Why all the Hate for the 4x8?

The rhyme, to me at least, sounded somewhat like....."If the glove does not fit, you must acquit."

I am so new to the 0-gauge that I have only purchased a big box of track. (More stuff is ordered.) Due to space considerations everything needs to be portable and stack-able. Both cars will be parked in the garage every night.

The first layout I will build is a 4x8 for my son. It has to split, stack, and slide under his bed when not in use. I am basing construction on the Lionel modular specifications. The second requirement is that it joins with a modular segments so that it can be part of a larger layout. The modular main line will act as a siding for the smaller layout. Here is a screen shot of my plan:

An earlier version fit on 4x10 and needed three segments to store it. The problem with it is that it would not fit in his bedroom without using the bed as a tunnel or removing furniture.

CivilEngineer posted:

I am so new to the 0-gauge that I have only purchased a big box of track. (More stuff is ordered.) Due to space considerations everything needs to be portable and stack-able. Both cars will be parked in the garage every night.

The first layout I will build is a 4x8 for my son. It has to split, stack, and slide under his bed when not in use. I am basing construction on the Lionel modular specifications. The second requirement is that it joins with a modular segments so that it can be part of a larger layout. The modular main line will act as a siding for the smaller layout. Here is a screen shot of my plan:

An earlier version fit on 4x10 and needed three segments to store it. The problem with it is that it would not fit in his bedroom without using the bed as a tunnel or removing furniture. 

A layout which has to be assembled and dismantled and stowed away will be cumbersome and inconvenient. You might consider a long narrow layout table to fit along a wall over the furniture like this:

 Long narrow layout for limited space

My wife has aesthetic requirements, so the permanent narrow layout will get vetoed. My kid will be 5 when I am ready to give it to him. He needs something low so he can see the action. I'll probably sit the layout right on the floor so the setup will be quicker without legs. Add the joining pieces, align the other side, turn the roto-locks, plug, and play.

Since it is portable, I have the option to move it to a family room for playing. With minimal accessories he can also incorporate his other toys. I've got plenty of open-top cars coming so he can make his own dinosaur train.

It can always be re-purposed as-is to be part of a bigger modular layout and replaced with something smaller if it doesn't work out. I don't mind holding on to the scrap lumber if the whole thing is rebuilt.

CivilEngineer posted:

My wife has aesthetic requirements, so the permanent narrow layout will get vetoed. My kid will be 5 when I am ready to give it to him. He needs something low so he can see the action.

Since it is portable, I have the option to move it to a family room for playing. With minimal accessories he can also incorporate his other toys. I've got plenty of open-top cars coming so he can make his own dinosaur train.

It can always be re-purposed as-is to be part of a bigger modular layout and replaced with something smaller if it doesn't work out. I don't mind holding on to the scrap lumber if the whole thing is rebuilt.

This about how I got started back in the hobby.. My younger daughter (about 5 then) took interest in trains, for whatever reason.. She 'discovered' boys and lost interest, but I was 'hooked' again.. Now it's my Grandson's turn.. He always wants to run Papa Neel's trains.. I think I have more fun than he does.. I let him pick out the trains he wants to run and away we go.. Unfortunately, I'm divorced now, but the one advantage there is that I have a free reign of what I choose to do with the trains.. I'm limited only by room size and my  imagination!!

I dont hate the 4 by 8, my layout is made up of like 20 of them

Berkshire President posted:

Nice post...and layout....DennyM.  Going from a "simple" loop to an L really makes a big difference/improvement.

I had actually drawn up a neat L for myself....but changed that to the Layout Drawing that I just posted b/c I could only make the L work with 0-72 on the outer and 0-63 on the inner main lines......and I opted for bigger curves over the L.

Thanks Berkshire,

It just started evolving that way. I wanted a train yard and that's what started it. I'm going to replace all my 0-36 curves with 0-48. That will be next years project. The horseshoe curve on the end of the 'L' is 0-48. I wish I had space for a bigger cure, but 0-48 will work out nicely.

