Union Pacific has released another update in community ties covering the rebuild of the 844

superwarp1 posted:

Side question or questions.  How many workers does Ed have under him right now compared to what Steve had?

Can't remember for sure, but probably double now.

 Plus how many combined years of experience did the former crew vs the current crew have/had?

None, ZERO, when it comes to actual boiler and machinery overhaul work. Then again, I'm not so sure that any of the current crew even know how to run and fire a big 4-8-4.

 Also are there any outside contractors doing work on 844 right now?

Absolutely NOT!!!!   There is no way that the current manager would EVER allow anyone that really knows steam locomotive maintenance and overhaul inside that shop!

I know the answers to my questions might not be public knowledge but I figured Hot Water would have some insight.

smd4 posted:

Hot Water posted:

The bigger question is, as I stated above, why didn't the flue/tube supplier make the ends to the CORRECT size?

 

Thanks Hot. I think this answers my question: The tube supplier should have made the diameter smaller upon manufacture.

Yes, I can see this being a major screw-up on someone's part.

An honest request for clarification:

Are we to conclude, based on what was presented, that the flue/tube parts were manufactured to the correct diameter along the full length, but one end of each was not reduced to the required diameter to properly fit the rear flue sheet?   Regardless of who is responsible for the mistake, the tubes are not larger than they should be, it's just that one end of each should have been smaller?

Thanks

Given the reputation of the 261 group, and the fact that their steamer is back up and running, my money is on Ed or his people not giving them the proper information. As has been said, 261 gets the right parts, 4449 gets the right parts, 611 gets the right parts, and recently 765 has gotten the right parts.  What do all of those engines NOT have?  Ed Dickens.  Also, just to clarify my earlier comment about being at least 120 days away from steaming. The poster clarified the comments I referred to. 120 days from a successful hydro test ( which 844 is not even close too)  to steam up, not operating on the main line, and that is with a competent experienced crew doing the work.  In other words, if you think you are going to see that engine pulling a train into Frontier Days, I have a tropical resort in Bismarck North Dakota I want to sell you.

Not to worry. They'll have a diesel pusher. Just fire her up, vent some steam, and let the diesel do the work.

TM Terry posted:

Not to worry. They'll have a diesel pusher. Just fire her up and let the diesel do the work.

Well the real problem with THAT is, the "firing up" part. I'd be willing to bet that she will not even pass the first hydro test.

You will show respect, gentlemen!  That is a Professional Monkey, with a regulation football . . .

Are you willing to put money behind your predictions of eds failure.  Remember the proof is in the pudding.  It will be fun to watch all you naysayers eat crow when the 844 steams perfectly out of the back shop.  Quit listing to the so called experts that have never designed a steam locomotive in their life.  I say this as I am not an expert on metalalurgy and boiler construction.  The expert in my opinion is Doyle McCormack as he has done 4449 and the cp empress complete boiler rebuild for CP and it ran its 15 years with no boiler problems.  That is the proof in the pudding.  How many boiler problems has 4449 had?????? 

ironlake2 posted:

Are you willing to put money behind your predictions of eds failure. 

Yes.

Remember the proof is in the pudding. 

So,,,,,the "proof" that the UP has not had ANY operable steam locomotives for three years, doesn't count for anything?

It will be fun to watch all you naysayers eat crow when the 844 steams perfectly out of the back shop.  Quit listing to the so called experts that have never designed a steam locomotive in their life. 

Sorry but, "designing a steam locomotive" has NOTHING to do with proper maintenance and overhaul knowledge/experience.

I say this as I am not an expert on metalalurgy and boiler construction. 

Certainly glad that you pointed THAT out!

The expert in my opinion is Doyle McCormack as he has done 4449 and the cp empress complete boiler rebuild for CP and it ran its 15 years with no boiler problems.  That is the proof in the pudding.  How many boiler problems has 4449 had?????? 

