Yes, Bluecomet400, about 2 years ago, after having a great experience with DCS, I tried to install TMCC using the same devices you describe so I could operate TMCC locomotives using my DCS handheld remote.  I got advice from a couple of people I met on the Forum and from Barry's Bible on DCS.

The end result was my TMCC locos failed to run smoothly on my layout in command mode. They would run a couple of feet, then either stop or slow down.

I ended up trading a couple of my TMCC locos to a local train guy friend, and getting back a couple of MTH PS 2 or 3. I still have 1 or 2 more TMCC locos that I run conventionally. Arnold

Blue, is the wall wart that came with the Command base plugged into a plug strip or directly into a wall outlet. Some plug strips  with surge suppression can kill the TMCC signal.

Pete

Are all of the outside rails connected on your layout?  How is the U post on the TMCC command base connected to your layout?

In an effort to keep things simple, I don't run my TMCC through the TIU, which means that I have to use the TMCC remote for the Lionel engines (it's not for everybody, but I don't mind).  I'm able to run engines with DCS and TMCC simultaneously on the same track.

Hopefully, it's just a ground issue as @Norton mentioned above.  If that doesn't fix the problem, next step would be to hook the TMCC up directly and do a function test - you could have a bad component.

Re the unresponsive locos, did you buy them new?  If not, a previous owner might have programmed them to a number that you don't know. 

Just to add to other ideas above. TMCC is a rather old system at this point.

I assume this is a used command set? If so, its possible it had issues before you aquired it.

@BlueComet400 posted:

This is my first go-around with TMCC, which I had always heard was "easier" than DCS with its single wire connection to the outside rail. I've had DCS for about 5 years, and after working out a few bugs, it has worked extremely well.

With 6 TMCC-equipped locos, I have now added TMCC using the command base and cable connecting it to my TIU. So far, I have been able to successfully add and operate only 2 locos. The other 4 are unresponsive. I've followed the same steps with each loco, but no luck on 4 of them. I also have a TMCC remote, and have not had any success with it. Nothing works with it. The red light on the base flashes when I push buttons, but locos don't respond.

This surprises me because DCS is much more complex with respect to connections, but yet I've had much better luck with it than TMCC.

Has anyone else had this experience with the 2 command systems?

Yes, and No.  Mostly No.

Out of the box and brand new there are few issues.  Even old stuff usually has few issues.

You are apparently one of the unlucky ones.

Since you haven't indicated specifically what your problems are, other than "it doesn't work", everything can presently only be pure speculation on our part.

Start with a length of track on a bench and your command system, whether CAB-1/Base-1, Cab1-L/Base-1L or Cab-2/Base-2, and fire up your engines one at a time, beginning with your 'good' ones.  Do not try to run any of your engines from the MTH handheld until you've sorted things out with a Lionel command set on its own.

There's some playing and learning needed with TMCC by itself here in order to proceed before throwing the MTH stuff into the equation.

I think that in the end that you'll find that you have just one or two simple problems to deal with, none of which are major.

Mike

When you are entering the engines into the DCS remote. The remote will ask you to enter it’s TMCC I.D. number. What are you entering for a number seeing this is all new to you ?   Most engines bought used have had their number changed. Some sellers will let you know.  If unknown you  start with 1 and if it’s a no go. Some version of the cab number. The default from the factory is 1. If still no response. I’d give the engine a new I.D. .
Seeing you have a Cab 1 remote. I’d leave the DCS out of the equation for now. I’d place the engine in Program mode and assign it a new number. A whistle blow or horn at the end of the sequence will verify the change. Slide it back to Run and it should be good to go.

Entering the info into the DCS remote is pretty straight forward. You don’t even need to have the layout on. You have to enter the TMCC number you just gave to the engine. The only other thing is if you are running Super TIU. it will ask you which TIU the connecting base cable is plugged into.

