Weaver W-3 Wheelsets and Alternatives - Please Help Guide Me

Having wheel sets machined by someone else ain’t gonna be cost efficient, ….depending on the number of operations per wheel, you could be looking at an easy 15-20 dollars per wheel ( and that’s a shot in the dark!) …it’s a different story if you own a lathe, and this kind of work is your cup of tea ….you kinda need to pledge your allegiance to one or the other, unless you have the tools and machinery to pull off the un-doable ……I’d like to consider myself in the 3RSA ….the A referencing “ almost” as I still run crab claws ….that may change, but that’s down the road when I retire for good…….you gotta decide what’s for you, ….2 rail scale is quite different than 3R or even 3RS …..3R has a lot more forgiveness in track, flanges & tires,…..sorry to bust your bubble….

Pat

I run every brand out including 2 rail brass. All with Kadee’s. While some 2 rail wheelsets will navigate my Ross, Gargraves layout . It’s not 100% reliable as far as derailments. The brass cars are the worst offenders. Everything gets 3 rail trucks. Most Weaver cars you can get by adding washers to get wheel clearance from the chassis. A bit higher than 2 rail but lower than the stock car with the claw coupler. With the plastic Weaver trucks. It’s pretty easy to pop in different wheelsets. If you have the diecast trucks. Good luck taking them apart and getting them back together. Some such as the woodsided gondola. You can remove a rib from the chassis. It’s cosmetic and you can’t see it. It hits the flange of the wheel. Once removed the truck can rest on it’s mount just like a 2 rail car.
I run a lot of 2 rail brass milk cars. The less underbody detail the better. I give them a good look before I buy. Some models you can modify the truck you want to use buy adding a new center piece with the stock side frames. You hate to remove detailing just to get the flanges to clear. You also hate to see it sitting up high like a 4WD pickup.

Trust me. No one will notice your oversized 3 rail flanges rolling down the rails reliably. They will notice it when it derails with 2 rail wheelsets.

Thanks guys for the information.  When I change over to Kadees, sounds like leaving the Big standard 3R metal wheelsets and adding a washer is the way to go.

The Weaver cars are by far the easiest to convert to Kadee’s. I’d start with them.  You probably will need to shim them a bit to lower them. I use a height gauge as most do. It will set the couplers at the proper height if you use uncoupling magnets. Doing this will have the trip pin riding very close to the center rail. When you start laying your track. Just be on the fussy side and try not to have any dips or quick changes in grade elevation or the pin can contact the center rail and you’ll be chasing a random short.
When adding washers between the truck and chassis. I usually add just enough so the wheels don’t rub on your sharpest curve. If you can see where it’s rubbing. With Weaver sometimes it’s just a chassis rib that can be either sanded down or removed. The hardest cars to get low are probably the coal hoppers. The Intermountain tank cars I bought came with Weaver Trucks and couplers. I remember they also used a bonded metal washer so the claw coupler would clear. Thicker than a regular washer and sort of a concave metal surface for the truck to pivot on. Microfasteners has them. I remember using them on my Weaver cars rather than a stack of multiple washers. If your cars have plastic trucks and couplers. You can also just hack off the coupler arm and use what’s left to keep the same ride height. I still like the washer route as I feel you can get most cars lower other than the hoppers.
The wheelset your showing in plastic I’ve never seen. But the troop sleepers had a similar metal wheelset with a wide flat surface.

Most of my rolling stock is Weaver, I use Weaver 3 rail plastic wheel sets in Weaver plastic trucks, with Kadee couplers, on all brands of rolling stock. On Weaver I do not need any shims, for the trucks or the Kadee couplers. This will match the height gauge.  The Weaver plastic is Delrin, Mostly used for bearings and sliding surfaces.

Changing the couplers does not change the car height I don't think.    You have to change the bolster on the truck or the body to do that.

I would reccommend against intermountain plastic wheelsets because of the axles.    the axles are plastic and sometimes warp causing the wheels to not be parallel - lopsided.     both Weaver and Athearn plastic wheels have metal axles and in my experience are interchangable on the scale plastic trucks.     There may be some conflicts with the imported diecast trucks.

Clem uses plastic wheel sets.

Metal wheel sets are magnetic and can cause unwanted uncoupling over Kadee magnet uncouplers as the uncoupling magnets pull the metal wheel set toward the middle of the uncoupler creating slack and uncoupling.

Some of the earlier Weaver Diecast trucks had non magnetic metal wheel sets that perform similar to plastic ones.

2 Rail wheel sets perform well on Atlas 3 rail track.  They bounce a little on the frog, but do not derail (there is an easy fix for the bounce with plastic shims).  As others pointed out, Intermountain wheel sets are an easy swap in Weaver trucks.  The appearance of the wheel sets and the lowered car height is so much better.  It is worth the $13 cost and effort of swapping to 2-rail wheel sets.  

The general consensus of plastic vs metal wheel sets is that metal wheelsets roll more freely and do not collect oil/dirt crud as readily as plastic.  And honestly, I like the sound of them rolling on metal track.