Well, to be totally truthful, we have had an occasional "boiler issue" with 4449 over the last 41 years, however our crew knows what they are doing and any & all issues have been corrected within the prescribed rules & regulations of the FRA. Our crew knows EXACTLY what lubricants work and EXACTLY what boiler water treatment chemicals work.

Doyle L. McCormack (born circa 1943)^[1] is a railroad preservationist, and is well-known among the railfancommunity.

McCormack is a retired Union Pacific locomotive engineer who is now the president of the Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation,^[1][2][3] an organization that is leading the project to build and expand the Oregon Rail Heritage Center(ORHC), a new, permanent home for the steam locomotives owned by the City of Portland. The ORHC opened its first phase in September 2012,^[4] and the main building was named in McCormack's honor: the Doyle L. McCormack Enginehouse.

McCormack is known for his work on the restoration and operation of Southern Pacific 4449,^[2] Delaware & HudsonALCO PA 18 (preserved as Nickel Plate Road 190), as well as other noted vintage steam and diesel-electric locomotives.

He first came to Portland in 1974, from Ohio, to help restore SP 4449 to operating condition for use as the American Freedom Train during the U.S. Bicentennial celebrations in 1975–76, and he resettled in Portland in 1978.^[2]

Although mainly involved with full-size locomotives, in 1982 McCormack helped restore the Washington Park & Zoo Railway's 5/8-scale steam locomotive, No. 1, the Oregon, to operating condition by fabricating a new solid-steel frame to replace the 1959 locomotive's original frame, which had repeatedly broken.^[5]

He is probably best recognized from his cameo appearance in the 1986 film, Tough Guys, as the engineer of the steam locomotive hijacked by Archie Long (played by Kirk Douglas) and Harry Doyle (Burt Lancaster).

Click here to learn more.

Gary

What impressed me about Mr. McCormack, was that he got in and got just as dirty, if not more so, as the rest of the restoration crew. "Can't lead from behind".

ironlake2 posted:

Are you willing to put money behind your predictions of eds failure.  Remember the proof is in the pudding.  It will be fun to watch all you naysayers eat crow when the 844 steams perfectly out of the back shop.  Quit listing to the so called experts that have never designed a steam locomotive in their life. 

Steam out of the back shop?  Oh boy, yeah the question is when? 

ironlake2 posted:

Are you willing to put money behind your predictions of eds failure.  Remember the proof is in the pudding.  It will be fun to watch all you naysayers eat crow when the 844 steams perfectly out of the back shop.  Quit listing to the so called experts that have never designed a steam locomotive in their life.  I say this as I am not an expert on metalalurgy and boiler construction.  The expert in my opinion is Doyle McCormack as he has done 4449 and the cp empress complete boiler rebuild for CP and it ran its 15 years with no boiler problems.  That is the proof in the pudding.  How many boiler problems has 4449 had?????? 

Pardon me, but what does the qualifications of Doyle McCormack have to do with the lack of qualification of Ed Dickens or anybody else at the UP steam shop?  If Doyle was working on it, it probably would have run two years ago, bad sadly for us, he isn't.

Lord, I WISH Doyle was involved!

This UP team seems to have a do-it-yourself  theory. I watched a video and they made all these tools etc for, i think, stay bolts. Can you imagine restoring a WW II fighter plane or a vintage race car and using a "critical part" that was too big by squeezing it down !!??  You don't have to be an expert to know that is stupid.

Drydock posted:

Lord, I WISH Doyle was involved!

Believe me, if Doyle had been involved:

1) The side rod bearings would NEVER have been made too tight.

2) The lubricants would Never have been changed.

3) The boiler water treatment chemicals would NEVER have been changed.

4) The drivers would NEVER have been flattened.

5) the change from burning reclaimed waste oil to number 2 diesel fuel would NEVER have happened.

6) The 4014 would most likely NEVER have been removed from the Museum in California.

