exception is replacing tires on trolley as it has to climb a hill.

My layout is completely level and my LGB locos are properly weighted so I have NO need for those dadblamed tires. The engines that have them have all had new tires installed and It was fortunate that I had enough original replacements EXCEPT for the 2045, hence my plan to replace the traction tire wheelset with a regular set for that engine.

Recently I used Liquid electrical tape on a williams engine to which I could not get traction tires, the secret is to turn the engine over and with the wheels turning slow brush the liquid on the wheels, let dry for 24 hours.  So far it looks like it will work, the liquid when dry has a high friction co efficient which is  as good or better than traction tires.  if you do purchase LET  and over time the liquid becomes gummy, a phone call to  the mfg indicated  that the addition of Acetone or MEK will fix the gummy  liquid problem. 

We consumers do have some choices, when it comes to diesels.  Of course there's Magne-traction but few of the post war Lionel diesel locomotives qualify as "scale" to meet modern modelers' tastes.  However, many current MTH Premier diesels do offer the 2R-3R option which permits wheel/axle replacement with relative ease.  Notable exceptions are the ALCo PA/B and DL-109/110, FM Trainmaster, plus EMD E6 and E8.  I'll not buy another of those until MTH offers them with 2R-3R trucks.

Interestingly, Lionel has quietly dipped its toe in the waters of wheel/axle replacements! They offer replacement wheel/axle sets for their ALCo S-2 (see the relevant parts list), AND, quite by accident* I came upon this for my BNSF SD70ACe:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...4d-aa18-da5ad1cdf959

You'd think that Lionel feared being burned at the stake for such heresy!  They hid this better than Fredrick III hid Martin Luther at Wartburg Castle.  I have received my two sets of "small flanges" wheel sets which include one rubber tired whee/axle per set.  I have yet to tackle the replacement of the factory equipment rubber tired wheel/axles but it looks to be quite easy and straight forward, complicated only by my desire to replace The Claw with Kadees at the same time.

Note*   My BNSF SD70ACe slipped from a precarious perch on the workbench and hit the concrete floor but only busted the "radiator housing", thus requiring a visit to the Lionel Replacement Parts site and my discovery of their very secret sin.

Recently took a Santa Fe 0-8-0 out for a run with 3 boxcars and noticed the wheels slipping, so I took unit, turned it upside down and the smoke switch on and ran it for several minutes, then let it cool and did the same again. Then after turning off the smoker, placed it back on track and it ran fine. 

So, I 'assume' (be careful there...Uknow what that can do!) that at one time must have put too much fluid in the smoker and it was draining onto the track, thus creating a super slick surface. 

All is fine now, just thought I would put my 'two-cents-worth' in.

I hate traction tires.  They keep coming off both steamers and diesels.  I mostly leave them off instead of replacing them.  I haven't had any problems yet.  NH Joe

THANKS for your feedback!  ☺

Use black RTV, it works fine & doesn't come off!

Where does one find this RTV?

I run streamline steam passenger (name trains) and the rubber band is absolutely needed. Never had a problem with breaking, but I have started to see some older one that have or about to "dry rot" and will need replacing sometime soon.

Charlie

Any auto store.

Someone, either OGR or Kalmbach, needs to publish an exhaustive book called "All About Traction Tires" with chapters on how to replace them on ALL engines that use them, a reference table showing what tires fit what engines, the pro and con of alternative products and the consequences of not replacing tires at all. It needs to be well researched with all manufacturers contributing to it. I would buy one. I'll bet most of the rest of you would too. Traction tires, for better or for worse, are going to be with us for the foreseeable future. It's time that there was an authoritative reference to help us deal with it. I have a 2343 that is 70 years old, built in 1950. I ran it a few days ago. It walked off with 17 cars and did not even break a sweat. If today's trains are going to have that kind of longevity, we need to be able to handle the traction tire problem long term.

tncentrr posted:

I have a 2343 that is 70 years old, built in 1950. I ran it a few days ago. It walked off with 17 cars and did not even break a sweat. If today's trains are going to have that kind of longevity, we need to be able to handle the traction tire problem long term.