CivilEngineer posted:

I am so new to the 0-gauge that I have only purchased a big box of track. (More stuff is ordered.) Due to space considerations everything needs to be portable and stack-able. Both cars will be parked in the garage every night.

The first layout I will build is a 4x8 for my son. It has to split, stack, and slide under his bed when not in use. I am basing construction on the Lionel modular specifications. The second requirement is that it joins with a modular segments so that it can be part of a larger layout. The modular main line will act as a siding for the smaller layout. Here is a screen shot of my plan:

An earlier version fit on 4x10 and needed three segments to store it. The problem with it is that it would not fit in his bedroom without using the bed as a tunnel or removing furniture.

 

Looks like a good plan. I would probably use the top design myself or mix the two designs up. That's what I did on my original 4x8 layout. It was suppose to a elevated outer loop with a inner loop that went under it. Instead I didn't elevate it and used a 45 degree cross track.

Amfleet25124 posted:

Question on the venerable 4x8 on why there are so many in the hobby (in all scales) against it.  There are already endless discussions on the internet that say it takes up too much space in the room, the plywood could be better used if cut into 2 foot wide strips for a switching layout, it’s too far to reach over, etc., etc., etc..

Maybe I’m missing something here, but how is that any different than a 6x10 (unless the majority of 6x10’s are in basements) which doesn’t get the same amount of flak as the 4x8?  Looks like the same space eating 2 feet on all 4 sides to me.  I’ve seen many photos of small to medium size layouts on the internet and magazines that have 4 or more feet of spacing against a wall with nary a mention of a cut-out for access to the rear.  I’m guessing that topside creepers are used in those cases, but how is that any different for a placing a 4x8 layout against the wall?

Just like I’ve seen 6x10’s with the center cut out, I’m sure that there’s someone out there that has a 4x8 with a 2x6 center cut out to operate it.

The significant difference that I can see between the 4x8 and the 6x10 is that the 6x10 requires extra carpentry skills instead of having everything already pre-cut for you (foam, lumber, etc.) at the store.  Is there a hobby elitist aspect to the hate? 

I agree with the "We all started with 8' x 4"s."  But as we grow smarter we realize that trains just don't continually circle.  I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it.  Secondly, you can get more surface and layout in an averaged sized room with better access NOT using rectangular sheets of plywood.  And, the trains don't have to continuously loop.  How about switching some cars around?  How about delivering and picking-up?   Just random thoughts...A layout will be more enjoyable if one has more to do than just watch the trains circle.  I'm NOT a hater.  ;-)  I'm a "Let's improve our design techniques" advocate.   

I've got two 4x8's stuck together in an L, my 4 year old likes to watch it go around in a circle. I've got some delivery tracks and some sidings for us to pull the train onto, but he just likes to watch it go around and around and push them all around.

Maybe when both the boys are older I'll expand, but for right now, my needs dictate something you can walk around and push a train, so 4x8 works alright for us.

Here's a 4x8 layout I came up with a while back. Its O27 with 42" curves around the outside. The inner reversing loop goes up and over the other track, but I'm not sure how to show that on scarm. I had to cut a couple of pieces of straight track, but it did all come together. The outside loop allowed for larger engines. My personal problem was that my older, cheaper engines could not make it up the incline very well. I took it all apart, but it sure seemed like a cool layout for a 4x8. A person could even add a turnout or two in the middle.

I can think of several remedies for alleviating this hatred of the 4X8:

1. Convert it to metric. This would render it 12192 x 24384, if you remove the decimal point. This is similar to the rulers sometimes used by fisherman.

2. Do therapy to help others overcome their denial that their layout is still 4 x 8, in spite of creative configurations.

3. Form an online support group for those with 4 x 8 o'phobia.

I think this issue is a kissing cousin to the 3rd rail phobia that sweeps through our hobby.

Watching a train loop is akin to watching a campfire for me. I only mess with the rest on occasion.