Both 3985 AND 844 would still be "in service" and operable at a moments notice.

jim pastorius posted:

This UP team seems to have a do-it-yourself  theory. I watched a video and they made all these tools etc for, i think, stay bolts. Can you imagine restoring a WW II fighter plane or a vintage race car and using a "critical part" that was too big by squeezing it down !!??  You don't have to be an expert to know that is stupid.

However, THAT is exactly how fire tubes & flues are worked in order to PROPERLY install them in modern day steam locomotive boilers!

Hot Water posted:

jim pastorius posted:

This UP team seems to have a do-it-yourself  theory. I watched a video and they made all these tools etc for, i think, stay bolts. Can you imagine restoring a WW II fighter plane or a vintage race car and using a "critical part" that was too big by squeezing it down !!??  You don't have to be an expert to know that is stupid.

However, THAT is exactly how fire tubes & flues are worked in order to PROPERLY install them in modern day steam locomotive boilers!

So what you're saying is that ED and company should not have had to do the swedging...that work should have been don at the manufacturer as part of the order...assuming they were provided the correct dimensions?

smd4 posted:

Hot Water posted:

jim pastorius posted:

This UP team seems to have a do-it-yourself  theory. I watched a video and they made all these tools etc for, i think, stay bolts. Can you imagine restoring a WW II fighter plane or a vintage race car and using a "critical part" that was too big by squeezing it down !!??  You don't have to be an expert to know that is stupid.

However, THAT is exactly how fire tubes & flues are worked in order to PROPERLY install them in modern day steam locomotive boilers!

So what you're saying is that ED and company should not have had to do the swedging...that work should have been don at the manufacturer as part of the order...assuming they were provided the correct dimensions?

Yes. However, the Milwaukee 261 folks are NOT happy that the current manager in Cheyenne has publicly claimed that the new flues/tubes are incorrect. 

Hot Water posted:

Yes. However, the Milwaukee 261 folks are NOT happy that the current manager in Cheyenne has publicly claimed that the new flues/tubes are incorrect. 

Yeah, no doubt!

To be frank I certainly have little or no knowledge as to how boiler steam tubes should or should not be replaced or repaired but I was just wondering why the restoration crew working on the AT&SF #2926 Northern hasn't had any major problems with their boiler tubes or any of the hundreds and hundreds of parts which go into restoring a very large and complex steam engine?

Obviously McCormack and Hot Water both have more than enough hands-on experience and knowledge to solve potential problems if asked!  Very strange indeed................

The NKP 765 mechanical crew is replacing all the tubes and flues in the 765 right now. All the tubes arrived properly sized and ready to go into the boiler. They didn't have to waste a lot of time building a one-time use tool to fix a mistake.

In other words, the all-volunteer, part-time 765 crew has accomplished more in one winter maintenance season than has been accomplished in Cheyenne in the last three years.

Rich, just wondering where the FWRHS sources their tube material from, and do you guys  own your own equipment for installing them, or is it brought in for the job?  Any idea how soon until she is under steam?  I've said it before, but if Ed wasn't so myopic, it should really bother him that his paid professional staff with a corporate budget has been getting spanked by volunteer groups from coast to coast.

Click on U.P. Living Legend Artwork to enlarge.........

Gary

trainroomgary posted:

Click on U.P. Living Legend Artwork to enlarge.........

Gary

With apologies to everyone - the 844 has actually been a "Dead Legend" for the past 3 years. Can't call it a "Living Legend" if it does not run.

In a normal world the UP Steam Team which is full time paid staff with a dedicated shop and budget should be getting things done quicker then the part time volunteer organizations that also restore, maintain and operate large steam. There is something wrong with this picture!

And in no way do I imply the volunteer organizations are not capable - the proof is in that they are accomplishing more with less resources than UP has and can show us an operable steam locomotive.

The above is only my opinion - I have no connections to the UP or any volunteer organizations that maintain/operate large steam. I'm beginning to think that the PRR T-1 Trust will have an operating locomotive (built from scratch no less!) before the 844, 4014 and/or 3985 are back under steam. Do hope I'm wrong as once upon a time the UP set the standard for an operating steam program in the USA.

