Well, Tether Me Down Maties

Scrappy, hopefully by the time they perfect this ipad and ir track stuff the ipads will get cheap enough to have multiple control panels at strategic locations on the layout. Used ones i hear can be had for cheap if all they will be used for is on the layout and dont need to be the latest gigabite to surf the web or run all kinds of apps. The yard is one place where it would be good for the yardmaster. The app has a basic yard engine control capability as of this time. At least that what they have demoed. Some one needs to come out with a cab2 holder that can be hung on the sided of the layout facia or a lionel cradle copy(just a plastic copy no charger or lights that you lay the remote in like the 993 one.) to place next to the ipad. Maybe on a layout panel shelf that has room for the ipad, cradle, and drink holder. Built by the person who is creative and likes to have this for his layout. I do agree with you about going back to standing if front of your old zw and not being able to tether free. The ipad app though may replace our block toggle switches and control boxes. Just like the touch screens in our cars have replaced the miriad of dashboard switches to control thing like the radio or ac/heater. Having one screen or multiple screens set up to have a variety of different buttons may be cheaper in the long run than having to buy dozens of specilized toggle switches and boxes to do the same job that can be done on the ipad screen.

It has basic TMCC control and you can control the speed and direction of the engine. But it will not replace the CAB 2

I see no reason to use the iPad to run my trains when the legacy remote will do everything and more and I am not tied down to one spot. 

 

The only thing the iPad does is give me a schematic of the track layout. Although that is nice it does not solve the problem of having two different devices to run our trains when it can be done with one.

 

Back to drawing board guys, I'll wait for something better.

I'm behind you 100%, Scher - about five decades back actually.

A DCS remote does all that and more now.

Maybe Lionel should be put on suicide watch?

Joe

 

One other thought.  A smaller company, such as Lionel, that invests time and money on developing something like this may or may not be a good thing.  I am sure they have good market data to support this investment and whether hobbyist would purchase this. What would worry me a little more is "putting all their eggs" in the iPad basket.  If only developed on the iPad platform this puts Lionel and the success of this investment in the hands of market shifts in a space that is constantly changing – tablets.  After development and production I wonder how long Lionel thinks this setup would be relevant. 

    

If I cant walk around with it and do everything, then this is absolutely useless. I'm one of those 30 somethings that this was probably aimed at, but if I cant do everything on it, then forget it. My first thought was "How cool would it be to run around with the modular club running trains on an ipad!" I thought doing that would have been the #1 thing to get kids (i.e. the general public that comes to the shows) to want to start playing with trains. But if I'm still tied to the lionel remote, and all this does is give me a virtual layout map, then I cant really see the purpose for this thing. The entire cab 2 interface could have easily been put on an ipad screen and controlled with swipes and gestures. For as much as its probably going to cost, I cannot see a use for it as a virtual switch flipper. Locking the iPad down negates the whole point of using an iPad.

OK, I'm confused.  Exactly what does the DCS remote do for a DCS layout that the Legacy remote doesn't do for a TMCC/Legacy layout?  Since the DCS remote won't operate Lionel switches or accessories, not to mention you have to have the Lionel TMCC/Legacy system anyway for it to function. I'm not all that impressed.  I use the DCS remote for DCS stuff and the Legacy remote for the Legacy stuff.

 

Give me a remote that run everything from Legacy (with all the features), ProtoSound 2/3, and right down to all my AIU and SC2 connected switches and accessories, and I'll pay attention.  I have to agree with the opinion presented in the original post.

 

 

Besides the map you can also use it to adjust speed, direction and control switches. The latest version replaces the LSU software on the PC and can be used to setup engines . you do not have to keep the iPad in one spot, it will be wireless connected to the iPad holder/wireless interface. 

 

It is not designed to replace the CAB2 only supplement it. One thing for those who want a full replacement for the CAB2 or the DCS remote do you really want to stare at your iPad or run your trains?  Try this to see my point. Take your current controller in hand and close your eyes. Can you adjust speed, blow your whistle and change direction without looking? Now close your eyes and touch the face of your iPad. What programs are you launching? So when you are coupling you engine to a row of cars where do you want to look, iPad or at your trains?