 If the trains werent there, Id be doing dioramas like I did as a kid, or building model cars, planes, boats, sculpting, painting, etc. The trains bring all that together; not the space.

In essence, the head of a pin can hold a beutiful picture , but I dont expect everyone to be able to see that either

The beautiful thing about about using a screw to attach the track is that they can come out so that it can be reconfigured as your desires change. Right now he is in to lots of circles and switches. In my layout I do have bumpers that can be removed so that I could attach a thin layout and extend it in the house. 

If I were trying for a hyper-realistic layout then a tight configuration against the wall might be a better option. I plan to also build a modular system for the garage that will satisfy my need for longer runs.

4x8 is perfect for N gauge ! 

Hi Folks,

     Anyone who grew up in Baltimore (where the layout was called a "Christmas Garden"), a 4 x 8 sheet fit nicely at the front window out-cove of the row homes (with the marble steps), in the space next to the vestibule in the front parlor. I imagine other east coast cities had homes with a similar space.  As I understand it (before my time), it was commonplace back in the 1930s - 40s in many neighborhoods in what is now called Southeast Baltimore.  Wish I had photos.  Perhaps the Baltimore Sun or the Maryland Historical Society would have photos and stories.  You could walk down the street and see the layouts through the front windows, at eye-level.  My mother said people would ring the door bell and you would run the train for the passerby, sometimes invite in those you knew.  Must have been a wonderful time!!!

Take care, Joe.

Hey, we work with the space we have.  Make the layout the best it can be no matter how small.  Remember the old cliche " good things come in small packages".  I think this is true.  4x8 in o gauge can be a nice creative challenge when it come to track plan, scenery, choice of locos and rolling stock, operation, etc.  Don't forget one can also build upward too, adding a partial second deck and elevated trolly or train line.  One can become amazingly creative within4x8. 

I say "in 4x8 make it great and forget the hate!"  ( btw - hate is a very strong word and IMO a poor choice for use in this thread ) 

shifting 18" of the 8' length...

this folded fig-8 might work.
cheers...gary

A funny thing happened. I was wandering the web looking for some 4x8 plans in another scale. Somehow I ended up back here on this old discussion. I mostly ghost around on here because I don't have a large scale layout to share photos of - much as I would like one.

My personal Model Train goal is to achieve the greatest amount of train satisfaction in the least amount of space.

Sheesh, if only I had the space for a 4x8 in any scale!

Lack of space means I have my O scale trains, my HO scale trains, and my N scale trains all stored away while I experiment with a 3 x 4 1/55 layout.

I agree with those who say the magazines do not focus enough on the regular model railroader, or the beginner. Sure, show me a couple huge layouts, but give me at least one creatively built small one in the mix.

I don't think it s much hate but we've all seen posts where someone says "I'm building a layout and want to know whats a good idea for a 4x8 sheet of plywood?" and about 3/4s of them say go with a bigger layout, you won't like that small size. I've even seen a post where someone was building their 10 YO kid a layout and someone told them to go with O72 because one day they might get a scale locomotive. Really? I believe that's where Amfleet is coming from, not so much hate but suggesting to a newb that he needs to go bigger because that's what they did/want and not giving the guy any real ideas that he can use unless he goes bigger. Some people don't want more, don't want to go bigger or don't want to spend the extra money right now just getting into it. They do it to everyone, ask about a 6x10 and several will chime in with if you split it in half or add onto it to make it an L you can yadda, yadda, yadda.  Kudos to those who do try to help them out within their size constraints or track limitations and the show them how it can be added to or enlarged later on if they want.. Kind a reminds me of asking someone to come over for a BBQ and them suggesting I get steamed crabs instead because that's what they usually do on the 4th (that has happened to me for real). So ease up guys, I know we all like bigger layouts but let the new guy work his way into it, show him just what can be packed into a small space, I've designed some pretty neat layouts, albeit rather simple, that fit on a 36" hollow door core and sometimes a smaller layout forces you to make design decisions based on a more limited pallet of ideas and available things you can use.

