The cost of new?

I wish some fantastically rich person, persons or corporation would do this.  Anything is possible but Wow! 

 

Seriously, it's been done not that long ago:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...ass_A1_60163_Tornado

 

The British Railways Tornado is a 2008 model. It cost around 3 million pounds to build, which is something like $6,000,000.

 

It would probably cost a lot more than that here in the USA because most of the designs would need to be reworked to be compliant with modern safety standards and laws.

Anything is possible but Wow! 

 

Yeah... like what Mr. Jacobsen has done in Sugarcreek Ohio!

 

http://www.ageofsteamroundhouse.com/

RE: the British Railways Tornado project.

 

A 'very limited edition' customised model from The Model Centre (TMC), based on the Bachmann OO scale model in grey livery helped raise funds for the project.

 

That is really cool. I wonder if Lionel released a model of an obsolete engine  whether there would be more interest in the model from our modeling "community" knowing that a percentage of the funds would be donated to the fabrication or restoration of the prototype. 

Not so sure about that. History says that a J1e Hudson existed, and if you are building it from the original builder plans, it is bringing to life something that did exist. Yes, it never actually ran on the NY Central, it never pulled passenger cars or freight and so forth, so in that way it isn't history, but it still is history in that it is bringing back to life what once existed. 

 

The other point is that even when we rebuild the engines that once did in fact operate, they are not really the same engine. Modern safety requirements make them different than the old units, and the parts used in restoration are modern made, using modern materials, so it isn't really 'stock' or 'historical' totally either, it is kind of like among gearheads arguments that if the parts are not all original with matching numbers it isn't 'authentic', others who are fine with repro parts *shrug*. 

 

It comes down to the same argument we have had on here about 'protypical' authenticity, ie engines with roadnames that never had them and so forth,it comes down in the end to what we consider 'real', in this case what is really historical. 

Any steam locomotive model from any manufacturer is a model of an obolete locomotive.

 

Rusty

Even in regual service, steam locomotives were not the same during their lives as 'fresh out of the box" from the builders.

 

Locomotives are like the legendary axe:  It's had the head replaced twice and the handle three times, but it's still the same axe...

 

Rusty

Its not feasible. The United States does not even have a large enough foundry to pour the cast frame to make this locomotive. The investment in facilities, tooling, labour, engineering, materials, and manpower, would make it ridiculously expensive. At this point you may as well make a bunch.
Even if you made it to print alot of the specified materials are not available.
at least in the states...

Would a moder frame need to be cast?

Many steam engines had the cylinders and frame cast as one piece.  This gave them incredible strength.  The infrastructure to do this kind of work was destroyed a long time ago.

 

I suppose that you could re-engineer the frame and other parts to make it from welded steel, etc.   This would not be building to the original specifications, however.

 

Building and engine to original specifications would just be too expensive and not feasible.

 

I believe your billionaire would be better off funding the restoration of another Big Boy, the Cab Forward in the CA State Railroad Museum, or one of the many steam or diesel engines in any one of the other railroad museums.   I think the St. Louis and B&O museums have many candidates that could be restored.  I would love to see a GG1 restored to operation.   There are plenty of candidates for restoration around that people would love to see in operation.

 

I think that we are very fortunate to have so many operating steam engines today.   We should enjoy and support what we have.

 

Joe 

I agree with Joe. Even welded steel introduces stress risers and corrosion issues that the one piece cast frame is superior. The Art of making steam engines peaked in the late 40's with modern steam engines produced by Baldwin, ALCO, Lima, Schenectady, etc, they were just perfecting stronger fire boxes, boilers make of silicon magnesium steel alloy, modern technology and developments that just came to screaming halt once the diesel was introduced.

I was watching a documentary about an aging U.S. Locomotive on a tourist railroad that was just wore out. It was cheaper to purchase a Chinese Locomotive and have it shipped to the states and modified....

The horror of it all was the first one they shipped went down with the ship!...

Well, that really isn't true. The welding technologies have increased so dramatically over the last 50 years, that it is now entirely feasible to weld large castings and plate steel components together. The Tornado project in England, proved that. Plus, the current Mechanical Standards Committee, as well as the NBIC & FRA are now formulating excepted standards & practices for NEW ALL WELDED boilers for steam locomotive use within the U.S.A..

 

The engineering and manufacturing capabilities certainly do exist within the U.S.A. to construct a new & modern steam locomotive. That said, why any one would want to spends millions, and millions, and millions of dollars to construct a new PRR T1, is totally beyond me. The T1s were too big to operate over many lines on the PRR, were extremely maintenance intensive, were difficult to run except for only the best and most knowledgeable Engineers, were smokey & sooty at high speeds, and were so long that some places couldn't turn them. In todays modern era of liability insurance issues, it seems inconceivable that something like a T1 would be allowed to operate anyplace on the U.S. railroad system.

 

Now, if somebody REALLY wants to blow THAT huge amount of money to construct a "new steam locomotive", why not try a PROVEN design, with an IMPECCABLE performance & and maintenance record?   Like a very high horse power New York Central Niagara 4-8-4. The Niagaras were designed and built for tight clearances (unlike the PRR T1), ease of maintenance (unlike the PRR T1), RELIABLE high speed performance and ease of operation by Engine-men (unlike the PRR T1), and lastly a 4-8-4 will be able to go just about anyplace in the U.S. with a good sized passenger consist.

I concur with most of the opinions stated here--- To make a new steam engine would be ridiculosly expensive. The cast frames that were used on the originals would be almost impossible to obtain. The British Tornado was buildable because the frame IS a welded one. That's the way most European steamers were built.