The strange thing is 2 of my locos were added without any issues and run very well. The command base is plugged directly into the wall. I go through the steps on the DCS remote, and the locos show up as they should, but then are pretty much unresponsive to any commands. I say "pretty much" because one of them will at least start making steam sounds when I fire it up, but it won't move. As for the TMCC ID number, I have no idea what the number would be, even on the 2 locos that are working as they should. When I added them, I assigned them an address number on the DCS remote; is that the same thing as a TMCC ID?

Thanks guys!

John

@BlueComet400 posted:

As for the TMCC ID number, I have no idea what the number would be, even on the 2 locos that are working as they should. When I added them, I assigned them an address number on the DCS remote; is that the same thing as a TMCC ID?

Thanks guys!

John

TMCC/Legacy locos typically come pre programmed with a single digit generic i.d.#  from the factory. Most folks reprogram them with an i.d.# of their own. Usually one uses the first two, or last two digits of the cab#.  The engines respond to this i.d.#.

There is a run/program switch on the bottom of each engine.

1. Slide switch to PGM. Place the locomotive on the track. Power up the track

2. Enter an i.d.# of your choice i.e. if cab number is 1218, push ENG on the remote, then 18, then SET ( set is under the removable plate on the bottom front of the cab1)

After set is pushed the whistle should blow indicating its programmed.

3. Remove power and then slide the RUN/PGM switch back to run. The engine will now respond when it is addressed by powering up the track and the pressing ENG 18 and any other key on the keypad.

No it’s not the same. You might have just got lucky with one of them. Maybe slot 1 was open in the remote and the TMCC I.D. may have been 1. You can re program the TMCC I.D. with the DCS remote . Seeing you have a Cab 1. I think it’s more user friendly.  The manual that came with the engine will guide you through the steps and where the Run Program switch is located on the engine. Once everything is up and running then you can add them to the DCS remote. Adding them to the DCS is pretty straight forward once you know they all work. You can take a break and do it while your having a cup of coffee or watching TV. Your basically just adding info into the remote. Layout doesn’t have to be powered and nothing needs to be done with the engine.

With regard to the ground issue.  How old is your house and the wiring?  Some older homes (say prior to 1970 or 1980 or so) have outlets that do not have or have suboptimal earth grounding, and would not, for example meet current electrical codes for new construction in this regard. Harder problem to solve, but can be problematic for TMCC, which relies upon a solid earth ground to have effective radio frequency communication from command base to locomotives.  When almost nothing is working, this is sometimes the issue, because signal propagation is weak.

Another issue with TMCC equipment being up to 25 years old,  is that some sets develop dysfunctional signal propagation due to cab-1s that are off frequency.  I vaguely recall it as a crystal problem, but may be misremembering. No personal experience and not common.  Not an easy problem to trouble shoot, unfortunately.

For both issues, if you can test your cab-1 and command base in a home or club with known functional grounding, that would be ideal. I seem to recall that the NJ HiRailers had big TMCC problems originally, and that one possible explanation was operating in a century old building with ancient wiring.  My apologies if I've got that wrong. 

To say this is not the normal situation is not putting too fine a point on it.  For the most part, unless you have a layout the size of the NJ-HR 185 x 30 foot monster, TMCC/Legacy usually works out of the with the single wire hookup.

I think much of the issue here is attempting to use the DCS remote to run the TMCC/Legacy locomotives.  While this certainly works, it's not as dirt simple as using the Lionel remotes to control them.

If you have the original TMCC command system, one issue is the base can get "out of tune" and that greatly reduces the sensitivity of all TMCC/Legacy locomotives.  The newer "Legacy-Lite" blue base and remote or the full Legacy #990 system don't have this issue.  It is possible to "tune" the old TMCC Command base, but it does require disassembly.

As Dave suggested, since you have a Cab1, forget the TIU and MTH Handheld.

just hook the command base to the track and reprogram all your engines and see if they run that way. If they run with just TMCC they should run with your DCS systems. You have too many variables now.

Pete

Please update your situation...very interested.  Thank you.

Sounds like some of the TMCC engines have had their ID changed from the default "1". You should check that before you attempt to troubleshoot anything else. The base is getting commands from the remote, but unless you have addressed the correct engine ID, nothing more will happen. RickO's instructions above should get them up and running.

