Mike Wolf to retire and close MTH

In G scale, the fate of Aristo may be instructive. It went under. Mr. Polk was the founder and he retired. Someone, perhaps a relative, took up the baton and re-opened the company under a new name. It did not succeed. There was some interest in continuing the electronics side and a new company was formed, but it did not last. Perhaps it is that time has passed and what worked before did not any more. In Gauge 1, Maerklin bought LGB and more recently, started KM-1, it appears, to be a blend of Kiss and Maerklin. Bottom Line: our hobby is consolidating into a few companies, just like many of the (former) Class i railroads merged into a handful.

My best to Mike, because he made our hobby competitive and, therefore, more enjoyable. He will be missed.

Mark

@david1 posted:

What are you guys doing? All the agnst, complaining, feeling sorry for yourselfs because you may not be able to get parts or your favorite trains. Mike Wolf wants to retire for God's sake. Wish him good luck and thanks for 40 years of great trains. 

We know nothing of what will happen in the future with MTH or will not happen. All the crying is getting very annoying.

Dave

Wait, does MTH still have any replacement parts in stock?

@breezinup posted:

That's probably part of the problem. Scott Mann buying ERR is one thing (for example); someone making a large investment for an entire toy train company in today's market is quite another - a much tougher sell.

If anything, it makes sense that MTH will be divided piecemeal, with the train manufacturing portion least likely to survive. Just IMHO. Noone really knows what the current market is, although Lionel keeps saying that each year is their best year yet (at least in recent years). Wouldn't be a complete shock if they jump on part of the carcass is the price is right.

Lionel won’t be saying that 2020 is “their best year ever;” you can count on that. I do wonder what affect the current terrible economic conditions had on Mike’s decision to call it a day at this particular point. 

Certainly, model trains being almost a poster child for discretionary spending, I would guess that holiday sales  will be mighty thin this year. 

@Professor Chaos posted:

I'm not sure how much of the design work is done stateside any more.

I remember Mike Reagan posting something about how they wouldn't know what parts an engine would have until they received them from China.

The train companies like Lionel will give the Chinese factory the parts specification; sometimes the factory will go off script and do something else, which then has to be either accommodated or corrected. Just add that to the other duties and problems the companies have to deal with. 

@breezinup posted:

The train companies like Lionel will give the Chinese factory the parts specification; sometimes the factory will go off script and do something else, which then has to be either accommodated or corrected. Just add that to the other duties and problems the companies have to deal with. 

Never done any work in the model train hobby in China....but lots in other hobbies. 

We did all design work here, sent CAD  to China, 3D print prototypes made, changes, corrections, tooling cut. Production 

NO design work done here for our hobby???

I did not read all 13 pages, but has anyone suggested an investment holding company might be a buyer, like what happened to Lionel?  Maybe try to leverage a good price, hoping to make profit along the way and then resell when the economy and hobby is in better shape.

@superwarp1 posted:

Menard's that's the answer.

Hi Gary,  I hope so!  One of my best memories at my two visits to York was having dinner with you and your son.  I hope all is well and you are always welcome ton visit me in Tacoma!  

@AMCDave posted:

Really???? Half of our hobby is going away and we are just to say 'OK...nice' and not discuss? As I've said....MTH is WHY I am in O3r......it's worth discussing informed or not......and I think it's been very civil and smart so far.

You're making my point.

No additional information, just comments on comments on comments.

I hope rich and andy can carry the company forward. they do not seem young enough yet to retire. although they me be the ones getting the dcs part of the business. they may not have wanted the overseas factory part. with the current world climate who could blame them. we can only armchair speculate at this time though.

I finnaly now have the finances to buy preimer engines again. just got about 6 this last month. then I wake up to this news. still cant get my head around it. I just hope the new instock engines and more specifically  the roadnames and model types I want will be available when I am ready to buy them. I do buy lionel but right now mth has produced what I want and some models like there dash nines have better detail than lionel. 

I have also bought a fair amount of new in the box used ps3 and ps2 3volt engines of this forum and ebay witch were very good deals. most were half or a third off the new price. some were even hard to find road names I collect. 

I realize most people say that there was nothing new being produced by mth for several years and that maybe true, but for me at least reissues were fine as it allowed me to get the models I could not get the first time around and some with the new ps3 and leds in them. 

I also am glad that dcs is going to be carried on hopefully as I have a few engines I want ps3 in. 

So lets all wait,breath,take a step back and lets let the mth folks fill us in on the future of the company. lionel is ok and stronger than ever today and the name lives on. mth will live on too some how I feel or at least I hope it does.

I just wish whoever buys the company or the tooling for the models takes the same aproach as mike wolf did and keep the prices resonable. all my mth engines are workhorses and they pull tons. never had a board fail on its own yet. the only ones that failed were my dumb fault as I was learning to repair stuff. most mth engines were highly detailed and well built with out all the fancy gizmo tricks that lionel has. so for steamers that was fine with me. one main smoke unit to replace the wick in every now and then easy peasy. desiels were even easier to work on if needed.

I often said mth trains were for the working man. no 2,000 legacy in thier line. to me at least they were like HO on steroids. big,loud,hefty,full of detail and when I run them they just feel like the real thing. especially when viewed at track level. heck even there cruies control had me hooked the first time I got one. I will not to this day buy a locomotive with out it. thanks again mike. 

Even if DCS survives as a stand alone entity, how sustainable will that be if  MTH no longer exists? 

I don't think the replacement parts market can keep them in business for long, no matter what new updates and improvements they make.  If it does, what does that say about there electronics that require so much replacement.

I think the only way for DCS will survive long term, is if they partner with one of the remaining train manufactures or whoever buys MTH as a whole or in parts.

