you're fired

Not that I know of.

About 35 years ago I was privileged to observe the "cold start" of a horse drawn steam powered fire pumper, one on one with the owner. It took about 45 minutes to begin pumping a usable fire stream. It was an enlightening experience. I wish it could have been videoed - it would have been an educational and entertaining record for generations to come.

If Gary is suggesting the need for such a video recording of a "cold Start" of a steam locomotive, I certainly agree that that one done professionally would be enjoyed by this and future generations.

Search on youtube. I'm fairly certain that I've seen a video of the fire up procedure for UP844.

I remeber seeing a video from a news report. It was about 3:00 am and showed the fire being lit.

There is or at least was a several part series on Youtube on firing up one of the Wilmington & Western (Wilmington, DE) steam locomotives. Granted it was several years ago so it wasn't HD quality but well done overall.

A friend of mine owns a Stanley Steamer automobile and when asked to have his car ready in 5 minutes for a "pass in review" at a high end concourse event, he told the officials that it takes 45 minutes for a cold start.  I also work at the Henry Ford Greenfield Village and it takes quite a while for our steam engines to be ready for their daily runs.  Very interesting to watch.  Steam locomotives are beautiful machines, but there's a reason railroads went to diesels. 

Some years ago I was actively videoing the East Broad Top RR and at least once I got there early in the morning in time to watch them light the fire. As I remember, it wasn't very complicated or exciting. Some coal, wood, oil soaked waste and a fusee. Did take some time to get the steam built up, however.  While that was going on they went around oiling the engine etc.

Firing up a large steam locomotive is a slow process. From lighting the fire until having steam up to 150 psi or so (enough to move) takes 8-10 hours. We could do it faster, however the key in firing up a big boiler is to do it slowly.

By firing up slowly, the entire boiler becomes heat-soaked evenly. That eases the mechanical stresses which are set up any time the temperature changes in the boiler. Forcing the draft to fire up faster can cause broken staybolts as the thermal stresses accumulate.

I recall one incident years ago when we had to fire up the 765 fast - as in 4 hours from a stone-cold start. We had enough steam to move in about 3.5 hours. However,  the front of the boiler up near the smoke box was still cool to the touch! It was hot enough in the rear to make steam but still ambient temperature at the front! Talk about mechanical stress! The boiler was creaking and banging as it expanded unevenly. We broke a couple of staybolts on that one.

I'm not aware of a 765 video which goes through the entire process. Besides, most of that process is just waiting...

I found this NYC film about getting a steam locomotive ready for the day. I'm guessing procedures are similar for most steam locomotives.

Jerry

yes, i've seen a few youtube videos on large engines firing up, but i am particularly interested in coal firing of the NKP Berkshire.

frankly i wouldn't have guessed as long as 8 hours, but do agree it would need to incorporate a good deal of editing to take out the waiting-for-pressure repetitive tasks between the key tasks like activating/ checking feedwater injectors and pumps, air compressors and even when and how to get the stoker up and running.  ...so much more informative to see it visually.

combine this with engine blowdown and cleaning procedures; basically everything that happens from rolling out of the roundhouse to rolling back in and i'd buy a DVD.

appreciate the responses.

cheers...gary

None of those tasks (checking the feedwater pump, injector, air compressors, stoker, turbo-generators, etc.) can be performed until the fire-up process is complete and steam pressure is up. All those appliances run on steam.

Not to mention that the boiler of a large locomotive like 765, 261, 4449, or 3985, expands over 2" in length from cold to full working pressure. All that expansion of the steel should take place VERY slowly, since there are no longer any railroad back shops and/or roundhouses full of hundreds of Boilermakers to make constant repairs.

Why the railroads had hostlers to keep the engines warm all night for the next day. I would imagine avoiding damage to the firebrick in the  firebox would be a concern.

The firebrick was the least of their concerns. Even a cracked firebrick still does its job, i.e. retain heat. Cracked/broken staybolts and boiler flues/tubes is of much greater concern.

Nice video, Jerry, thanks for sharing it. 

It can get strange these days. As a former stationary steam plant guy, I've been glared at and loudly questioned by so-called managerial people who have no idea of the boiler stresses caused by rapid warm-ups. So many minutes burning every hour is not good enough for some folks: they want steam now!

Coil-tube and flash boilers like the old Doble cars and Stanley Steamers as new, could get steam up relatively quickly, but the old reliable fire-tube/locomotive types need the kind of time that drives non-steamies nuts.

I think that some railroads had steam lines from stationary power plants that were used to keep steam in the boiler and the boiler warm during maintenance periods.  

NH Joe

Not exactly. Every good sized roundhouse had a stationary steam plant that supplied steam for heating and filling/firing up locomotives. Whenever a locomotive cam in for its monthly boiler wash and was drained, the boiler would have been refilled with hot water & steam as the fire was relighted.

So how does Strasburg operate their steam locos? Do the do a cold start every day, or do they keep a certain amount of fire going overnight? And how were these locos run back when steam was the only locomotive power?

Here's a link to some generalized work on warming up an Australian tourist railroad steamer. Time-condensed of course, and it would take a good long while to even get that 50 psi shown on the gauge. Notice they start with a small campfire of wood to get things warmed through first, and I'd guess that wouldn't be a steady fire either. 