For all those that think volunteers are the better alternative you may wish to check out the sage of the Western Pacific rebuild that has gone on for years. 

wb47 posted:

For all those that think volunteers are the better alternative you may wish to check out the sage of the Western Pacific rebuild that has gone on for years. 

With EXTREMELY limited funds, should be pointed out.

With new tubes, is 844 going to need the 15 year boiler test?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

With new tubes, is 844 going to need the 15 year boiler test?

No, that should have been done while all the flues/tubes were out, i.e. the ultrasound testing and re-filing the FRA Form 4. Also, the FRA Form 4 must now be amended, since the current manager cutout portions of the firebox steel and replaced those portions with different thickness steel sheets. Such "modifications" require an amendment to the FRA Form 4.

Dieselbob posted:

Rich, just wondering where the FWRHS sources their tube material from, and do you guys  own your own equipment for installing them, or is it brought in for the job?  Any idea how soon until she is under steam?  I've said it before, but if Ed wasn't so myopic, it should really bother him that his paid professional staff with a corporate budget has been getting spanked by volunteer groups from coast to coast.

I'm not on the mechanical staff so I'm not sure where the tubes were purchased. As far as "equipment" is concerned, nothing special is required. We certainly don't need a 20-foot long custom-made, one-off machine to swedge the ends of the flues! The only thing needed is a powerful air motor. We have our own flue rolling tools and the other items needed for this work.

765 will be running again this year, starting in June. We're almost ready to make a public announcement with the trip details.

With all the experts on this forum telling us what Ed is doing wrong, why aren't there more old steam engines running the rails.  I'm sure there are plenty out there to be saved.

jmiller320 posted:

With all the experts on this forum telling us what Ed is doing wrong, why aren't there more old steam engines running the rails.  I'm sure there are plenty out there to be saved.

 Huh?? What the heck does one have to do with the other?

Most of the "experts" here are actually involved with operating and maintaining steam locomotives. Sorta why we consider them experts in the first place.

Maybe a couple, but the rest are just jumping on the bandwagon.

I'm not sure trusting or believing folks that are involved in steam locomotive operation or maintenance capacities really counts as "jumping on the bandwagon." 

I just don't understand why, if you have 10 people who have decades of experience in mainline steam saying one thing--pretty much unanimously--and you have a single guy on the other side saying something different, why folks would choose to believe the one guy.

It's pretty much all about preponderance of the evidence, at this point.

jmiller320 posted:

With all the experts on this forum telling us what Ed is doing wrong, why aren't there more old steam engines running the rails.  I'm sure there are plenty out there to be saved.

 

Money. Legal issues (as in who owns the locomotive.)  Money.  Transportation costs if the locomotive is not on the property.  Staffing (volunteers or paid, both skilled and unskilled.)  Time.  Money.  Place to run the locomotive.  Tools.  Money.  Infrastructure costs.

Rusty

jmiller320 posted:

With all the experts on this forum telling us what Ed is doing wrong, why aren't there more old steam engines running the rails.  I'm sure there are plenty out there to be saved.

I know you don't like the criticism of the UP program, but I'm having a hard time connecting the subject of this thread and your post. However I can answer your question this way:

In order to restore and operate an old machine like a steam locomotive, it takes these things:

1. A suitable locomotive restoration candidate
2. A steady supply of money
3. A railroad that will allow the locomotive to run when it's all done
4. A good business plan
5. Qualified people to do the work

If you are missing any one of those items, the effort will ultimately fail.

In Union Pacific's case, they obviously have items 1, 2 and 3 taken care of. I'm not so sure about items 4 and 5.

jmiller320 posted:

With all the experts on this forum telling us what Ed is doing wrong, why aren't there more old steam engines running the rails.  I'm sure there are plenty out there to be saved.

I know you are being snarky, but there are two main reasons there aren't more steam engines running. The first is money, and there is NEVER enough of that to go around. The second issue is you have to have a place to operate it.  If you do not have "your own" railroad you are at the mercy of others.

