Why did the UP restore the 4014 & not 1 of the other big boys?

Exactly which UP steam locomotives are running right now?

There are folks on this forum who have experience in restoring, repairing and operating steam locomotives, you know.

Rusty

Terry,

The "bottom line" is not everything in business.  Thinking such as this leads to GM managers not fixing ignition switches, people dumping stuff in rivers, wide spread bank fraud such as we saw in 2008, NINJA home loans, etc.

The UP steam program is probably as effective "public relations" effort as a Super Bowl ad is to another business.  (Have you ever seen a railroad ad during the Super Bowl?)   Just look at the hundreds even thousands of people who go to look at big steam in operation.  Every successful business must have the support and confidence of its customers and the public.  I believe that big steam programs make railroads visible to the public.  Face it, most people in the USA have no interaction with railroad and have no idea what they do or their role in the economy.  

NH Joe

What engines have they ran since July 2013? Maybe the answer to that question is the reason for some of the criticism. Ed Dickens has continually attempted to lay the blame for his own ineptitude on the feet of the programs creators and former caretakers. That is why so many like myself despise him. Ed Dickens at this point hasn't done a **** thing but spend the better part of a year dragging a dead hulk to Cheyenne and causing the beloved 844's early need (she was not due the 1472 until 2019) for overhaul due to his out right neglect of it. The criticism of Ed Dickens has very solid merit.

OH, I see.  Ed snuck in and did the questionable repairs and put the unit back together, so when it was torn down they would discover the half sassed work and blame it on the old crew.  Has to be true, Ed can cause diabetes.

What was the deficient work exactly? I saw some pictures Ed Dickens circulated of some rusty parts and there was some jacket spacers welded on in places he didn't like. That's the only "evidence" I've seen. I've also seen the pictures of 844's boiler interior. The ones that show the MASSIVE lime build up. The real reason for 844's early overhaul! He sure dont talk about that!

The UP Steam program should be praised by everyone on this forum. 

Why are some people so critical of a good thing

I love the UP stem program. That is why I'm concerned. My dad brought me to the old salt lake depot to see 844 in about 1967 when I wasnt even half as tall as her drivers. Been following her ever since. My parents got me a ride on an excursion pulled by 3985 in 1994. A few years ago I was wondering what happened to 3985 and I started digging on the internet. The stuff I've found has been very alarming. When I see those engines its almost like seeing part of my family or an old family friend. Thats how I feel about them. I believe the Dickens regime is putting the entire thing at risk!

Concerning the UP steam program:
Fact: none of the engines are running, nor will they be for the foreseeable future.

Fact: the current "manager" is an inexperienced hack whose skills lie more in excuses, blame, and deflecting of actual responsibility. I would say he is perfectly trained as a politician.

Fact: Whatever your feelings about the previous crew, Jack Wheelihan (Hotwater) has a solid reputation in this hobby as an steam engine crewman, historian, and photographer. The other people in this group have more accomplishments than Dickens will ever have. If you doubt me, check all the positive press on the UP steam engines until 2012 in all the major magazines. How much positive press has Dickens produced?

Fact: There are persons commenting that really should come out from under their train tables for a while and embrace some reality. Sadly, this is not the only prototype subject where there is an abundance of misinformation and ignorance.

Finally, many people seem to rely on facebook postings for their "info", very few want to actually research an issue to find facts.    

 Absolute, total utter hogwash. 

What steam program? Union Pacific had an operable steam locomotive every year from about 1865 through 2013...until the current manager took over. Since then...nothing.

But of course, that's all the OLD crew's fault. 

