@Fatman ACE! What a find. Thanks for the continuing historical background that accompanies your finds. I know I enjoy these as a only Lionel collector. Keep up with your hunts!
Fatman: What a fabulous set !! Thank you for your discussion on the Brimtoy / Marx potential connection. If the connection is via the motor components, then it is also a potential US connection as well since all the motors for British Marx were manufactured in the US - at least the electric ones, I am less sure of the clockwork.
I especially liked what appears to be a coupling between the coaches that appears to have a simulated vestibule. This makes for a very realistic consist and really looks sharp!
Thanks again for posting.
Don
@Fatman posted:But get a load of this eyeful
I was just thinking to myself "hey we were cheated out of our weekly findings from Fatman !" when I doubled back to see you had snuck in when the lights were out.
That set is a beauty, Don Mac stole my thunder, I was about to cleverly point out how the coach coupling resembles a vestibule. (I wouldn't mind seeing a close-up of that). Very cool, congrats on your acquisition.
I echo the sentiment of others regarding the history lessons and insightful commentaries that accompany your posts. They are always a treat to read !
LOL Thanks Guys !
But just remember I am not a definitive source of knowledge , I just try to pass on a summation of what I learn researching and postulating on new aquisitions . Always feel free to jump in with corrections or alternative views at any stage , its all about learning and having a bit O Fun 
I recently also got my second IGRA set, made in Czechoslovakia around 1967 ...I love the fact that Czech kids were playing with these beautiful tin sets into the 70's however the company introduced plastics not long after these were made and the tinplate tradition died a little ... There is not a lot of history out in the WWW about them and 99% of it is in Czech ( lol ) so a company history is not forthcoming at this stage but from what I can glean from several sources it was a Co-operative Factory which formed in the mid to later 60's and wound up in the 80's some time ...
I already had one Igra set , this one below is a later production and has "GASP" Plastic wheels 
But now I have the full tin set they made early on .. this version below is the first one from about 1967 with tinplate all round and a great industrial look ! No one could criticise their wonderful use of ribbing and embossing
Wow Fatman...I don't know who your "supplier" or "investigator" is but he is certainly doing quite a job for you. The Brimtoy was fabulous and is a manufacturer I am familiar with, however the "IGRA" set is a new maker to me. What a great set and your earlier one is super as well. Thanks for sharing.
Best Wishes
Don
Fatman / Will / Rich ...I noticed that all of you have the same logo by your signature..."The 48 Club" ... would you tell us about that organization? Is membership possible.
Don
@Don McErlean posted:Fatman / Will / Rich ...I noticed that all of you have the same logo by your signature..."The 48 Club" ... would you tell us about that organization? Is membership possible.
Don
It's a highly secret society that exists only on the internet. Here's a link: https://ogrforum.com/...3#154307984486144853
In order to join, you must read all 300+ posts in that thread.
Now that we've told you, we have to kill you.
OH NO! I miss eligibility by 4 sq ft!! My layout, which I dub the Leonardtown and Savannah, or L&S (nickname "long and skinny") is 3 ft by 12 ft. So I miss the 32 sq ft maximum. Disappointed.
Wait a Minute...I have a second, temporary layout on the porch of our summer cottage...its only 4ft X 4ft and fully Marx (one 0-27 circle). Can I use that to qualify? I don't have any pictures of that but it is for my Marx 4205, 4 wheel, NYC freight set that I play with in the summer.
Don
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@Mallard4468 posted:It's a highly secret society that exists only on the internet. Here's a link: https://ogrforum.com/...3#154307984486144853
Curses!...I think my Scenic Railway is 49" wide ! Have to check the length to see if I can sneak in.
G-man 24 ... I am in the same boat...need a dispensation for 4 sq ft. Don't know who the "Grand Chairman" is however...to whom do we plead our case?? 