@BlueComet400:

I hope you can work out the bugs with your complicated command control system. I know gunrunnerjohn runs both TMCC/Legacy and DCS on his massive layout. But he's a Navy-trained electronics expert.

When I switched from conventional to command control, I chose only TMCC/Legacy with Lionel's newer Base 1L and a couple of Cab 1Ls. So, I have only Lionel TMCC and Legacy engines. But I'm fine with that and I've never had any problems with Lionel's command control system, going on 6 years now.

Well, this is way more complex than I gave it credit for; all I have heard about TMCC is "one wire and you're done." It sounds like I'm just getting started here, and that my biggest mistake was attempting to add them to my DCS first before programming them with TMCC first. And it sounds like it really was just luck that I got 2 locos to work (Lionel Hudson 6-31705 with TMCC and a Williams Pacific converted to TMCC by Gunrunnerjohn). These 2 locos work flawlessly using the DCS remote. I'll try it again tonight with just the TMCC system and see if I can get anything to respond.

Thanks for all the tips/feedback.

Remember John, you need to program the TMCC ID's, typically they come from the factory (or from most upgraders) as TMCC #1.

@BlueComet400 posted:

Well, this is way more complex than I gave it credit for; all I have heard about TMCC is "one wire and you're done." It sounds like I'm just getting started here, and that my biggest mistake was attempting to add them to my DCS first before programming them with TMCC first. And it sounds like it really was just luck that I got 2 locos to work (Lionel Hudson 6-31705 with TMCC and a Williams Pacific converted to TMCC by Gunrunnerjohn). These 2 locos work flawlessly using the DCS remote. I'll try it again tonight with just the TMCC system and see if I can get anything to respond.

Thanks for all the tips/feedback.

If you received a manual with any of your Lionel engines they will tell you how to reprogram them. They all work essentially the same. The learning curve is actually much shorter than it is with DCS though neither is that difficult. By comparison DCC has many hundreds of CVs you can reprogram.

Pete

@BlueComet400 posted:

Well, this is way more complex than I gave it credit for; all I have heard about TMCC is "one wire and you're done." It sounds like I'm just getting started here, and that my biggest mistake was attempting to add them to my DCS first before programming them with TMCC first. And it sounds like it really was just luck that I got 2 locos to work (Lionel Hudson 6-31705 with TMCC and a Williams Pacific converted to TMCC by Gunrunnerjohn). These 2 locos work flawlessly using the DCS remote. I'll try it again tonight with just the TMCC system and see if I can get anything to respond.

Thanks for all the tips/feedback.

It really is "one wire and you're done", but that's a bit like saying to plug your TIU inline between the transformer and the track and DCS is good to go.  Overall though, TMCC is much simpler.  Trust me - I'm a simpleton.

@Norton posted:

If you received a manual with any of your Lionel engines they will tell you how to reprogram them. They all work essentially the same. The learning curve is actually much shorter than it is with DCS though neither is that difficult. By comparison DCC has many hundreds of CVs you can reprogram.

Hopefully, there was also a manual with your TMCC set.  And don't get me started about the capabilities and universal application of DCC...

@BlueComet400 posted:

And it sounds like it really was just luck that I got 2 locos to work (Lionel Hudson 6-31705 with TMCC and a Williams Pacific converted to TMCC by Gunrunnerjohn). These 2 locos work flawlessly using the DCS remote. I'll try it again tonight with just the TMCC system and see if I can get anything to respond.

Thanks for all the tips/feedback.

Dcs mimics the commands of the cab1 handheld to the TMCC base. DCS does NOT actually run Lionel engines by itself, in which case the marketing over the years has lead to that false impression.

TMCC/ Legacy engines have always required an i.d.# to operate.  So those two engines that your using  must have i.d.#s that your aware of and yourTMCC base is at least functional.

Giving the engines an i.d.# following the instructions above is really very simple. Your finding it intimidating because you simply aren't familiar with it.