OK so we have at least one verifiable fact, no steam engine is running. On the speculative side,  Mr. Dickens apparently commandeered the job by snowing the management at UP. That must have caused a revolt of the troops of the old regime  so they all quit.  There are what, 8 to 10 employees now working on something for UP supposedly doing repairs, needed or not. Maybe they are really not working on the steam program but their "working" there is just a sham.    Someone made the stupid decision to waste time improving the repair facility in Cheyenne. Someone made a bad choice by thinking that a big boy could be restored.  Lets assume that Mr. Dickens made some mistake causing damage needing repairs.  So now we all cry because UP has no live steam at the moment.  We gnash our teeth because we think that Mr. Dickens is making the repair decisions without any expert advice, or that he is not relying on the right experts.  So we do nothing to support what UP has given us. Maybe the publicity over restoring a big boy is simply a PR stunt that UP management has concocted, never intending to restore it.  If so, what can be done about that?    Hot Water says it is useless to go to management. So maybe UP eventually  makes the decision that says, you know what, our earnings are down, all we get is criticism for what we are willing to go forward with, the RR community does not support what we are willing to do,  let's just not fund any more steam.  Maybe we would be better off.  Let the steam programs be  done by private not for profits and donors.  I just read an article in the latest Trains magazine, it took the better part of 30 years for a not for profit to resteam a narrow gauge  steamer in California/Nevada. And lets see now, NS and predecessors had steam every year for the last 40? Check, Same with all the other east coast roads. Check.  Warren Buffet's BNSF has a great steam program at present given that Mr. Buffet is continually posturing about all of the  charitable cause he supports. Check, right.

That rumor apparently got started by a news story in Florida about a neighborhood whiner calling the local Environmental Office about his neighbors BBQ smoke wafting thru the area. Even the official seemed embarrassed by having to come out and check it.

This is how internet rumors are born.

Jerry

Heh, heh...

Rusty

U can have my charcoal grill when yunz pry it out of my cold, dead hands !  

"That rumor apparently got started by a news story in Florida about a neighborhood whiner calling the local Environmental Office about his neighbors BBQ smoke wafting thru the area. Even the official seemed embarrassed by having to come out and check it.

This is how internet rumors are born.

Jerry"

AMEN!

But is it a good thing if they haven't run anything for over two years and no date in sight for running anything else?

For an all-volunteer operation, we all could see that happening, but for a corporate program like the UPs? Isn't that embarrassing to them?

Look, I have no clue who is right in the middle of all this back-and-forth finger pointing. All I know for sure is nothing's steamed for 2 years and I don't see anything steaming out of Cheyenne for a while to come.

That, to me, is the only issue I have. I couldn't care less about personal issues, grudges, and "he said/she said" nonsense that I'll never know the truth of.

More money wasted on another useless "study".  And the fact that it is coming out of Southern California just says it all.

Those guys should get in in touch with the EU mob in Brussels! Sounds like a match made in heaven

Don't mess with a mans grill

Nick

'Scuse me whilst I put on the Kielbasa...!

>Quote function is busted<

Hot Water wrote "

More utter nonsense from the current manager. If he hadn't tried to use #2 diesel fuel for one season, there would not be firebox "problems" to repair today."

How has burning diesel caused damage to the firebox?

Hot Water - In the discussion below on trainorders you talk about burning almost anything including diesel in 844. Is the current damage due to lack of experience firing 844?

http://www.trainorders.com/dis.../read.php?10,2719136

Combination of both, i.e. inexperienced personnel firing, and extensive use of #2 diesel for way too long. It isn't a problem when #2 diesel has to be used in an emergency (fuel truck doesn't show up, and there MUST be fuel in the tender, so you do-what-you-gotta-do), but using #2 diesel fuel for a whole season, is VERY hard on the firebox of such large steam locomotives.

Is that related to the viscosity of diesel fuel vs. that of the fuel oils -- i.e., the atomizers on the fuel feed aren't designed for the thinner diesel fuel? I'm thinking that would cause an inconsistent spray pattern. My recollection is that 3751 is fired on recycled motor oil and I THOUGHT that's what they used on 844 & 3985.