Don
@Don McErlean, your summer railway will get you membership and we need members for the Tinplate Chapter. Just Fatman and I so far and you will note he is also in the Australia Chapter. Apply directly with a post to the The 48 Club topic. Our grand poobah and founder and guiding spirit is @baltimoretrainworks, AKA Jerry. Other than a small layout, the only requirement is to have a certain savoir faire and predilection for dry martinis.
@G-Man24, check that measurement or get your saw out.
@G-Man24 posted:Curses!...I think my Scenic Railway is 49" wide ! Have to check the length to see if I can sneak in.
As long as the footprint can fit in 32 square feet you're good.
@Don McErlean posted:Wait a Minute...I have a second, temporary layout on the porch of our summer cottage...its only 4ft X 4ft and fully Marx (one 0-27 circle).
You're good too!
Jerry
@Don McErlean posted:My layout, which I dub the Leonardtown and Savannah, or L&S (nickname "long and skinny") is 3 ft by 12 ft.
BTW, I love that layout- great little track plan, but I would worry about the trains toppling over. I guess that is about as narrow a table as you could fit an O-31 loop on without the track hanging over the edge. 
@Don McErlean posted:Wow Fatman...I don't know who your "supplier" or "investigator" is but he is certainly doing quite a job for you. The Brimtoy was fabulous and is a manufacturer I am familiar with, however the "IGRA" set is a new maker to me. What a great set and your earlier one is super as well. Thanks for sharing.
Best Wishes
Don
Hee Hee .. Don I am gonna have to take full responsibility for the Brimtoy as it was found and bought by me , no supplier involved this time , however DutchBoy! was involved in the IGRA but not in his usual sense ... He listed it on ebay this week and didn't bother telling me as he knew I already had the other IGRA and thought they were the same ( they aren't lol) so I did my usual thing of " Well let it ride , but if it doesnt sell , I'll take it " .. and it didnt sell .. which was rather silly as it was listed at a very good start price ... so its coming down south !
As the others have mentioned the 48 club is full of ratbags having fun with little layouts , finally proving the adage " Its not the size of it , but what you do with it that matters ! "
@G-Man24 , Jerry thats something you will often see in later production mechanisms ( and some early ones too tho ) as its a uber cost effective way of providing some minimal protection against flying springs .
In the 60's and 70's different countries were legislating toy safety standards and exposed mechanisms started to annoy them so the spring "fold" was a token get around I think 
( And now we have a generation of kids who think a papercut is the worst thing that can happen to them ... Darwins Theory has been denied!!! )
heads up for anyone wanting a project .. there is a Brimtoy 6201 on UK ebay for 20£ buy it now with non -working clockwork and really poor litho ... but its rare !!! #114739664954.. not affiliated in any way with me or anyone I know .. just blown away less than a week after I find one there is another ... Super easy to fit a std Marx early motor for electric too .. it slots right in I am told
( sorry if I am breaking rulez but I reckon its better someone here gets it ... I am thinking @WindupGuy in particular ??? interesting motor if nothing else for you )
@Fatman posted:heads up for anyone wanting a project .. there is a Brimtoy 6201 on UK ebay for 20£ buy it now with non -working clockwork and really poor litho ... but its rare !!! #114739664954.. not affiliated in any way with me or anyone I know .. just blown away less than a week after I find one there is another ... Super easy to fit a std Marx early motor for electric too .. it slots right in I am told
( sorry if I am breaking rulez but I reckon its better someone here gets it ... I am thinking @WindupGuy in particular ??? interesting motor if nothing else for you )
I can't find that listing, but there is a 1950s Brimtoy station on there from an Aussie seller. You better track him down, or maybe you know him.
Will / Fatman / baltimoretrainworks / All the "48 club" : Thanks for allowing me to join in, my little 4 X 4 layout on the front porch (enclosed) at our summer place allows me to "play with" my plastic Marx trains and my 7 year old nephew. This year we are planning to make buildings and a station out of some conveniently sized cardboard boxes. At the moment it is only the single 0-27 oval that came with the set (Marx 4205) but I have some switches and a 90 degree crossover that might make a turn back or an "X" run that might work. Anyway its just fun. I "augmented" the 4205 consist with a few other Marx plastic gondolas because its easy for my nephew to "give things a ride" .