If you use Atlas or another T-rail track, I would go the 2-rail Intermountain route over the plastic Weaver W-3 you mentioned.

I did a detailed article on installing Kadees on 3-rail cars in OGRR Run 294 Oct/Nov 2017 (viewable by digital subscribers).  

Also here is a link to O scale Kings detailing Kadee installs and 2 rail wheel set swaps in Lionel cars.

And a link to a forum thread on 3R to 2R truck conversions for Atlas and other rolling stock.

Bob

Thank you guys for all the information.  It is interesting to hear the different approaches taken to "solve the problem".

Clem - Thank you for verifying how I thought they were intended to be used (I had suspected they were Delrin).  A few questions: It sounds like you are happy with these, I assume you are using them on 3R Track and switches.  Could you tell me what brand track and switches you use?  Have you ever tried them on 2R track?   Is there a source you are aware of where a substantial quantity of these could be purchased (I have a lot of cars)?

Bob - Your recommendation is what I was originally planning to do.  But as you can see from some of the other responses here, they cite problems with that approach.  The 2R wheelsets would be great, because at some point I intend to join a 2R Club and could then operate the rolling stock at home or the club.

I actually have had one crazy idea, and that is to build a combined 2R / 3R layout.  Here's how it would work.  I have intended from the start a double track Main Line.

I love K-Line Aluminum Passenger cars so 1 Mainline track and the "Coach Yard" are 3R.  These really aren't scale cars, and with the skirting they don't look "jacked-up to me".  The locos I have bought are 3R Scale.

The other track would be for freight, I would convert all freight cars to 2R and need to buy 2R Locomotives accordingly.  Actually I have already bought both a 2R and 3R Williams Niagara.  The Freight Yard would be 2R.  I also own some Atlas CZ Cars in 2R which I could run on here if I wanted, rather than just display.

I would have 2 approach leads to a 3R Turntable, 1 coming from each main line, one 2R, one 3R.  The Loco Storage tracks would be 2R or 3R as required.  Can anyone tell me with commercial Turntables is the track  energized by the appropriate lead it is indexed to?  If so then, easy-peasy (correct)?

I don't think they were mentioned, but I use Intermountain 20050 scale wheels. They're 33" and insulated on only one side of the axle. They're a direct fit for Weaver plastic trucks, Intermountain kit trucks and will also fit in MTH trucks. They sell for between $9 and $11 for a set of four depending on where you get them. Scale City Designs carries them. They're Code 172 and work well with flat-top rail.

One note about Atlas 3-rail turnouts is that the guard rails are lower than the running rails and won't guide scale flanges. This is easily remedied with small strips of plastic or pulling the guard rails out and shimming them up to the height of the running rails. Ross and MTH ScaleTrax turnouts seem to work fine. In all cases, the wheels may bobble in the frog.

The Weaver diecast trucks won't seat the Intermountain wheels. When I converted some Sinclair tank cars I swapped them for plastic ones I got from Clem K (I think).

Atlas trucks can be used, but you need to use the included plugs.  I'm not sure about the ride height, though.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Thank you guys for all the information.  It is interesting to hear the different approaches taken to "solve the problem".

Clem - Thank you for verifying how I thought they were intended to be used (I had suspected they were Delrin).  A few questions: It sounds like you are happy with these, I assume you are using them on 3R Track and switches.  Could you tell me what brand track and switches you use?  Have you ever tried them on 2R track?   Is there a source you are aware of where a substantial quantity of these could be purchased (I have a lot of cars)?

Jim

I'm using Gargraves track and Ross turnouts, #6 and #8's  120" super elevated curves, 096 and #4 on secondary trackage.  In my experience the Delrin wheels run more quite, roll better, and do not pickup dirt ! Heck nothing sticks to them not even paint. Now the old Atlas Pola plastic wheels pickup a lot of crud.   The Weaver 3 rail metal wheels and 3 rail Delrin wheels are the same diameter as their 2 rail wheels. On heavy Die Cast cars metal wheels roll better.   I never tried them on 2 rail track, however I have tried running 2 rail equipment on my layout the locomotives are ok but some rolling stock is not reliable.  I use MTH 2/3 rail locomotives with 3 rail wheels without rubber tires. On 3 axle diesel trucks the center axle keeps its 2 rail wheels. not much success with 2 rail steam on Ross turnouts, or pulling power. However my MTH 2 rail 0-6-0 does just fine no derailments, even on large curved turnouts.

My email is in my profile I might be able to fix you up with wheelsets.

Clem

Matt - Thanks for the info on the Turnouts.  It is more detailed then other response I have seen.  You explain how to fix the Atlas Turnouts.

Clem - Thank you for the offer.  I need to decide exactly how I am going to proceed.  Once I decide I will let you know.   Your experiences with Delrin Wheels mirror what I saw in HO.  I am a Mechanical Design Engineer, there is a lot of bias against "Plastic" in general.  Back in the 1940's and 50's plastic was viewed as the miracle material of the future.  It is so common place now that it is no longer viewed that way.  If properly applied though it is!  Delrin Bushings can last for years WITHOUT lubrication if properly designed.  Look under the hood of your car and see how clean it is!  Think what engine bays looked like 50 years ago after your car was 5 years old.  The Cylinder Head "Covers" are now plastic, not stamped steel.