Not everyone wants to run trains while looking at a screen. I prefer both remotes to an iPad any day of the week. 

 

The controls on an iPad or similar device requires me to look at the iPad and not the trains. The remotes allow me to feel the controls to operate the engines. But as they say, each their own. I see no reason why it couldn't be added. 

 

Two different approaches for sure but one thing Elliot failed to mention, Apps are upgradable so it's not like you are locked in. If demand is there the product will evolve.

 

suicide watch?  You guys take this stuff way too serious. 

OK, I'm confused.  Exactly what does the DCS remote do for a DCS layout that the Legacy remote doesn't do for a TMCC/Legacy layout<<

 

 

I believe many people have control panels and also use a Cab-2 to run trains.  It seems to me that the IPad app just replaces the control panel.  What's wrong with that?  by using it you will not have to build the panel and try to decide which switch buttons to use.

 

doug

All of this stuff will continue to evolve, probably at a faster rate than any of us anticipate. So, while we may not see all the advantages we desire at the current stage of evolution, down the road we may well see some amazing things.

 

I forsee the day when you can program a few hours of operation for your layout on a tablet or cell phone. If you have a large layout you could build trains in the yard, send a locomotive from the turntable to pick up the train, make a run around the layout, setting out cars, having operating cars interact with accessories, run trains against traffic, etc. Several hours of activity could be planned programmed and then executed. On a large layout this would be like watching real trains in a busy area.

 

This would ultimately provide a video game type experience enacted on a real layout rather than a TV, computer or cell phone screen.

 

There is tremendous potential and we are only in the infancy of what will eventually be possible. Some of us will always prefer to push the throttles of ZW's while others will be pushing the limits of programming events and running their layouts from cell phones. I personally enjoy conventional operation, but I marvel at the capabilities that TMCC, DCS and Legacy currently provide and I am excited at the potential developments ahead.

 

While we are looking at beginning steps like the apps presently being developed that may fall short of what we are looking towards, we need to keep in mind that they are just steps along a path toward something better. I wouldn't want to be watching an i-pad instead of trains, but it would be really fun to pre-program an hour of events on my layout and then sit back and watch the trains go through their paces.

 

The hobby is many things to many people -- more power to them all.

 

 

I want cab video from each train on the iPad screen.

Joe you didn't answer the question...

 

what des a DCS remote do that the Legacy remote doesn't as far as operating ones trains and layout?  

i fully agree. I can see this optional accessory being very useful for those who wish to have a control panel, but do not wish to expend the effort, time and/or cost of building a physical panel. Some may not wish to use this option, and they will lose nothing by not having it. But for some others this will be a desirable extra option, and they will benefit from it. As far as I can see, everybody wins and nobody loses. What could be better than that? 

>>Joe you didn't answer the question...

 what des a DCS remote do that the Legacy remote doesn't as far as operating ones trains and layout?<<

 

Not much.. I was comparing DCS to Lionels proposed tablet control, not Legacy.

Joe

I realize that but then again that wasn't the question, and the same could be said for the DCS app.

>>> realize that but then again that wasn't the question, and the same could be said for the DCS app.<<

 

I suppose if you buy all the add on gizmo's and wiring harnesses Lionel offers for additional control, you'll end up with a concoction that will duplicate DCS with AIU..

Joe   

Joe

 

Lets stick with the original argument...

 

What is any different on the MTH App, than the Lionel App when it pertains to running trains?  Both apps will require you to "look" at your ipad and not your trains.  I think we both agree on that.

 

Now as it pertains to an AIU, I agree, one box is better than 3 or 4.  That is why I am looking forward to the new Lionel LCS controller.  It is a one box fits all.  The only thing I wish, is it had more outputs but depending on the price point that maybe irrelevant.