 Of course by then DCC and DCS etc engines will be dead as their electronics will have long expired, so traction tires will be least of problems.  By then assuming electronic stores still exists, we will be wiring the motors direct to the rails through a diode bridge and be back running conventionally.

Of course at my age I wont have to worry about tires.

james g lucas posted:

Use black RTV, it works fine & doesn't come off!

There are several kinds of RTV.   What kind are you using?

Thank You

I tried shoe goo, and RTV problem is that you tend to put too much on the wheel and both clump the end result is the  locomotive tends to jump up and down, the problem  of leaving the traction tires off esp if the tires are wide the locomotive tends to get caught on the track or on a curve or a switch. Sometimes it makes a noise as it  tracks in a curve. too much build up of both and the locomotive runs off the track, esp in a curve.

You need to trial the RTV with a ice cream stick, then let it cure over night. 

MONK

Charlie posted:

I run streamline steam passenger (name trains) and the rubber band is absolutely needed.

I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree.  The problem some people encounter with passenger cars is excessive drag from the pick-ups for lighting, etc.  There was at least one series of MTH heavyweights with defective trucks that caused excessive drag.  I also think that car interiors are a needless extravagance.  Unless  your layout is up near eye level, or the roofs are removable, they're not worth the added weight and manufacturing cost, which would be better spent on other engineering enhancements (see below.)

One "out-of-the-box" approach that would render the tires unnecessary, would be to retrofit roller bearing truck sets and battery powered lighting to each car.  No more drag from pick-ups, and much less drag starting and rolling.  Replacing the bearings on the trucks of your favorite passenger consist would be a one-time, lifetime effort.  No more tires!!  In the meantime, I would make sure your wheels turn as freely as possible and your axle bearings are properly lubricated.

If you don't want to put battery lighting in each car, you could switch to LED's and remove the pickups from all but the first car.  A tether would carry the low-current, low-voltage lighting to the remaining cars.  Again, this would be a one time effort, and now a tireless loco would pull your train easily.  A little wheel-slip at startup is very realistic and adds interest.  Unfortunately, by fitting tires and permanent grooved wheels the manufacturers have denied us this pleasure.

May I ask, how steep are your grades?  The tires are a nuisance but the manufacturers keep adding them because people have unrealistic expectations.  If you think you need the tires, fine, but personally I'm not buying another steam loco until they retool and give us the choice to fit smooth tires.

Traction tires are ok but the problem  with Lionel and williams is that the tires can not be obtained for many of the wheels. I am thinking of dragging some of my locomotives out that have traction tires that can not be obtained and putting a cover of Liquid electrical tape on them or RTV so as to prevent the tires from falling apart or drying out with rubber rot. This type of behaviour  by the two firm has no reason to occur unless its a cost problem for them but its a public relations problem that they should think about before stopping production of replacement tires.

Personally, I just don't see why traction tires exist.  This is not the first time the subject of traction tires has come up.   Didn't Lionel engineers solve the problem with Magne-Traction ?

Dan don't you now if the track is not made out of steel magnatraction wont work!

not all tracks are made from steel!

After this discussion, I am glad I decided to 86 the grooved traction driver for a plain one on my LGB 2045 loco. 🙂

I do realize some folks need them to overcome grades with long, heavy trains and that is a good thing!

Ted S posted:

Charlie posted:

I run streamline steam passenger (name trains) and the rubber band is absolutely needed.

I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree.

Ted, you can disagree all you want, I'm an operator and you need traction tires to pull realistic consists with a single streamline steam or diesel. If your pulling a truncated passenger train with five cars and want to call it prototypical, well, that's your choice. Please don't believe what the other guys have told you, listen to the operators actually using the equipment.

The problem some people encounter with passenger cars is excessive drag from the pick-ups for lighting, etc.  There was at least one series of MTH heavyweights with defective trucks that caused excessive drag.  I also think that car interiors are a needless extravagance.  Unless  your layout is up near eye level, or the roofs are removable, they're not worth the added weight and manufacturing cost, which would be better spent on other engineering enhancements (see below.)

Interesting, that is not what I think and I have not seen one post on this forum requesting the manufactures to "reduce or eliminate" the detailed interiors. Again, your choice if you think that might help. Honestly, you could always remove the interiors and add frosted windows yourself. I'm positive Sunset/GGD, MTH, Lionel and Atlas would be severely scolded if they took that approach.