      I have a picture of the Western Maryland 734 as my desktop background- it's a nealy head on shot that clearly shows the cylinder saddle casting-- one continous huge piece of steel. If that ever developed a crack, it's goodbye charlie---

 

Not really. Simply chase the crack, Vee it out with an air-arc, and weld it back together. 

That's exactly how we repair big large castings in cranes.

This is a fun Topic.  Many of you know that a Multi-Billionaire

is as we discuss this, building a complete replica of the Titanic.

From what I read the new Titanic is booked for the next few years.

 

To rebuild a Hudson or GGI from back in the day would be great, not

not just for train guys like us, but many who for the first time would

see what these marvels from a bygone age would look like, and the 

power they represent on the rails.  

 

Nothing would surprise me if this came to pass, after all you could

have knocked me down with a feather last week, when at the mall

with my wife, two guys in suits were walking opposite us, wearing

Wing Tips.

 

Many thanks,

 

Billy C 

Yes...and they are at it again..

This time with a Gresley class P2 (2-8-2) steam engine.

#2007 "Prince of Wales" should take about 7 years to build and cost about 5 millions pounds (US$ 8.5 millions)

 

 

Please donate generously.

 

The P2 Steam project website

 

 

The real limitation in all of this is not the technical capabilities but the incredible negativity of the railroad community at large ...exceeded only the egos of many of the same !     As for building a Niagara new...sure it's a great little 4-8-4...that blows out boiler courses on a regular basis, and sometimes the complete unit. Add a tender that  won't like your track, and we find a chooch not far removed from the T1 PRR for challenges.   NYCS Hudson makes more sense, IMHO. 

Haven't we already done this twice in the past couple of years, with the Leviathan and Northern Central's locomotive William H. Simpson?  OK I realize they are not the 20th century behemoths you are talking about, but instead are their 19th century ancestors that have been brought back.   

True, but you sure as heck will NOT be loading a PRR T1 on a flat-bed trailer, like the Leviathan, in order to take her to different "events" around the U.S..

Road this replica Engine last summer in Hanover PA.  The conductor told me the cost to build was $7M.  Considering this is a small engine, the Big Boy might be considerably more to build.

 

http://steamintohistory.com/home

 

 

Yes, but nobody is building a NEW "Big Boy". The Union Pacific will be re-buildin/overhauling an existing locomotive, #4014. That is a whole lot different.

WMSR 734 has a two piece steam chest, and if it ever cracked, it can be fixed. Look at these two photos:

These cracks were there when she came to the Western Maryland Scenic. No one seems to know how they got there, some say maybe she was in an accident.

I wonder if maybe when it was cast, it was cooled improperly, and cracked, and then repaired. It requires that cast be heated to weld, and to heat a large part like this

one would think it would have been done at the builders.

 

Ed

If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the touring Strasburg-built "caboose with side rods" Thomas's. 

 

It can't operate independently and needs a locomotive at the other end of the train to push it along.  The Thomas "driver" has no control over the train other than brakes.

 

The functional Thomas (ex-BEDT 0-6-0) looks a little different:

The face is removed when "off duty."

 

Rusty

 

When I asked Mr. David Kloke, builder of both locomotives, to pose for a photo at Hanover Junction, where President Lincoln changed trains on his way to deliver his Gettysburg Address during the dedication of the National Cemetery, he insisted we include these two charming young ladies from Steam into History

On my "bucket list"....765, and the above lovely loco, the Leviathan!

 

Ed

Warren Buffett is a multi-billionaire, owns a railroad (BNSF) and could easily afford to build a new steam engine.  Haven't heard a word from his camp about doing it.  Hmm, tells you something.

Yes well, Mr. Buffett may be a Lionel collector/enthusiast, and his company may own the BNSF Railway, but,,,,,,,,,,,,he isn't stupid! 

You are right...He isn't stupid!  He can no more build his "own" steamer than you or I. The biggest part of a large steamer building project will be getting together the minds and the facilities to do it. The little engines, 4-4-0s etc. are faaar less demanding in that regard. This is the current thrust of the PRR T1 Trust.  I'm sure Mr. Buffett would never sell off profitable investments to do a steamer in 12" / Foot even if it was his favorite piece....unless he was absolutely certain it would get done, and done right. I'd also venture to say that he'd want to see someone else do it successfully over here first.  Part of his being "smart" is knowing what the real limitations are, and which ones are self generated.  It would be most interesting to be able to pick his brains on this subject...as I'm sure the thought has crossed his mind.   OTOH, Mr. Buffett is a model train collector, no doubt..but if he tries running and operating much of the current fare....he won't have time or energy to do much prototype "modeling",   sorry to say!

 

Like we've been trying to tell you.

It's usually the other way around...

Believing is action based on intelligent and reasoned thought.   Building a large steamer out of peanut butter and jelly ain't gonna cut it, even with a creamy caramel center !   OTOH, this may be just the recipe yunz need for a Thomas re-creation !

Just my opinion, but I sure hope you don't actually speak the same language as how you type comments on this, and other forums, especially if you have actively been trying to promote fundraising for a PRR T1, or an NYC Hudson.

I don't think anything on any of this is going to happen until UP 4014 is running, and that is a BIG IF.  UP itself or somebody is paying BIG BUCKS to get this done.  Most people with that sort of $$$ will be waiting to see how the rebuild goes, public reaction overal, et. al.  Who knows.  Somebody with smart money will get the 3985 back in service and 15 year inspection.

Whazza matter?  Yunz guys run out of napkins !    

Right and return on investment will be nil..if any