@AGHRMatt posted:

I don't think they were mentioned, but I use Intermountain 20050 scale wheels. They're 33" and insulated on only one side of the axle. They're a direct fit for Weaver plastic trucks, Intermountain kit trucks and will also fit in MTH trucks. They sell for between $9 and $11 for a set of four depending on where you get them. Scale City Designs carries them. They're Code 172 and work well with flat-top rail.

One note about Atlas 3-rail turnouts is that the guard rails are lower than the running rails and won't guide scale flanges. This is easily remedied with small strips of plastic or pulling the guard rails out and shimming them up to the height of the running rails. Ross and MTH ScaleTrax turnouts seem to work fine. In all cases, the wheels may bobble in the frog ...snip...

I find that these are the easiest to use. Not mentioned above is that they have metal axles and are chemically(?) blackened so that they do not stand out like the shiny silver ones.

Jim if you are just starting this ?   I would just go 100% 2 rail now.

@clem k posted:

Jim if you are just starting this ?   I would just go 100% 2 rail now.

My thoughts exactly! I just did not have courage the to post it.

So the situation is this.  I am a life long HO guy, got into 3R about a year ago.  You need to know I am "CHEAP".

Last year I was on "that auction site" buying some HO Athearn Metal Line (craftsman) Kits.  When I searched, it also showed me some O Athearn Kits.  To my shock they were selling for the same price.

I had always admired O SCALE from afar.  In the 1990's I could buy a new Athearn "blue box" plastic boxcar kit for $4.  At that time a Weaver Boxcar was $25.  You need to know that Athearn quit making these in 2009, by then the price had escalated.  They were also selling Chinese assembled, added detail cars, for probably close to $25 (not quite sure I never bought any).  Anyhow they decided to ONLY continue the pre-assembled items.  I was on Hiatus from buying Model Trains for about the last 10 years due to "life".  Also moved 1000 miles, so no layout at this time.

Anyhow once I saw the situation I started looking at other O vs HO comparisons and found the price factor was similar to about 2 to 1 for O Scale.  So to me, it was a no brainer.  My initial purchases were 2R O Scale.  However for every 2R item there were probably (50) 3R items on "that auction site".  The price for the same item was higher for 2R and it was taking forever to find items I wanted.

In the intervening years I actually attended the March O Scale Meet in Chicago a couple of times.  OH, you need to know that I always have favored Passenger Trains over Freight and am into Transition Era.  Love the Final Main Line Steam Locos.  There is back story to that, but we will focus on this story line.   Over the years I had seen K-Line Passenger Cars in Hobby Shops and always thought they were Awesome.  Once I was in a Hobby Shop in Milwaukee that specializes in O Trains.  On the top Shelf they had an ESE Loco and 21" Passenger set that was Stunning!  Even then (probably 15 years ago?) I was aware of GGD, I had talked to Scott when attending the O Scale Meet.  So I asked the guy if the cars were GGD, he laughed and said "no just K-Line".  He then pointed out how they "shined, which silver painted GGD Cars don't".  That stuck with me.

Anyhow I now live in Poughkeepsie, NY and have to support the home team!  So, one guess what I think the most magnificent Passenger train to ever ply the rails was.  Hint it premiered on Dec 7th 1941.

Well I bought a couple of K-Line 15" ESE cars (price).  I was hooked.  Also "sunk-in" that O is bigger than HO. From HO always liked Athearn Passenger cars which were based on 72' Cars.  When I bought some fully length Walthers HO passenger cars thought they looked ridiculous on 22" radius.   I have decided that I like the 18" K-Lines the best.  My plan has been O-90 and O-99 for the Mainlines.  If I go with 2R not sure if 49.5 radius will work for my locos (read on)?  Not sure that I have the room to go any larger, maybe could do 54 radius.

So over the last year I have bought a LOT of equipment.  Add info from prior posts about a mix of 2R and 3R freight cars.  A bunch of K-Line Aluminum Passenger Cars.  A fair amount of Williams and Weaver brass Steam Locos, all except two are 3R.  No track or Transformers, etc.  So this post was to help me understand and weigh my options.  My original comment about 2R guys saying gotcha.

So now my idea for a mixed 2R and 3R layout may seem somewhat more logical.  I just came up with it today.  It actually was driven by the mixed response about how to make this all work.  You guys didn't have the full story up to this point.  It would allow me to keep what I have bought for the most part.  I can run the K-Lines as is without having to convert to 2R.  Actually have bought a few cars that were converted, and even those with the K-Line Conversion Trucks seem a little hokey.  I should obtain the instructions that came with the K-Line trucks, I think someone didn't follow them correctly.

The bottom Line is maybe I should have stayed the course with 2R.  But I would have to convert every K-Line car at $30 per car or more if I am able to find enough K-Line conversion Kits.

I do WELCOME all feed back to this.  Please don't be afraid to say I need to go all 2R.  I am in deep enough already, now would be the time to fix the problem.