If your operating TMCC engines with the DCS handheld, and those same engines don't respond to the cab 1 handheld there is an issue with your cab1 handheld. Again, a 20 year old remote could have an issue, especially if it was used.

I'm sure there are faulty early REV  DCS TIUs and remotes out there that would make a potential newbie to DCS feel the system is flawed

It is actually is that simple, but there's something else at work here.

TMCC vs DCS is like Mac vs Windows.  If you've learned one and you're trying to learn the other, the other has enough things that are done slightly differently that you'll trip all over the place while trying to get off the ground.

Now take the next step.  It's true that you can run Windows (via an emulator) on a Mac, but would you dash out and buy a brand new Mac, never having used one before, and attempt to load your Windows applications on it immediately without first learning how to use a Mac in enough detail?  Probably not, although there are people who do this all the time, and then throw up their hands in despair.

That's what's happening here.

Mike

My experience with the original TMCC in 1996 was underwhelming.  The CAB-1's red knob and its use of relative speed steps made for a vague control experience.  I also had issues with locos' lights flickering, stopping on the track, etc.  Some of this could have been due to power strip(s) interfering with the ground signal.  But there should always have been a user-settable option to let the loco keep going at the previous direction and speed, in the event of signal loss.

A few years later circa 2002 I found DCS to be much more precise in a small "home layout" environment, especially when the remote was tethered to the TIU with a phone cord.  Unfortunately only one remote can be tethered a time.  Promising attempts to control DCS with a PC were quashed by MTH's aggressive legal action.  Our club could never get DCS to work reliably on our buss-wired modular layout.  Even at home, multi-operator sessions were a circus, partly due to user inexperience.  (How many pages is Barry's book again?)  I never liked the ergonomics of the thumbwheel and its "push-to-enter" functionality.  Deeper ridges and a separate "enter" button should have been added years ago.  Years later, Susan Deats and some other brilliant minds did MTH a huge favor by coming up with filters and other ways to make signal propagation more reliable, but on balance I would say that Lionel's technology is more robust in electrically dirty real-world environments.

Fast-forward to 2007.  The Legacy base and CAB-2 ran my Legacy locos great from day one.  The back-driveable gears were great, no more Odyssey lurch!  The CAB-2  even ran TMCC locos better than ever before.  Legacy was everything that TMCC promised to be, and most of what I bought--until Lionel discontinued it!  If  you can scrape together $900 maybe you can share in the joy.  Otherwise I would convert your "problem children" to a direct R/C system like RailPro.   It's definitely doable.  I would think that ANY of the direct R/C technologies would work great on the NJHR layout, as long as you're willing to move a little along with your train.  My $.02.

You got this John. We're here for ya!

@Ted S posted:

Otherwise I would convert your "problem children" to a direct R/C system like RailPro.   It's definitely doable.  I would think that ANY of the direct R/C technologies would work great on the NJHR layout, as long as you're willing to move a little along with your train.  My $.02.

I'm guessing you haven't tried to run a LC+ or anything with Bluetooth on a layout like the NH-HR, I have.  It's a royal PITA to run either BT or LC+ on the NJ-HR layout.  My engines kept running out of signal range, usually under a tunnel, and I'd have to have someone go under and fetch them for me!  OTOH, my Legacy stuff ran flawlessly around the whole layout, and I could run if from anywhere around the layout.  Without some serious work on range, LC+ or the current available Bluetooth products are junk IMO!

The Base 3 is supposed to come with a higher Bluetooth class for more range. Bluetooth itself is capable of much higher range though not sure of the limitations the FCC may place on these products.

Pete

"You got this John. We're here for ya! "

Thanks Joe! I still have those cars I bought from you.

@Ted S posted:

Legacy was everything that TMCC promised to be, and most of what I bought--until Lionel discontinued it!

When did they discontinue Legacy?  Are we missing something here?

Mike

@Norton posted:

The Base 3 is supposed to come with a higher Bluetooth class for more range. Bluetooth itself is capable of much higher range though not sure of the limitations the FCC may place on these products.

