I recently read on the old RYPN.org forums about how apparently, the Southern had restored three of their Ps-4 Pacifics for restoration. However, only the 1401 was ever saved by the Smithsonian due to its association with FDR.
As such, I was curious if anyone had information on what the other two Ps-4s intially set aside for preservation were. I'd be grateful for any and all input.
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The 1401 pulled FDR's funeral train, so it had multiple layers of significance for historical purposes.
@mark s posted:The 1401 pulled FDR's funeral train, so it had multiple layers of significance for historical purposes.
I know that. But what I'm asking is if anyone has any info on what the other two Ps-4s the Southern refurbished for possible preservation were.
Perhaps I am ill-informed, but I never heard that the Southern Ry saved any other PS-4's. Southern was a relatively early dieselizer (1953), so might have been pretty unsentimental about steam locomotives. It probably was only the FDR connection that saved #1401.
This is the first I've heard of two other Ps-4's being allegedly saved. It doesn't make any sense that Southern would go through the expense of having two locomotives "all dressed up with nowhere to go." If there were two other's saved, it certainly would known in preservation circles.
Sounds like this is right up there with the "NYC Hudson hidden in a barn in Indiana" territory.
Rusty
I have heard that Southern offered the city of Atlanta PS-4 #1396 for display. But then mayor Hartsfield declined the offer since they already had A&WP 4-6-2 #290. Of course Hartsfield was an aviation guy since the airport was named after him.
@Johnny Winkler posted:
That was the forum I was referring to where I first heard of the story.
Correction: Southern is supposed to have offered Atlanta a PS-4 before the 290 was accepted.
Yeah, I thought some others might be interested and I re-read it.
Trains Magazine had a section titled "Steam News Photos"and had a photo of #1401 in the Ivy Street Roundhouse in Washington, DC, being held for historical purposes. There were NO other PS-4's pictured, or referenced. This was the Dec 1960 "all steam issue", without digging through my archives. I'm 75, lived through the late steam era, and followed such doings quite closely. Never heard of other PS-4's being held.
Urban legend?
Just railfans' wishful thinking. And railfans who are far removed in age from the period when wholesale scrapping of steam locomotives occurred. ALL PS-4's were scrapped between 1948 and '53.......except one (1401). Railroad managements were completely unsentimental about steam. Those Southern Ry steam locomotives that survived were in ownership by non-Southern Ry entities.
Here's what is known. The main scrapping of the Ps-4s started in 1952. In early 1953, they did a display in Spencer with 1393, a Class J 2-8-0 #544, and a few diesels for the Rowan County centennial. Word was at the time that the 1393 was destined to go to the Smithsonian. Both engines were eventually scrapped. I've heard Atlanta turned one down. I've also heard Spencer and Charlotte were possibles as well.
That said, remember this was 1953 and whatever preservation movement that existed a few years later didn't exist at that point in time. A couple years later and we'd probably have several Ps-4s in preservation. Southern just dieselized too early to be able to save much.
I can't get links to work on my tablet but search RYPN for Southern PS4 and you will see a few postings about the other 2 PS4s. I remember back in the early days of Southern yahoo discussion groups there was a thread about the rumoured Atlanta PS4. The Atlanta chapter NRHS originally had their equipment in the city's Grant Park.
Ps-4 No. 1410 might still be in existence somewhere...
@smd4 posted:Ps-4 No. 1410 might still be in existence somewhere...
Yeah, right next to that NYC Hudson hiding in that mysterious barn in Indiana...
Rusty
Well, it was still in existence in 1972, on public display.
Where? Bunk
In the midst of a severe depression, a railroad serving the most impoverished section of the United States, built a new locomotive? At a time when the major locomotive builders had no orders at all? I'm not going to engage in an argument on this topic. Have fun, Steve.
@smd4 posted:Well, it was still in existence in 1972, on public display.
And yet not a single photo can be found of it on display.
Rusty
Yes. In 1931, at the height of the Great Depression, engine repair work on the Southern was severely reduced. In order to foster morale and teamwork, the Southern engaged the personnel at 10 Lines West shops to jointly build the locomotive.
