Traction Tire Alternatives

had a friend do just that thing!!!

he was double heading two 6

axle units, both powered. for some reason

the 2nd unit quit running, but the lead unit

was powerful enough to pull the entire train.

he was at a train show and pulled that 2nd unit

around for an entire afternoon. traction tires were

distroyed and the metel wheels were flatend

on one side.

Interesting you should ask.  I just threw a silicone rubber tire this morning!  It lasted 2 years 7 1/2 months.  I know this because I was running my Hudson J1e at a train meet on 3/27/10 when it threw its rubber tire.  When I got it home, I replaced both tires with silicone rubber sealant (not caulk).  I didn't keep track of the total hours run, but this is my most used engine.

 

What strains tires most certainly is 1. the tightness of the radius on curves, and 2. the weight of the train being pulled.  This engine was on my passenger main turning through an O72 curve and pulling a 25 car freight which extended around three more curves.  The silicone tire on the inside (tightest) curve broke. The outside tire is still intact, but I will replace them both.

 

Also of interest:  I restarted the engine to move it forward to a place I could reach it better to lift it off. Without the tire on the wheel slipped and would not pull the train.

.....

Dennis

I was strangely surprised and aghast when the subject of solid state electronic anti-wheel slip came up as an alternative to rubber bands and goo. More hermetically sealed black boxes that require an esoteric degree in physics. Brilliant.

Egads..how complex can we make simple toys that have the potential to crash like a computer..I can envision the title of a post now..."My Anti- Wheel Slip Stopped Working" Well, it's a simple fix , the chip requires a reset of the  quantum TZV control unit that feeds the signal carrier for fiber optic cable. It's on page 105 of your manual...I'll take a pass.. on the exponential cubing of a simple issue. 

Dont like computers and electronics??????

check out this youtube video on

Ron James, comedien from Canada.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjyrp6lYI2I&feature=endscreen&NR=1&safety_mode=true&persist_safety_mode=1&safe=active

It's not that complicated.  The circuit a saw had just a few common components.  It could be used downstream from a TMCC or DCS controlled, as well as conventional, set of motors.

 

A mechanical solution, such as a mid-mounted miniature Torsen differential, would be exponentially more complex.

It doesn't necessarily work either. It's pretty hard to evaluate "a few common components" that could be connected somewhere. 

 

Fantasy is great, but without some hard facts, it's impossible to know if this is just some half-baked idea or something practical.  Did you actually see it work?

 

As far as a Torsen differential, I don't recall anyone suggesting a mechanical solution.

It was Dale Manquen's circuit, I believe.  I didn't build it as I don't need it.

 

As opposed to a "hermetically sealed black box that requires an esoteric degree in physics", a mechanical differential is very simple, and transparent in it's operation.  The electronic circuit is even simpler.

Thats what makes this Hobby so special.

If there is a need, there is always somebody

that can help. The range of intelligents, ideas

and knowledge just boggles the mind.

(no pun intended).

Keep the juices flowing and eat lots O turkey!!

Yeah, I'm late to the party again...

 

But! I just got a fairly nice price on a MTH Gauge 1 NYC J3a Hudson. I don't have an inch

of #1 gauge (sometimes called "G-gauge") track, and I bought it for display only. This

completes my collection of NYC Hudsons in common scales - except for an N version...

 

Anyway - it weights 15 lbs, which is not much more than some big O steamers, yet it

has no traction tires. I've seen one of these run, and it certainly had no problem with wheel spin. My Lionel J3a weighs about 7 lbs without tender, I think, which should be plenty, proportionately.

 

So...why do we O-types need traction tires, really? Unrealistic expectations (and umpteen percent grades), could it be? 

Perhaps Dale can chime in and spread the knowledge.

Nice, but Magna-Traction's strong point is not so much about "pulling power" as Lionel hyped it to be but more about lessening the probability of the locomotive hurling off  sharp corners at higher speeds.

This thread has really been hi-jacked into fantasy land.

.....

Dennis

Dennis,

Please send me your recipe for silicone tires. I'm at modela1931@demtree.com

Best regards.

Perhaps we'll see operating sand pipes in future locomotives. Powered by miniature fans and supplied by reservoirs filled with super-fine Mega-grip sand. Then we could do away with traction tyres altogether.  

If the system really worked a soft iron strip could be stuck (is that still a word?) on the side of non-magnetic track. One rail on the flats, two on hills.

If you do a bit of experimentation with magnets, you'll discover that the attraction falls in relation to the square of the distance.  Without the wheels being in direct contact with the magnetic material, you'd have to have some mighty powerful magnets to make any difference, far more than is practical. 

GRJ

 

Smart electro-magnetic traction (SEMT ?) sensing the difference in RPM between a powered and non-powered wheel would not only be technologically complicated but would be totally reactive, activating only after wheel slip occurred.  

 

Activation based on sensing pulse count ramp-up off the optical tape would be easy and would also be proactive, activating during start-up. Which, of course, is when most wheel slip occurs.

The complexities of actually determining wheel slip by observing the ramp-up would be significant, and incidentally, also only reacts only after wheel slip occurs, think about it.

 

The reason that automotive traction control systems measure powered and non-powered wheels as a rule is it's the easiest way to do the job.

 

 I doubt any of these methods are going to be employed anytime soon for model trains.

How about a traction tire that was made like shrink tubing for wires. You put it around the wheel then heat up with a heat source then it shrinks and grips the wheel. 

Almost like the real thing.