True Pete, but all the existing locomotives we have are the short range class of BT.  The longer range protocol has to be on both ends, so all we have to do is buy all new equipment for that to be the solution!  BT 4 that's in all the current trains we own has a quoted range of 33 feet, and my experience is that's a stretch, even with line of sight.  My Galaxy S21 5G has Bluetooth 5.0, but it can't keep connected to any of the BlueTooth equipped locomotives I have end to end on my 24 foot long layout!  That includes both steamers and diesels.  The single exception to this behavior is the ES44AC that came with the just delivered UP Rocket Train, it obviously has the longer range BT capability as I could go outside and still run the train, so that was at least 40 feet away.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm guessing you haven't tried to run a LC+ or anything with Bluetooth on a layout like the NH-HR, I have.  It's a royal PITA to run either BT or LC+ on the NJ-HR layout.  My engines kept running out of signal range, usually under a tunnel, and I'd have to have someone go under and fetch them for me!  OTOH, my Legacy stuff ran flawlessly around the whole layout, and I could run if from anywhere around the layout.  Without some serious work on range, LC+ or the current available Bluetooth products are junk IMO!

Ring Engineering's RailPro and the similar AirWire (by CVP Products) don't rely on Bluetooth.  They were originally developed for "dead rail" outdoor garden railway applications, so I'm pretty sure range won't be a problem.  I'm also pretty sure you can set the decoder to keep the loco going if it loses the signal.  The rub is that you must add a rectifier, capacitor, voltage regulator, etc., between the track and the decoder to "trick" the decoder into thinking that it's being fed pure DC from a battery.  There should be more than enough room for this helper circuit in a loco tender, or any of our 3-rail "stegosaurus" diesels, between those two walnut-sized motors.

Ring Engineering and CVP both offer physical hand-helds which are available as of this writing at a modest cost.  The end result is a loco that should operate in pretty much any 3-rail environment.

Some of you folks need to slow your roll. He's (the OP) looking to get SIX of his engines working with TMCC, and already has 2 of them doing so. Suggesting he rip out all the electronics and replace them with some other system is ridiculous, especially when it's probably something as simple as setting an engine ID that's needed to get them working.

TMCC / Legacy has worked well on the G&O garden railroad.  The club hasn't had any luck with MTH DCS.  The layout is controlled with one Legacy command base.  Instead of connecting the Legacy base to the track, we connect it directly to the ground on our MTH Z-4000 transformer.  This works well.  I operate my home layout the same way.  

Club members often buy a new Lionel command control engine, put on the track and find that it won't respond to the Legacy cab.  I always ask them what is the engine's ID?  Most people don't know.  The first step to fix the problem is to reprogram the engine to a two digit number as described above.  Use a 2 digit number because Lionel uses the numbers 1 thru 9 for consists.  I usually select the last two digits of the engine number as the ID number.  This fixes the issue 90% of the time.

If the engine still doesn't run, the next step is to clean the pickup rollers and wheels and if needed the track.  This is true of even brand new locomotives.  I have seen engines that won't respond run fine after their wheels and rollers are cleaned.  Wheels and rollers that look clean can still be dirty in my experience.   This usually solves the problem.  

Yesterday I was running an Atlas TMCC locomotive just fine on my home layout.  One of my Lionel TMCC locomotives would move a few inches and stop.  I cleaned the Lionel engine's rollers and wheels.  I had the Atlas engine push a track cleaning car around the layout.  The Lionel engine ran fine after I finished cleaning it and the track.  

I hope that this helps.  NH Joe

@Magicland posted:

Some of you folks need to slow your roll. He's (the OP) looking to get SIX of his engines working with TMCC, and already has 2 of them doing so. Suggesting he rip out all the electronics and replace them with some other system is ridiculous, especially when it's probably something as simple as setting an engine ID that's needed to get them working.

BINGO!

@New Haven Joe posted:

The first step to fix the problem is to reprogram the engine to a two digit number as described above.  Use a 2 digit number because Lionel uses the numbers 1 thru 9 for consists.  I usually select the last two digits of the engine number as the ID number.  This fixes the issue 90% of the time.