The 1:16 scale engine was constructed by Southern shop machinists and boilermakers exactly as the prototypes were; cast wheel centers with shrunk on tires, operating stoker, crown brasses in the driving boxes, with grease cellars below; monel metal for crosshead guides--even a fully-functioning cross-compound air pump that could operate at a pressure as low as 55 pounds. The shops designated it as 1410--in sequence with the last Ps-4 built--so there would be no duplication on the roster.
Last seen at the Southern's headquarters in Washington, DC.
You can read all about it in the June 1972 Model Railroader.
(P.S. There's a color photo just for you, Rusty, and the roof is NOT painted red).
Are you talking about the live steam model built way back then???
@EscapeRocks posted:Are you talking about the live steam model built way back then???
@Andrew Boyd posted:I recently read on the old RYPN.org forums about how apparently, the Southern had restored three of their Ps-4 Pacifics for restoration. However, only the 1401 was ever saved by the Smithsonian due to its association with FDR.
This is from a Wikipedia article, and I read a detailed story about this some years ago that said the same thing. The engine wasn't saved by the Smithsonian. It was the personal effort of the great Graham Claytor (who was also a huge fan of steam) that saved the 1401. I seem to recall that it took some convincing to get the Smithsonian to take it. I never heard that it was saved particularly because of association with the FDR funeral train, although it has some historical significance due to that, and that may have weighed into Claytor's argument to deButts to save that particular engine. The indication was that only the 1401 was saved - all others were scrapped.
" In the 1950s, war hero and outside legal counsel to Southern Graham Claytor (who would later become Southern's president) convinced then-Southern president Harry deButts to donate one of the retired Ps-4s to the Smithsonian instead of scrapping it. In this way 1401 was saved, and has been on display at the Smithsonian since it was delivered there on November 25, 1961."
Also, this:
"When Graham Claytor was a Southern executive in the mid-1960s, he attempted to lease 1401 from the Smithsonian for operational use in Southern's steam excursion program. The Smithsonian refused, and Claytor leased Southern Railway No. 4501 (originally a freight locomotive with a 2-8-2 wheel arrangement) and painted it in the green, gold, and silver scheme instituted for the Ps-4s."
This seems to confirm that there were no other Ps-4s in existence that could have been used.
@smd4 posted:
Ha-Ha.
Then the joke's on us. It should also be in the catch-all-multiple-scale HONGZ Forum, not Real Trains because it is a model...
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:Ha-Ha.
Then the joke's on us. It should also be in the catch-all-multiple-scale HONGZ Forum, not Real Trains because it is a model...
Rusty
Built by "prototype" shop personnel, though. And it was on the railroad's motive power roster.
@smd4 posted:Built by "prototype" shop personnel, though. And it was on the railroad's motive power roster.
Still only a model...
Rusty
...Built for prototypical railroad reasons.
Some railroads were quick to get rid of steam and not look back because diesels were the answer to cutting costs, less maintenance, and less fuel stops. But, yet the Southern started a steam excursion program in the 60's even though the then CEO wasn't really fond of the idea. But the Claytors were steam buffs. And only 1 Ps4 was preserved, and it will never run again because it is trapped in the Smithsonian. Norfolk Southern seems to have an anti steam excursion mentality again, although they just babysat 611 for 300 plus miles from Roanoke, VA to Strasburg, PA for its summer stay. But that was not a public excursion. I think NS doesn't mind moving a steam locomotive once in a while, but for now public excursions on NS are over.
@Robert K posted:Norfolk Southern seems to have an anti steam excursion mentality again, although they just babysat 611 for 300 plus miles from Roanoke, VA to Strasburg, PA for its summer stay. But that was not a public excursion. I think NS doesn't mind moving a steam locomotive once in a while, but for now public excursions on NS are over.
You can't run a mainline excursion without insurance, which is very pricey.
Mainline excursion insurance was covered under Amtak's umbrella (for lack of a better term.) Amtrak no longer covers steam or diesel excursions, so even an outing where no Amtrak equipment is involved like the Nebraska Zephyr's Chicago-Galesburg/Quincy trip of 2012 is no longer possible.
Rusty
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