Jerry

@baltimoretrainworks posted:

Jerry

Looks like this thread has caught some new life.

Jerry, your explanation above is basically what I meant.

The title was a deliberate alliteration, but IMO too many folks 5 years ago got caught up in the "hate" word.

Cheers!

I didn't even pay attention to how old it was until after I posted it but it still is valuable today.  Maybe we need a new club like the CBL for 4x8ers, maybe call it the 48 Club (sounds more like a Jazz cub in 1930 NYC ). HMMMM, I'mma hatching an idea. Stay tuned folks!

Jerry

@CSXJOE posted:

To any 4x8 haters.

Here is a link to  4x8  I built and still have which was based on the D-190 display layout.  Lots of accessorizes and a fairly long track run (engine is not chasing the caboose).

https://ogrforum.com/t...yout-updated-7122012

It is also on a wheeled frame made from Harbor Freight moving dollies.

Joe, I just caught up with your post, now almost 9 years old!! Incredible job, I can't believe it didn't get a thousand likes.

What ya think?

Jerry

For our 2020 Christmas Layout, we built a 4x8 (plywood with 1x2's for underside framing) that sat upon our Dining Room Table.

The O-Tubular trackplan was a fairly simple oval with a passing siding and one stub siding (3 022 remote switches in total).

The difference maker was that we wired it up in old-school style with 4 OTS's in key locations and 6 switchable power blocks so we could park conventional locos and actually do some pretty cool switching maneuvers with two locos on the layout simultaneously.

4 X 8 is good to see what the trains look like running and not much else. If that's all the room you have you really should be into HO or better N. At least with some imagination the trains look like their going somewhere.

@Dennis Rempel posted:

4 X 8 is good to see what the trains look like running and not much else. If that's all the room you have you really should be into HO or better N. At least with some imagination the trains look like their going somewhere.

Jerry

One of the best kept secrets has been a 5ft x 9ft ping pong plywood that was easily bought in the 1950s and 1960s.  My father was a good builder and woodworker and built our childhood train board from a 5 ft x 9 ft ping pong table.  That extra foot in each direction allows many more track plans and just more room.  He later bought another sheet and made us a ping pong table.  I think in most cases it would have to be special ordered but could be had.

It is not necessary to be limited by the size of the plywood to make any size train layout one wants.  It is hard to move even a 4 x 8 so to move it around it is easy to make two smaller layout boards.

Charlie

A few examples as food for thought:

• A tall guy can pull off a sport coat with contrasting trousers because he is tall.  A short man would look better in a matching suit.
• A big marching band can create a nice effect with contrasting color guard uniforms.  A small band will look bigger and better when everybody matches.
• A McMansion might fit on an 80x100' lot, but it won't look right.

O scale on a 4x8' layout looks like the McMansion on the 80x100' lot or the short dude in the sport coat or the tiny little band on the big field.  The trains are simply too large to look their best on the run of track provided to them.  We could debate what scale is most successful at 4x8', but I think most of us know deep down on the inside that "O"  trains are too big.

Of course, life is full of compromises.  They build McMansions on tiny lots.  They sell sport coats in smaller sizes.  They make marching bands out of whatever personnel is available.  Do what makes you happy, but don't put your head in the sand and ignore the limitations of whatever path you pursue.

Jerry

4' x 8' is fine for Z, N, HO scales.

Once you get up to S and O scale, it is too small for the radius and diameter of the curves required to operate true to scale locos and cars.

Andrew

Why must we judge how another person pursues their train hobby?  We all face compromises of space, time, money, skill, etc., and we all have different likes and desires.  There's plenty of information available about the pros and cons of various approaches - we can all do some research and decide for ourselves.

A close friend has a 4x6 HO layout that consists of a loop with a couple of sidings.  He likes creating scenes and building scenery and could care less about switching or realistic operations. He has a stressful job, and watching the train run through the scenes relaxes him.  He's been a model railroader for 60 years and is well versed in the history, theories, and techniques of model railroading.