 

franktrain

I like the heat-shrink traction tire, sounds like a business opportunity!

Perhaps we'll see operating sand pipes in future locomotives. Powered by miniature fans and supplied by reservoirs filled with super-fine Mega-grip sand. Then we could do away with traction tyres altogether. 

 

I think the Blond from across the pond has the best answer to the traction tire problem. BF

The idea of heat shrink tires sounds good, but it's still a rubber tire. You could also put only one rubber tire per axle and that would stop the tire slippage when going around curves. I like steel tires because they do slip and most diesels have two motors and they wont be perfectly matched. Also when you create a locomotive consist of several power units that little bit of slippage smooths everything out. How about a snap ring type of metal tire to replace the rubber tires? Now that I only use metal wheels I don't have any more black stuff coming off the track. And I still use smoke fluid. Those that do use rubber tires, only using the proper new tire carefully installed is a good practice. Metal wheels work for me but probably not for everyone.

Traction tires are so easy to install, don't know why I would want an alternative. 

Hi Folks,  

 

I have always had problems with traction tires coming off and I find it very frustrating.  My layout and my club's layout uses Atlas track.  Atlas track seems to quickly destroy tires.  My friends, who use track with a rounded top such as Gargraves, seem to have far fewer tire problems.

 

I have used silicone sealant with some success.  The problem with the sealant is that it I can't always get it level when I apply it.  This problem is probably a function of my lack of skill.  This causes the engine to wobble.  The silicone sealant holds up better on the Atlas track but it does eventually come off.

 

I have a Lionel PRR T-1.  This model was the subject of another tread because the blind drivers on this model are too wide and short on switches.  I tried to fix the shorting problem by coating the blind drivers with liquid electrical tape.  This fix failed.  I eventually fixed the shorting problem by grinding down the inside of the blind drivers as suggested by another forum member.

 

I decided to remove the liquid electrical tape from the drivers after I had fixed the shorting problem.  I took a wire wheel and tried to remove it.  I didn't want to grind the wheel.

 

The electrical tape wouldn't come off easily.  It was very difficult to get even a small amount off the driver.  I decided it wasn't worth trying to remove all the tape because I might damage the wheels.

 

I suddenly had the idea that if I couldn't get this tape off using a Dremel with a wire wheel, then perhaps I could use the tape as a traction tire.

 

I have used liquid electrical tape on two diesels with success.  The liquid electrical tape flows on smoothly and is self leveling.  I use a small paint brush to apply it and let it dry overnight.

 

One of the best things about liquid electrical tape is that it is available at any hardware store and it is cheap compared to Bullfrog.  It comes in several colors.  I use black.  

 

I haven't run these engines enough to get a long term review of how it will last.  So far, so good.

 

Joe

 

 

 

 

 

Silicone sealant begins to set up rather quickly.  So the secret is to smooth on a small amount for only two or three revolutions of the wheel while it is turning slowly, then quit and let it dry overnight.

 

As I mentioned above, I am currently working on my Hudson.  Only one wheel failed and the other one still looked good.  I decided to replace both anyway.  I had a heck of a time getting the good one off until I softened it witih denatured alcohol.

 

I am taking some pictures as I work on it so if they turn out all right, I'll post them.

 

Joe, I like your idea of liquid electrical tape. I would like to give it a try the next time a wheel needs a tire.

.....

Dennis

I just double head.  ('Course, this usualy means 2 K-lionel Porters.  Which don't have traction tires)

Dennis - I would like to see the pictures when you get them.  I'm always looking for a better technique here; I do the best I can but I often suspect I'm missing something as to technique.  

 

Thanks, 

 

leL

OK, Lee.  My work was interupted by Thanksgiving dinner, three football games, and helping around the house decorating for the holidays.  Now my wife wants me to take her to a movie. 

.....

Dennis

In the years we've run over a dozen locomotives we've only thrown two traction tires that we know about.

One time we found a broken tire between the tracks and to this day don't know which locomotive threw it!

Kerrigan,

 

So you haven't had any engines off the track to take a look?

.....

Dennis

Hard as this may be to believe, but I was WRONG. I stated somewhere recently that the

MTH #1 Gauge Hudson had no traction tires ("...so why do we...?"). Ooops.

My #1 Gauge MTH for-display-only (or is it...?) J3a came today...and it has two traction

tires. Guess I just looked at the photo under the influence of something or other.

So, the tire curse continues.

 

"Gauge 1" boxes are REALLY big. Nice - plastic - 4-6-4. I put my Lionel J3a beside the new

beast. Never thought it would look small. Or feel light. Must get some track. And so it

begins.

This sounds a lot different from your original post where I thought your intent was to say the tires don't come off very much.

.....

Dennis

Do the MTH scale wheel locomotives have traction tires?

...keep the rails polished...

I think this sketch sums the causes of traction tire failures. Let me know if I missed any.

 

MTH scale wheels engines do not have traction tires. Running those in multiple unit consists is my happy alternative to traction tires. As for speed control, not only is it not traction-tire dependent, my sense is that it works better without them, at least with multiple diesels. RM

Bobby, I think you got them all.

 

Today I put new silicone tires on my Hudson and photographed the removal of the old, and videoed putting on the new.  Before posting them, I will wait until I inspect the wheels more closely after they dry because I found my silicone, being quite old, had lost a lot of viscosity in the tube.  I used it anyway, softening it with denatured alcohol as I applied it.  The video became quite long as I fiddled with it.

.....

Dennis

I agree with you Rich