The Strasburg engines stay hot overnight, just as 765 does when we are running trips over a weekend. They could bank the fire or keep a road fire in it overnight with a hostler to watch things. I'm not sure which method they use, but they don't do a cold start each morning.

Even with NO fire in it overnight, a steam locomotive would still be quite hot the next morning. It takes a long time for all that steel to cool down.

I was in hamlet n.c. I asked an old railroad man."How did you get the fired started in the steamers.He told me with oil soaked rages paper.I did not think to ask how long it took?I gonna go with rich on this one.Given the size of these locomotives.

At the New Hope & Ivyland R.R. in Pennsylvania,where I was one of many fireman on # 40(a 2-8-0 consolidation), at the end of the running day a fireman had to bank the fire for the next running session(usually the next day). Banking the fire in this loco  required about 50 + - scoops of coal, not all at once. You shoveled 8-10 scoops into the firebox,(which still had a small fire after shaking out some ash), at a time just inside the "butterfly doors", let it catch fire, which took a little time, and as you were waiting for the coal to catch fire,you'd be filling the boiler with water and let the pressure fall around 5- 10 lbs at a time and not more because of the mechanical stresses of the boiler. Meanwhile,you wait for the water to rise in temperature before adding more water, and remember, the water is cold going in, so once again there is no rush to fill or you could  snap staybolts. Everything is supposed to be a slow process because you don't want to snap the staybolts. Next you'd add more coal once the previous scoops are well lit and continue to fill the boiler,( again a little at a time), almost to the top with water, because there was no one there at night,until the next morning, so you don't want the boiler to run low on water while perking all night, usually around 50 lbs + or so.              The next day, it took about 3 hrs. to get a full head of steam because the boiler had some steam in it, from perking, and the boiler is already pretty warm, so you "break the bank" of coal, spread it out with your rake and coal it over. Usually you can start to add the draft to give the fire fresh air, which will start raising the temperature, as the fire continues to get hotter. This loco operated around 175 lbs. and from a cold start, it usually required 8 hrs. to get a full head of steam.  The description is a little vague, but I hope that helps.

i would have thought the injector might start working well below operating pressure.

is the firebox hand stoked for the entire process then?

Related question:  For purposes of FRA "days in service", at what point does the in service day officially begin and end? 

One day of "service" is counted when there is pressure in the pooler above atmosphere and fire in the firebox. The law is written that way so whenever a hydrostatic test is performed it does NOT count as a "day of service". Also, with an oil burning steam locomotive, the boiler pressure and water level can be increased to maximum, and then at 11:55PM the fire can be shut off. Then, 24 hours later, at say 10 to 15 minutes after midnight the NEXT day, the fire can be relighted, and one "service day" has been essentially saved or skipped. Such action can sometimes be important on long trips, in order to carefully schedule a mandated boiler wash while still "on the road".

Rich,when you guys (and gals) completely shut down 765, do you put the fire out, let it burn out on it's own, or do a controlled burn where the fire is slowly reduced? How long before she can be pushed back into the barn?

I don't know how the NKP 765 folks do their "shut-down", but with SP 4449, we fill the boiler full of water, using the Nathan injector slowly, then put the oil flame out. Then she is run into the building with the stack under one of the smoke-jacks. The stack is then covered and all the steam appliances are turned off, and the cab is closed up. She is still hot to the touch 2 days later. For long term shut-down/storage, we take her back outside the next day and blower her completely dry, i.e. water and steam completely vented/dumped, then the boiler is refiled with compressed air and all the appliances are run with the very dry and hot compressed air. This was a shut-down & storage procedure developed by the C&O and the Mechanical Advisory Committee. 

 When firing up a cold locomotive Is wind direction a factor?  Wind blowing down the stack or from the  firebox end?

Is a "day" of service based on the clock, ie midnight to midnight, or 24 hours from the time pressure first shows on the steam gauge?

Not just pressure on the gauge, but also must include fire in the firebox. Thus, fire in the firebox and ANY pressure above atmosphere in the boiler is counted as a calendar day.

Hot did you ever have a wood stove?

Those are interesting perspectives about the work of maintaining and operating a big steam locomotive. It also reflects on a major reason why steam lost out to diesel: more time and labor involved with something as basic as preparing a cold unit for operation.

Please refer to the original poster's question. I don't recall "wood stoves" being involved.

I'm familiar with a Canadian agricultural museum that has steam tractors that only run a few hours, a few times a year on show days.

At one time, several of their tractor boilers were permanently un-lagged for convenience of pressure vessel inspection frequency. I asked a couple of the operators about this, and they said the pressure gauge drop was quite visible when they turned the tractor side-on to a stiff breeze. 

We used a stack fan to create a draft for the fire on a cold chooch at IRM.  Worked the same on calm days or windy days.

Rusty

A question about steaming up:

I know that small live steam locos often use a small electric fan on the stack to help the draft when steaming up a cold engine. With a full-size steam locomotive, I imagine shop air is generally used to help the draft until steam pressure comes up? What if shop air or residual steam pressure is not available? Is it just a slower process without something to help the draft?

Or do they turn the loco on a turntable so the prevailing wind can blow into the firebox door? 

Another thought about drafts: I worked on power generator engines on some large ships and was surprised to learn that the big ship stacks create a measurable vacuum which aids exhaust flow - even when the main engine was cold. Could tall roundhouse vent stacks provide some drafting assistance?

We rent an air compressor for the day.