Thanks to all for including me.
Don
Ooops forgot, Will thank you for the complement on the L&S...you are right about the width. My constrains were 1) I share the room with my daughter in law and her fitness equipment 2) I had storage shelves for part of my collection and 3) I had to leave room for me to fit between the layout and the display shelves. The real constraint on the 36" width was that I had to get an 0-27 loop INSIDE of it and still allow room for 2 trains to pass each other. So I had to put a short straight (about 4") at the apex of the 0-31 curve to give some additional inside the loop space. Yes you are right, there is a danger of the trains tipping off especially as they hit the end curves, but they are closest on the straight and have a little clearance to the edge on the loop . However, it has happened, especially if I am not paying close enough attention to the throttle. Heavy steam engines (like my 736 Berk) are the worst so I tend to run small diesels and steamers.
Thanks again for your comment. P.S. I am MORE than fine with the Martini's.
Don
@G-Man24 posted:Is that tab folded over as some kind of safety in case the spring lets go ?
I believe the tab is there to prevent the spring from opening to such an extent that it would interfere with the operation of the train and the track. Potentially causing the engine to fall over.
Fatman, the tin wheel cars are from "zbrojavka" set. Box shown here:
I also like their clockwork trolley but have yet to purchase one at a decent price.
as collectors become more educated the "honey hole" of buying them at a somewhat reasonable price has disappeared. Used to be able to find a 4-car pass. set for less than 30.00 in decent shape. The tanker car for the freight sets are also tough finds.
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Hello again tinplate fans...just got a delivery of some interesting stuff...pre-war semaphore and crossing signals. I bought a "lot" on evil bay because I want to distribute them over my layout so I was not too concerned with condition, but these turned out OK in most cases. All of the semaphores are 10 3/8 " high, dual blade, and mechanically operated. The crossing signs are American Flyer (EZ they said that on the sign) and what appears to be an Ives 111 made from, 1912 until 1930. The semaphores are a partial mystery. I have no positive ID or year of manufacture. In Greenbergs, "American Flyer O'Gauge" book, there is a reprint of a 1922 AF advertisement that appeared in the "Youth's Companion" which illustrates a set containing a semaphore that looks almost exactly like these but who knows.
Anyway here are my "new" signals. Here is the American Flyer crossing signals (one with a base and one without) and the source of their manufacture is easy, as it says "American Flyer R.R." on the center cross piece. I am sure they are pre-war but do not know the time period, although a similar sign is pictured in that 1922 advertisement.
Here is what I believe (IAW my Ives reference book) is an IVES 111 crossing signal type 111 dating from 1912 to 1930. Note that the warning is printed very differently with "DANGER" on the center cross piece and "Look out " / "For the Locomotive" on the two angled lower arms. This one is in rough shape but then it could be 110 years old!!
Finally the semaphores, the lot contained 4 - two green and two red all dual armed. All the actuation works via mechanical linkages to the base and none are illuminated. Here are the green ones, with a picture taken both inside and outside to try and get some better light.
And here are the red ones...same construction except the staff and base is colored red vice green. Appears to be original paint but could be a re-paint by some previous owner. The green ones are pretty clearly an original color.
So I am planning on inserting some or all of these on my layout just for effect, I think it will add to the "Hobby Shop" look I am trying for and maybe just add to the fun.
OBTW - I know some of you are far, FAR more knowledgeable on pre war Flyer and other makes than I am, so if you recognize anything here and have data please share. Especially on the semaphores, all I have done is guess based on the thinnest of data.
Don
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Don,
Those are all Flyer semaphores. They did come in other colors than green, but I am unaware of them coming in red. I have never seen them in red. I would suspect they are repaints, but who knows?