All....  In my experience within the oil refinery industry, and personal experience with diesel equipment-  #2 fuel has a higher degree of unrefined sulfur in it, that is the major difference between #1 and #2 grades.  Also, hands on experience with burning higher degrees of sulfur grade fuels in furnaces located in a Rohm and Haas Chemical plant... per the "expert engineers" opinion, to use lower cost fuels.  After a couple months we had to completely rebuild the furnaces due to the chemical changes in the sulfur compounds, creating sulfuric acids, which ate away at the firebrick and carbon steel tubes, furnace shells, etc.  No doubt, this would also be a problem with burning a higher percentage of sulfur contaminants in any type of firebox. 

Bunker oil is typically well over 0.5% sulfur (allowed to be as high as 3.5% in non-ECA areas), and steam locomotives had been burning it for years.  Bunker oil is still used extensively in low speed diesel engines in marine applications, and yes, it is very corrosive.  #2 diesel fuel, prior to the change to ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel), typically averaged around 0.2% sulfur. Diesel engines loved the stuff, and with the right TBN oil, and lubricating oil analysis, did not cause problems.  Today's #2 diesel sold in this country, and used in locomotive service, is ULSD at 15 ppm. 

Here is a pretty good overview of different oils:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil

Now here is where I don't quite follow the statement that Hot Water has made in regards to the use of #2 diesel fuel.  In the Trainorders thread referenced above, Hot made the following statement.  I've bolded a comment in regard to CPR 2816.

Today's oil burning steam locomotives, 4449, 844, 3985, 3751, etc., generally burn waste oil, i.e. re-claimed crankcase oil drainings. The stuff is reasonably cheap, doesn't have to be heated much, if at all in summer months, burns reasonably clean, and is readily available nation-wide. That said, I know that 4449 and 844 have had to use diesel fuel, from time to time, with absolutely no burner changes nor firing complications. In fact, the CPR Empress Hudson, 2816, has been using standard RR locomotive diesel #2, ever since she has been in service on the CPR operation.

Were there boiler issues on the 2816 during her time running #2 diesel?  That used to be a pretty well run operation, and I don't remember anything regarding boiler issues with her, but then again, I'm not that close to the steam locomotive community.  If she ran fine on the CPR, then #2 diesel fuel, in and of itself, is not the whole issue here.  What other factors, when firing the locomotive with #2 diesel, cause issues?

Regards,

GNNPNUT

Jerry,

Yes, the CPR #1816 used #2 diesel directly from the diesel units service facilities. However, the firebox on #2816 is not really all that large when compared to the cavernous fireboxes on 4449, 844, or 3985. Thus, the #2816 did fine burning #2 diesel, plus having experienced Firemen.

Hot Water - Are you involved in any non-UP steam operations at this point?

Still with SP 4449 since the summer of 1975, 40 years and counting.

if I remember correctly all the problems with boilers are in regards to water chemistry and washout schedule or lack thereof?

Thanks for the clarification.

Problems with WHO'S boilers?

Hm, so a crew of how many eight or ten? is working on repairs and upgrades of three late generation steam locomotives. 119 or Jupiter are classic E unit engines to their legacy command control of 4014 to make an imperfect analogy.

Bigboy having its boiler rebuilt to a tapered one is not only complicated but risky if my reading of steam boilers is right, that could take more than ten years to get right, depending if they run into draft, steam pipe, water flow, frame and/or alignment issues. Each engine really needs a huge work crew for each, a huge ready shop to build parts and engineers who have built or worked on steam engines for years, if not their whole life. There are thousands of custom built parts and a too small of a crew could spends years if not decades getting them up and running again. That is assuming they can get their hands on high grade materials. Last I knew they were still setting up the shop for steam engine repair by removing the platforms and a false ceiling. Cut them some slack, it is a huge job and gets harder to do with each passing year, management or not, the 1940's were a long time ago generation wise and the experience, the knowledge, is getting lost.

How is it that the 4449, 261, 611, Western Maryland Scenic, Strasburg, etc. folks manage to know how get the job done right?

There are folks out in the real world that know boilers...

Rusty