One "out-of-the-box" approach that would render the tires unnecessary, would be to retrofit roller bearing truck sets and battery powered lighting to each car.  No more drag from pick-ups, and much less drag starting and rolling.  Replacing the bearings on the trucks of your favorite passenger consist would be a one-time, lifetime effort.

While I don't/can't disagree with the above statement, it does come down to a cost/benefit with the manufactures and frankly adding the rubber band is much cheaper and for most of us, (I assume) changing a traction tire is not that big of a deal. I do understand some engines are easier than others though.

No more tires!!  In the meantime, I would make sure your wheels turn as freely as possible and your axle bearings are properly lubricated.

If you don't want to put battery lighting in each car, you could switch to LED's and remove the pickups from all but the first car.  A tether would carry the low-current, low-voltage lighting to the remaining cars.  Again, this would be a one time effort, and now a tireless loco would pull your train easily.  A little wheel-slip at startup is very realistic and adds interest.  Unfortunately, by fitting tires and permanent grooved wheels the manufacturers have denied us this pleasure.

Again, all this extra work just to eliminate the "possible" need to change a tire, just does not make sense to me as an operator.

May I ask, how steep are your grades?

No grades, (modular club) and the sharpest curve is O-120 I believe.

The tires are a nuisance.

I agree they can be, but until they figure out to have a little 1/48 scale sand delivered to the rails, I'm ok with traction tires.

but the manufacturers keep adding them because people have unrealistic expectations.

If you mean "unrealistic expectations" as in correct or close to correct length passenger consists, than yes, I am guilty.

If you think you need the tires, fine, but personally I'm not buying another steam loco until they retool and give us the choice to fit smooth tires.

This I have no problem with. For the guys who run short trains, or just display, then yes, a smooth tire option would be great.

Ted, you did not say anything wrong so please don't take the above personally, but making the changes you suggest (LED string lighting, bearings on all trucks, removing the interior detail) vs. a traction tire, is a no contest decision from a manufacturing stand point. Our models are going up in price every year, your suggestions will just compound that rise and honestly, might price out a manufacture from bringing a project to market.

Charlie

Charlie the ball bearings on the passenger car trucks are the answer, in one important respect.  The reason a smooth-tired 4-8-4 can't pull a prototypical 15-car consist in O gauge, is because the physics of the prototype don't scale down well to a model.  The prototype is hard to pull because of its mass, especially if there's any sort of grade.  But the model is hard to pull because of the excess friction/drag.  Especially when starting, if all of the cars have center rail pickups and axle wipers.  Of course the loco also has less mass.  But the ratio of drag to mass is much higher on the model.

If you greatly reduce the drag -- through roller bearings, etc. -- then you wouldn't need rubber tires to overcome that drag.  A little wheelspin at startup is prototypical.  I'll guess that if you helped the train get started- with a pusher(!), or the good old "0-5-0", a smooth-tired loco would be able to keep it rolling at speed.  This is also prototypical.

Adding roller bearings to the car axles is doable, even for the home hobbyist.  (It's definitely easier than replacing a grooved locomotive wheel with a smooth one!)  3rd Rail is using this type of flanged ball bearing on their diesel locomotive axles now.  I'm pretty sure some high-end two rail O scale passenger cars have these types of roller bearings.  That's where I got the idea.  (Note that you'll NEVER see rubber tired locos in two-rail O scale.)  Installing roller-bearing axles on freight cars, especially die-cast cars, would let  you do neat stuff like flying drops or a prototypical hump yard.

Maybe rubber tires are a necessity for the lucky few who have 70' straightaways and O-120 curves.  I'm not trying to deny you or anyone else.  But I'm convinced that most of us would be better off with a no-tire option.  If the manufacturers would redesign our locos in conformance with best accepted engineering practice (removable wheels, axles, and bearings), we wouldn't be having this conversation.  Your loco would have a grooved axle with tires, and mine wouldn't.  We would both be content.  MTH already offers this choice in its HO product line.  I just want the same choice in O gauge.

An informative discussion!