NWL
Don,
After taking a close look at the red semaphores, I would say they are repainted. On one of them, one can see faint white stripes under the red paint on the blades. Also, I would think that having the blades and the mast being the same color, would be unusual.
NWL
Looks like they were fond of that base, they used the same one on the semaphore and the crossing signals.
I like that fancy font they used for American Flyer R. R.
@Allegheny posted:I believe the tab is there to prevent the spring from opening to such an extent that it would interfere with the operation of the train and the track. Potentially causing the engine to fall over.
Exactly this too ... I actually lay awake in bed last night thinking " Shoot I forgot to add that lol "
Cheaper mechs with lighter springs have a propensity to over run and the spring can expand well past the housing as they expand , as the spring is not as rigidly tempered as bigger thicker ones ( it wants to be flat as opposed to coiled . )
@Will the Brimtoy is still there .. however it may not be showing up in searches as the seller doesnt have international postage enabled ... if you search in UK 'Bay without your address set to your country its there
or .... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114739664954
@Jim O'C I am looking for a trolley myself lol .. race ya! Yes the earlier set was marketed under "zbrojovka" or Armoury ... which I think might relate back to our good friends back at Stella ... which was also incorporated into the State Factory status at various times in its life it seems incongrous for us to think of toys and armaments being made in the same factories as a collective so "Armory" then "IGRA " and no doubt IGRA stands for "something " in Czech ??? We need a Czech guy on the forums lol
But I turned up an article just now which states
"
After the Second World War, Czechoslovakia became a satellite state of the Soviet Union and the government’s policy became a Soviet style “socialist system”. Large enterprises were nationalised and small business were forced to form cooperative groups, or Co-ops.
IGRA (the name, a product of the time, originated from the Russian
word “igra” meaning “game” in English) was created by forcibly
merging a several small manufacturers. IGRA started production in
1950 and manufactured various tools, products from hard plastic,
Bakelite, musical instruments, toys and games. Over time, the company concentrated on toys, games, model airplane and boat kits, slot car parts and eventually on model cars. "
( From https://www.maronline.org.uk/igra-old-timers/ )
So it seems the Czech State loved to be literal lol
zbrojovka .... armoury
IGRA .... Games
Ahh the benefits of the Former Socialist State ... when you go to buy Ice Cream , no popping out to Ben and Jerry's .or Wendy's back then . You just come home with " Ice Cream" on the bucket ! No Sorbent or Kleenex You wiped your bum with industrial "Toaletní Papír" possibly with Lenin embossed !
@Don McErlean posted:Ooops forgot, Will thank you for the complement on the L&S...you are right about the width. My constrains were 1) I share the room with my daughter in law and her fitness equipment 2) I had storage shelves for part of my collection and 3) I had to leave room for me to fit between the layout and the display shelves. The real constraint on the 36" width was that I had to get an 0-27 loop INSIDE of it and still allow room for 2 trains to pass each other. So I had to put a short straight (about 4") at the apex of the 0-31 curve to give some additional inside the loop space. Yes you are right, there is a danger of the trains tipping off especially as they hit the end curves, but they are closest on the straight and have a little clearance to the edge on the loop . However, it has happened, especially if I am not paying close enough attention to the throttle. Heavy steam engines (like my 736 Berk) are the worst so I tend to run small diesels and steamers.
Thanks again for your comment. P.S. I am MORE than fine with the Martini's.
Don
There is something appealing about a long narrow layout- it's almost like a point to point. I guess the perspective exaggerates the length. You could put a tunnel on each end and it would be realistic because you would never see the trains tun around.
@Fatman posted:Exactly this too ... I actually lay awake in bed last night thinking " Shoot I forgot to add that lol "
Cheaper mechs with lighter springs have a propensity to over run and the spring can expand well past the housing as they expand , as the spring is not as rigidly tempered as bigger thicker ones ( it wants to be flat as opposed to coiled . )
From an aesthetics point of view I guess I would prefer to see a separate bracket held on with some fancy rivets or screws...but from a manufacturing standpoint I have to admire the cleverness of just notching the frame and bending the tab over like that.