I can see how it would be nice to have the Ipad to run a large yard, like mine. Other than that would prefer using the DCS or Cab-2 Remotes for walk around mainline running.

 

I am glad they are investigating the Ipad app as it may lead to an Iphone app which would be smaller and held in one hand. The effort may also result in unintended features that may be even more usefull.

 

I will believe it when I see it...until then I will be running my trains.

With the rapid expiation of smartphones and tablets does the future not look like a time when either or both MTH and Lionel supply a command and control system which uses these platforms rather than supplying any remote control at all, why develop a CAB 3 or new DCS remote at all?

 

Mobile devices, smartphones and tablets, not out number people in the US, if there are 400 million + of these already in the market place, why spend hundreds of thousands in development of hand held remotes, tooling, and production, when for a fraction of that cost apps can be supplied which could replace all the functions of the remote units. The consumer can make a choice been a Kindle Fire, Ipad, Iphone, Android based phone, Windows 8 based tablet, etc., purchase whatever they are comfortable with or already own, download the app and start running trains.

>>>The consumer can make a choice been a Kindle Fire, Ipad, Iphone, Android based phone, Windows 8 based tablet, etc., purchase whatever they are comfortable with or already own, download the app and start running trains.<<

 

I think that this is the exact functionality that Lionel is aiming for in their iPad app.  When you only need to throw one or two switches while mainline running, it is pretty trivial to just use the remotes, but with a yard with many switches, right now you have to either memorize all of the switch locations and their designations in the remotes (or label each switch so you can see the switch designation), or you have to rely on a fixed control panel somewhere (or you could throw the switches manually).  Throwing a whole bunch of switches in a short period of time with the hand-held remotes can get pretty tedious, and this is where the app really would be handy, and when you couple it with the yard-switcher feature in the app, the app can become a really fun way to do yard switching, and would be much easier than using the remotes.

 

Personally, I don't want to have to look at a screen in order to run my trains, but I think there is definitely a benefit to having a virtual control panel versus a fixed-location, hard-wired control panel for many aspects of layout control.

 

Andy

Eliot's original post that the iPad doesn't control locomotives is apparently an incorrect assumption so this discussion is not evolving very well .

 

Not having been present, the iPad application seems an evolution to an entire high end system of computer based train control. Not for me or everyone I'm sure.  Lionel has command control switches if you want them (no AIU or other devices needed) (MTH doesn't, oh by the way ). Lionel is also planning on position detection hardware and software (check out the catalog). The iPad application provides graphic depiction of your layout, switch operation and controls basic locomotive functions. 

 

MTH has farmed this out to the Hikels in case no one has noticed those threads.  But as some have pointed out, for both DCS and Legacy, you will need the iPad or Android device to have graphic depiction of the layout.  Neither system has apparent advantages, although Lionel's track system (command switches) and position detection plans appear further advanced to me.

BTW, there is a developed (i.e., already working) app for Android phones that mimics  all the features of a CAB-1.  It was very successfully demonstrated on private layouts at York.

 

Hopefully, it will be announced and released on the OGR Forum soon.

To me if you wish to embrace the technology and you already have DCS and use Aiu's to operate your RR like I do, the use of the I pad on a large layout like mine, allows me to have pads on the perimeter of the layout to operate turnouts, set routes for the mainline and set routes for yard traffic, see block occupancy on the other side of the basement hidden from view when operating multiple trains and operate accessories of different types without going back forth on the DCS remote to perform the respective functions. The remotes sole purpose with this for me will be to operate the Trains in a more realistic manner and will leave one hand free to touch screens along the RR. Can you do this on the remote yes but with use of the pad, response time to operate a train(eg whistle, bell braking) will not be reduced to perform other functions in the going back and forth. After all isn't the goal realistic operation? Now I use legacy for operation of Legacy Trains to access all the cool features provided but choose not to use it for switches, routes and accessories because of the DCS investment made by me and no desire to add additional SC-2's etc because remember not everyone use Fast track. If you embrace the technology being presented by the respective companies you may embrace a younger generation which walks around with pads and phones super glued to their hands and yes they text without looking at the pad or phone and look straight ahead which could be to watch the Train on a RR, because they train themselves to do so. And finally if you only need a ZW to throttle up and throttle down, number 90 controllers to operate accessories and standard switch controllers it is a okay, have fun! Diversity and Technolgy is part of what makes life great!Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elliot's original assumption is a correct statement of fact. It is NOT an opinion. The app being developed by Lionel does NOT control the locomotive and is NOT designed to control the locomotive. This is from the development guru. So, if anyone has other information, especially if they have spoken with the Lionel development team as I have, I stand by my statement.