Actually, only TMCC uses the single digit lash-up, and it is not a problem if a TMCC ID is the same as the lash-up ID.  Legacy allows lash-ups from 01 to 99, and obviously TMCC #'s the same range.

Not an expert on TMCC or DCS, but I agree with what others have said, when debugging it is always best to go back to the direct approach I have always found.By resetting the engines using the TMCC controls/base, it will show if the engine itself is good, if you reprogram it and it works with TMCC, then you are fine. I doubt it is the house wiring, when you use a DCS unit to control a tmcc engine, what you are doing is controlling the TMCC base, it issues it's signals via the ground in the house. If two engines work via DCS to TMCC, then the wiring in the house is fine. Likewise if it was a ground problem, none of the engines would work IMO.

Reprogram the 4 engines that don't work, give them new ids, try using the tmcc remote with the base, and if they work, pretty sure the DCS setup will work fine, too.

IF the DCS setup works for one engine, it'll work for all of them if they're programmed correctly and in working condition.

@BlueComet400 posted:

This is my first go-around with TMCC, which I had always heard was "easier" than DCS with its single wire connection to the outside rail. I've had DCS for about 5 years, and after working out a few bugs, it has worked extremely well.

With 6 TMCC-equipped locos, I have now added TMCC using the command base and cable connecting it to my TIU. So far, I have been able to successfully add and operate only 2 locos. The other 4 are unresponsive. I've followed the same steps with each loco, but no luck on 4 of them. I also have a TMCC remote, and have not had any success with it. Nothing works with it. The red light on the base flashes when I push buttons, but locos don't respond.

This surprises me because DCS is much more complex with respect to connections, but yet I've had much better luck with it than TMCC.

Has anyone else had this experience with the 2 command systems?

The shame of all of this is that we even have two systems. That said, I run both and while the DCS might do some more things. The TMCC system is by far the easier of the two and I have found much more reliable and less prone to signal issues. I st love one wire and away you go, also the fact the the control unit is not in line with track power protects the TMCC control/transmitter from a short.

in the end it's what makes you confortable.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, only TMCC uses the single digit lash-up, and it is not a problem if a TMCC ID is the same as the lash-up ID.  Legacy allows lash-ups from 01 to 99, and obviously TMCC #'s the same range.

Thank you for the information about the Legacy lash-up.  I didn't know that.  I still prefer to reserve numbers 1 - 9 for consists.  NH Joe

@RickO posted:

TMCC/Legacy locos typically come pre programmed with a single digit generic i.d.#  from the factory. Most folks reprogram them with an i.d.# of their own. Usually one uses the first two, or last two digits of the cab#.  The engines respond to this i.d.#.

There is a run/program switch on the bottom of each engine.

1. Slide switch to PGM. Place the locomotive on the track. Power up the track

2. Enter an i.d.# of your choice i.e. if cab number is 1218, push ENG on the remote, then 18, then SET ( set is under the removable plate on the bottom front of the cab1)

After set is pushed the whistle should blow indicating its programmed.

3. Remove power and then slide the RUN/PGM switch back to run. The engine will now respond when it is addressed by powering up the track and the pressing ENG 18 and any other key on the keypad.

Ok guys, big improvement from last night. I tried the cab 1 remote again, and this time it worked. I didn't do anything differently than last night when I tried it and got nowhere, and. I can't explain it. The 2 locos that worked last night with the DCS remote also now work with the cab 1 as of tonight.

I was also able to add and run my other 4 locos, although 3 of them have no sound other than bell and whistle. I'm not sure what's up with that, but it's a huge improvement over last night.

The thing that seemed to make the difference is RickO's instructions.  Page 6 of my TMCC manual says to keep the program/run switch set to "run" and doesn't say anything about the "set" button when loading engines into the remote. Those 2 steps made the difference tonight.

Thanks everyone for the tips. I still have a lot to learn, but tonight was a big step forward.