Don,
Here are photos of the various Flyer semaphores that they sold over the years.
The earliest, c. 1916, features a cast iron base and the lower blade features a fish-tale cut. Colors are black base and lower portion of mast, with white mast above.
The cast iron base was short lived, with the stamped steel base appearing by c. 1917. Colors change to dark blue base and lower portion, with white upper mast.
At some point, there is a brown color mast/base
Then there is a gray base/mast version
Not sure if there was ever an early version with the double mast posts that was painted green. The semaphores eventually change to a single mast post, with lithographed blades.
Then a short-lived semaphore blade c. 1935 with the blade being more commonly used on the lighted versions of the semaphores. This one also regressed to having a double post mast. Not sure why, as the ones shown above are shown in earlier catalogs than the version shown below.
Then a different style of mast, which is the latest version
Those are only the double semaphores. The single semaphores are generally similar, but some differences
Again, the earliest one has a cast iron base. Difference between single and doubles is that the single blade semaphore has a single mast post and the top of the post is crudely cut off (ie it is square cut instead of rounded).
This one, c. 1917, features dark blue, and rounded cut on the top of the post, but still has the fish-tale cut to the blade.
Another early one c. 1918, this one without the fish-tale cut to the semaphore
Then a gray base/mast version
Next up is a green mast version. I suspect this one was sold during the same era as the brown mast version of the double semaphore, as I have never observed a brown mast version of the single semaphore.
Then the later versions, again with the lithographed semaphore blades, which apparently are common enough that I did not think to take photos of one.
Again, there was a short lived one with the odd style of semaphore blade, c. 1935
There is also a single bladed version with the late odd-shaped blade, but again, I apparently have not photographed one yet for my on-line photo archive.
The ones with the lithographed blades can come in various color configurations (red or green masts with combinations of red or green bases).
Hope this helps to clarify some of the color/style variations of these.
The rarest of these (based on my experience) are the early c. 1916 versions with the cast iron bases. Specifically the single blade variations, of which I have only observed the lone one in my collection. I am sure there must be more of them, but I just have not observed any others for sale.
NWL
NWL: Thank you almost is inadequate compared with the info you provided. I agree I think the red ones are re-paints , I found a place under their bases where other colors were still there. Thanks to you however I can place the green ones and I really love to find the history on items I find.
Best regards
Don
NWL: I have compared my semaphores with the data that you sent. Under a magnifying glass in better (natural) light I can absolutely agree you that the "red" ones are in fact re-paints as you suspected. I can even see, in one blade, the dual white stripes under the red paint. I guess that some young person, likely a boy, wanted them red and Dad or Grandad obliged or maybe he even did it himself. It's fun to speculate.
I have now concluded that that ones I previously called "green" are really grey. The paint may have changed color somewhat over the years, but there is no sign of being repainted. I found that when I looked under the stamped steel base, in the hollow of the raised portion, I could get the best look at the original color and I would characterize it as grey...although perhaps a shade darker than the one you pictured. There is no doubt about the semaphore blades on the grey mast however, they are an exact match, including the lens colors to the one you pictured with the grey base. They are the dual mast with the rounded top and a control lever for each blade on the bottom linked to the blade by a rod.
Well, I have no idea of the collector value or the rarity, but I only paid $12 for the lot of 6 signal signs including the 4 semaphores and 3 crossing signs. So I feel pretty good about it. Once I get them around the layout I will post an "after" picture.
Thank you again for taking the time to post the information. It is frustrating that there is almost no coverage of either stations or signals for American Flyer pre-war O- gauge reference books I have . Yet my Ives reference books, also published by Greenberg, have an entire chapter on stations and signals. Oh well, I suppose that's life. The LCCA just announced that they had added a section on American Flyer O'gauge to their digital archives so I will see what is there.
Don
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@Don McErlean posted:It is frustrating that there is almost no coverage of either stations or signals for American Flyer pre-war O- gauge reference books I have .