 

Whether or not Lionel will use the existing or developing architecture to control locomotives is an open question. I NEVER claimed it is not appropriate for those who want to stand by their control panel. What I said was, why would someone using a Cab 2 want to be tethered to a control panel? Of course, the answer is anyone wanting to walk around the layout CANNOT, by definition, use this IPad app to control switches unless you are as fast as Usain Bolt and can throw the switch before the loco gets there. I think I was pretty clear. Of course, you could juggle the Cab 2 and the IPad or put the Cab 2 in your pocket as you manipulate the IPad. My wife can then ask: Is that a Cab 2 in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

"If you embrace the technology being presented by the respective companies you may embrace a younger generation which walks around with pads and phones super glued to their hands and yes they text without looking at the pad or phone and look straight ahead which could be to watch the Train on a RR, because they train themselves to do so. And finally if you only need a ZW to throttle up and throttle down, number 90 controllers to operate accessories and standard switch controllers it is a okay, have fun! Diversity and Technology is part of what makes life great!Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

DK's (above) should be a standard statement to everyone who thinks it's his duty to impose on others in this hobby. 

What was the question!?

 

Eliot...seems to me that I heard what you heard and we were pretty much at the same presentations at York.

 

I was so engrossed by BK's Android app that functions exactly as a CAB that I haven't focused on the Lionel (or mth for that matter) apps.

 

https://ogrforum.com/d...nt/16212591184094970

I have to step back a bit now that I've read all these comments and thought about what Lionel is offering here and what this "iPad control panel" thing really is.

 

I agree with comments above that jumping into an iPad app is dangerous.  That's really a single tablet bet that can go wrong - not necessarily will, but can.  Seems to me that a better route might have been to just come up with a new piece of Legacy hardware - doesn't have to be a fancy tablet - to make a similar control panel.  If you think about technology and what a control panel should do, this isn't that far fetched, and could likely be done quite economically.  Yep, the touch screen part won't be cheap, but writing apps for different tablets would get complicated with keeping up with all the updates required.

 

I've always wondered why Lionel or MTH didn't offer some type of standard control panel, even if simplistic, that could interface with control systems.  Doesn't sound all that difficult if you think about it.

 

Just thinking ...

 

In the meantime I'll run trains the old fashioned way, with my Legacy remote.

Duh

That's funny! I thought the "old Fashin" way was to stand behind the transformer throttles or pick up the MTH Z4k Remote and run conventionally!

N.d.q.y. You said it best! Lets say you change your layout track plan or redo certain sections over time. Tearing up those mini switch panels you have built to control blocks and switches and trying to save everything to re use is totally eliminated with the ipad app. Just clear the screen and build a new configuration on the screen. So much easyer. As for programing the engines to do movments and standing back and watching it all will be easer now with the ir track and the touch screen app. This is one area I am sure jon z is brainstorming on. As for block detection and prototipical operation. This new way of control could be the way to go! If your old school and like to run convetional Great! If you see where this ipad control is going and you like it. I suggest you help the designers and tell them what you would like to see the LCS do. I am sure jon would welcome the feedback! I remember back in the day how all the guys balked at the tmcc remote and said it is to complicated and why would we need it. Now we have tmcc and dcs as the norm. Go figure!