Pretty much all of the steamers that run on "public" rails can do so mainly because the operating group has a well developed proven track record forged years ago when getting things done was far easier.  I don't know that ANY new organization would get the same level of cooperation that FWRHS, 261 or 4449 get, because it's a different world than it was back then. 

As for the insinuation about some of us " bandwagon jumpers" putting our two cents in, I would say that some us us are probably MORE qualified to work on steam engines than Ed Dickens is, because unlike him, we would actually consult and listen to those than have done it in the past and KNOW what they are doing. 

When I was 32 years old, I had a once in a lifetime chance to live a dream and work on racecars in a national touring series. (ARCA). The team owner was legendary NASCAR  driver, owner and crew chief dating back to the late 50's.  Even though I had worked as a mechanic and had been turning wrenches in various capacities for nearly twenty years,  I was the first guy to show up at the track, I volunteered for every job to be done, kept my mouth shut, my ears and eyes wide open, didn't presume I knew ANYTHING, asked a million questions, apologized for every mistake whether it was actually my fault or not, worked my butt off, and was always with the last people to leave the track.  The experience was priceless, and I had the satisfaction of knowing that in four years, the car never failed to complete a single lap because of anything I had done to it. 

For those that seems to want to Fawn over Ed Dickens, WHY? The guy's qualifications for the job are next to zero, (look them up) he won't listen to ANYBODY, and never admits a mistake.  Are you such a drooling foamer that you're willing to bet the farm on a guy that his peers won't touch with a ten foot coal shovel?

Considering the UP has two steam engines at Super. Lee's retirement, and had a pool of knowledge within the Steam Team, I have a very serious questions.  If the pool of knowledge left, is there a major cultural issues within that department of UP, or across UP as a whole?  And if steam is part of HR (????), are there "seeds of system failure" planted within the entire UP?  Is this like the the tape which self destructs in the MISSION IMPOSSIBLE TV shows?

I don't know Ed Dickens and have never met him.  The Union Pacific Railroad puts out a video letting the general public know what they have been doing to get the 844 back to running condition.  These updates are not meant to show up other steam programs, they are put out to let all the people that think they know how to do it better and those with out a clue the progress they are making.  I can see that there are a few people that were close to the steam program and are no longer involved and their feelings are hurt.  They come on here and trash talk Ed every chance they get.  There are others on here that come on and jump on the band wagon and offer their opinions on how they think Ed is not the right person for the job.  Maybe doing this makes them feel smarter about themselves.  They comment on the procedure that the Steam Shop is doing and like me they have no experience rebuilding a steam locomotive except for the you tube videos they watched.  They have nothing to base their opinion on except for what they read on this and other forums or watched on you tube.  In one of the earlier releases from the steam program Ed makes a statement that they are documenting and checking everything they are doing because the Union Pacific Railroad has decided to adopt some ISO certification.  There was a lot of work needed to bring the shop up to speed and fix and replace shop equipment.  Even that set of some of you.  I firmly believe they are fixing it for the long run and they have the luxury of taking all the time they want, unlike the volunteer programs that have limited funds and limited resources.  

UP must be making a killing on tinfoil hat sales.

Someone is so far removed from reality that it's striking.

jmiller320 posted:

they are put out to let all the people that think they know how to do it better and those with out a clue the progress they are making.  I can see that there are a few people that were close to the steam program and are no longer involved and their feelings are hurt.  They come on here and trash talk Ed every chance they get.  There are others on here that come on and jump on the band wagon and offer their opinions on how they think Ed is not the right person for the job.  Maybe doing this makes them feel smarter about themselves.  They comment on the procedure that the Steam Shop is doing and like me they have no experience rebuilding a steam locomotive except for the you tube videos they watched.  They have nothing to base their opinion on except for what they read on this and other forums or watched on you tube. 

Congratulations. 

You've just insulted every one here who has actually worked on steam locomotive restoration and operation while admitting you have no experience except for watching youtube videos.

Rusty