Don
Don,
The American Flyer Accessories are covered in the Greenberg's Guide to American Flyer Wide Gauge. The back 1/3 (possibly more) is devoted to Flyer accessories/stations/etc.
NWL
Wow huge props to @Don McErlean and @Nation Wide Lines for such an in depth look at these early beauties !
Todays insertion from me is a little bit of "rinse and repeat" with another PionerExpressen find.
This time its a neat little Esso tanker from the Mid-50's coming from Denmark shortly
And simply because the same seller also listed ANOTHER clockwork Wittrock Locomotive that was going for stupidly cheap bidding I took a simple punt on it with a maximum bid of 15£ and its coming to me for the massive amount of £6.56 .. or 12AUD or $8.80USD ... and Denmark has really cheap shipping rates ...so I only add on about $20AUD shipping to that ! ( $14USD!!) ...
So now I have FOUR Wittrock Locos 
( dunno what it is but I like them for some reason anyway lol )
#4
I really gotta stop buying them LOL! ... I could possibly be accused of "Cultural Misappropriation" by exporting all known Wittrock out of Denmark ! 
" Tak Danmark for alle dine tog "
A new piece for the collection, a PO steeple cab loco made by LR in France, it dates from 1935 and is equipped with an auto reverse mec. It certainly is one of the most easy to find LR model but this configuration is scarce, generally it has a manual reverse lever. Also has the original box, with packaging to protect. The loco is not a representation of a real model except eventually an industrial switcher ans has been very popular in his time. With it came a nice SHELL tank car from the same year, the tank is wood.
Have a nice weekend, Daniel
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My latest acquisition is from a German maker who has always been relatively low on the status list. Heinrich Wimmer (HWN) actually dates back to the late 19th century along with Kibri, Cabo, Bing, and Marklin. HWN is usually associated with low priced trains and accessories. Lithography was their specialty. HWN made a very interesting station in the 1950s for what seems to have been the USA market. The station is decorated with USA advertising signs. I think it is charming and fits right on to my Biller small layout.
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@FRENCHTRAINS posted:
I love the straw packing.
@FRENCHTRAINS : Daniel : What a great find. I am not familiar with the make LR in France but that is a handsome Steeple Cab. In the US our most famous Steeple Cab is the NYC "S" class that operated in the Grand Central tunnels for decades moving passenger cars. I am afraid my only French electric engine is a little (French) Hornby SNCF electric that I believe I have posted before. Here it is pulling its little train of (French) Hornby Pullman's and a Dinning Car.
Lewrail - really liked the HWN station. I have few HWN train cars but none of their accessories.
Fatman - great tank car...I have not seen the PionerExpressen red Esso, but you should know there is also a green BP and yellow Shell for you to hunt down (LOL). My PionerExpressen "collection" is one small passenger coach and one "Kole Vogon" . Plus, you identified another manufacturer I had not seen before Wittrock...I looked them up on the internet and your engine is clearly illustrated (Binns Road).
Fatman, thank you for your comment on our AF semaphore discussion. I tell you that I love this thread as I continuously learn things from the other members on the forum. I said yesterday that when I got them "installed" on the layout I would post some pictures. So here they are: the one on the left is protecting the approach from the tunnel exit to the outer platform of the suburban station , the one on the right is protecting the long "raceway" on the main line leaving the terminal station in the background. Right now the Rock Island E-7 has the main in front of the station and its train is still on the track behind the station waiting for "switcher Saturday" loco to move those cars and couple up to the train.
This is all imagination of course, including any idea that I know more than a very tiny amount about how signals on real RR work. I just think the vintage AF examples here look good and are in line with my early "hobby shop" theme.
Don
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A little late to the party; here are a few of the semaphores in my collection.
And a factory error, probably a Monday morning piece.
Semaphores used on Flyer trackside accessories.
and one from Hafner for good measure.
I think there are a few more still packed away.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