As long as a person does what makes them happy and doesn't do anything dangerous, I'm all for it.

You can do a lot 5'X7'.    The 304 Korber house and Diamond Scale TT are done 5' X 7'

A separate part of the layout, Coal tipple,  Slightly larger than 5'X7'   

The love/ hate of 4X8 layouts.

This forum is amazing, a 5 year old topic pops up containing a link to a 9 year old topic.

Hi. My name's Bob and I am a member of The 48 Club......Hi Bob!

@baltimoretrainworks- I might steal your artwork and hang it on a wall.  I hope it's not copyrighted
already.

I built what I could fit, I'm having fun, and I'm proud of it. Yes, one day when the kids are out of the house, I hope to build a bigger layout with wider curves, etc., but for now this scratches my itch. So many folks comment that they have all their stuff in boxes and don't even have a layout so having a layout, any layout, is better than none. I can run two trains and do a lot of switching so it keeps me interested. It's also a good proving ground to practice and sharpen one's modeling skills.

I have to chime in here and take exception to a common assumption in many of the responses: the idea that  magazines are only interested in publishing large layouts. There is one very logical reason that you don't often see small layouts featured on their pages--a magazine can't publish what it doesn't have. I know Allen Miller will back me up on this.

In addition, any layout, regardless of size, must be visually appealing or offer something unique. This is hard to do on a 4 x8, especially one that has more than one loop of track on a flat green tabletop. Add a few operating accessories and there is very little space for much else. Another factor is the enviroment. A small layout in the corner of a cinder block wall basement, in a spare room with a visible widow in the background, or in a cluttered space, is a challenge to even a professional photographer. Ask me how I know. 

So, the onus is on you. If you want to see more small layouts, you need to submit your layout to see if there is any interest. Remember, you don't have to be a professional photographer but your photos do need to be lit well and be technically usable in terms of file size. Any editor will gladly help you with composition.

@jay jay posted:

I certainly have no hate for 4x8 layouts. As with a lot of people, my first layout was on a 4x8  piece of silver-painted plywood, which accommodated my original O-31 layout, with a couple of O22 switches making a nice through siding. My present layout is just a magnification of that, and includes those same switches. And, yes, I have a lot of Plasticville, too.

This is the only photo I have of my layout, as it was back in 1961. This version was on a 4x8 plywood table, and had two O22 switches back to back at one end, allowing an inside loop as well as the outside loop. The first version of this layout had an O22 switch at either end, allowing for a passing track. The signal bridge and the light tower still serve on my present layout, along with the Santa Fe F3s and all the freight cars, etc. As can be seen, "scale" was not much of a concern. We had fun with these small layouts for years.

My dad's original childhood layout was a 4x8 with the 8 foot dimension cut down the middle and stretched a bit by around 8 inches.

You can see the remnants of it in the red rectangle below.  The rest was "added on" lol.

You sure can run scale 3R O Scale on a 4 x8. I purchased an Atlas LO-7 O36 track package which fits a 4x8. I run Lionel Legacy B6SB, 4-6-6T, A6 (4-4-2), Mikado, Ten Wheeler plus many Atlas, Lionel diesels pullnig my collection of Atlas O freight and passenger cars all scale. I have Mernard Buildings with tunnel sides if I which I can use for switching operations. My larger scale items ie VL go to the local club.Perhaps I run smaller consist normally using 2 locomotives. I am planning a larger layout but for now fun, learning, honing skills, sharing with friends this is where it is at.

@Mike CT posted:

You can do a lot 5'X7'.    The 304 Korber house and Diamond Scale TT are done 5' X 7'

A separate part of the layout, Coal tipple,  Slightly larger than 5'X7'   

Mike,

That's a nice looking Roundhouse and turntable setup.  I like the coal tipple as well.  I'd like to see more of your layout.

Two words-Carl Arendt. That is all.