Reading all the post and what is happening around all of us kind of reminds me of the movie when the characters when back in time. I was too young to remember the letter from a Lionel distributor to its employees in the late 60’s. The letter is posted in Greenberg’s guide to Lionel Trains 1945-1969 volume III, sets; pages 162-163. O gauge did not die, it blossomed into what it is today. MPC and others were another stage in the American model train experience that keep us going forward even thou most product was made offshore.

I think it’s an opportune time for Lionel to have one or to starter sets that may have a box car that throws out the comparable like Baby Ruth boxes and a crane car that will pick up items and but it in a gondola. Even with a hand held remote kids will get bored. I think Lionel should set the prices at break even for the company for those one or two starter sets. No fancy road name gimmicks just tried and true road names. Maybe someone from Lionel will read this.

There is a lot of product out there now however the train market demographics is getting much older and as always, a company needs new customers to fill in the void.

 I believe if Lionel sits on this it will eventually come back to haunt them. Raising the prices on family style sets will not be good for their long-term bottom line.

On a totally different note, the eternal optimist in me would also requests a one-time run of outer rail Super O track in long lengths. I think you would be surprised about the pre order number.

Wishing the best for Mike in the following years of retirement. If someone picks up the whole or part of the business that would be great. Time will tell; like my father-in-law would say; don't panic. 

 Best regards to a brighter future for all, Rob W

@Railgon posted:

I did not read all 13 pages, but has anyone suggested an investment holding company might be a buyer, like what happened to Lionel?  Maybe try to leverage a good price, hoping to make profit along the way and then resell when the economy and hobby is in better shape.

What investment company would buy a 1950's era toy company , which had a successful run of 40 years . And now to put money in tooling that has been used and made the same cars over and over again . No doubt alot of good diesels and steam models , but brand new models of loco's and rolling stock is needed , in this case even a better looking modern roller brg truck . In effect new tooling , new designs . The biggest problem 3 rail trains has is these control systems , all different , unlike all other "scale" trains which uses DCC , NMRA standards so all work together .  Investment companies buying out a company to resell later ?

Maybe for 10 cents on the dollar , you make your profit on the purchase , not on the sale . Personally in this climate MTH tooling is obsolete , anybody who has any amount of trains has all they need of the old and if not just go online and buy for a whole lot cheaper in the secondary market , some stuff brand new never out of the box . HO company like Walthers , Athearn make runs on models and then they are done . Maybe 5 -10 yrs they might make a second run .Look at the high end pass car trains like UP , those go for 2 and 3 times the original price . 3 rail just floods the market and now it is so bloated of old tooling models you can hardly give it away . Just paint another name on it . 3 rail caters to old people who had Lionel trains as a kid in the 50's , a nostalgia , sorry to say 2 rail is the future , just like what is in real life . There is a whole wing of this forum dedicated to many many many ways to disguise or hide that center rail. New modelers  ask what is the extra rail for . Once the baby boomers get a few years older 3 rail will fade even further . There will always be 3 rail but no company is going to buy yesterdays news

Mike Wolf knows this all to well and at 65 or so who needs the hassle of this "cat fight" . HO  , N  , 2 rail O scale all use a common control and and each manufacturer makes different models , so they can all stay afloat . Not in 3 rail , Mike made his money , he saw a market , capitalized  for 40 yrs , now he is pulling the plug and enjoy life after all the effort . Congrats .

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

I hope rich and andy can carry the company forward. they do not seem young enough yet to retire. although they me be the ones getting the dcs part of the business. they may not have wanted the overseas factory part. with the current world climate who could blame them. we can only armchair speculate at this time though.

I finnaly now have the finances to buy preimer engines again. just got about 6 this last month. then I wake up to this news. still cant get my head around it. I just hope the new instock engines and more specifically  the roadnames and model types I want will be available when I am ready to buy them. I do buy lionel but right now mth has produced what I want and some models like there dash nines have better detail than lionel. 

I have also bought a fair amount of new in the box used ps3 and ps2 3volt engines of this forum and ebay witch were very good deals. most were half or a third off the new price. some were even hard to find road names I collect. 

I realize most people say that there was nothing new being produced by mth for several years and that maybe true, but for me at least reissues were fine as it allowed me to get the models I could not get the first time around and some with the new ps3 and leds in them. 

I also am glad that dcs is going to be carried on hopefully as I have a few engines I want ps3 in. 

So lets all wait,breath,take a step back and lets let the mth folks fill us in on the future of the company. lionel is ok and stronger than ever today and the name lives on. mth will live on too some how I feel or at least I hope it does.

I just wish whoever buys the company or the tooling for the models takes the same aproach as mike wolf did and keep the prices resonable. all my mth engines are workhorses and they pull tons. never had a board fail on its own yet. the only ones that failed were my dumb fault as I was learning to repair stuff. most mth engines were highly detailed and well built with out all the fancy gizmo tricks that lionel has. so for steamers that was fine with me. one main smoke unit to replace the wick in every now and then easy peasy. desiels were even easier to work on if needed.

I often said mth trains were for the working man. no 2,000 legacy in thier line. to me at least they were like HO on steroids. big,loud,hefty,full of detail and when I run them they just feel like the real thing. especially when viewed at track level. heck even there cruies control had me hooked the first time I got one. I will not to this day buy a locomotive with out it. thanks again mike. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LionelZWl2012, I like what you wrote here. I just hope that someone actually does buy it. I think it's great for the 3 rail guys that DCS will live on but I would like to see the rest of the company live on as a whole and not chopped up into several pieces among a bunch of different companies. This is just speculation on my part but I don't think MTH was in the red. I think they were making a profit. Maybe not as much as in the past but still making a profit.

Hey guys I had an idea. Here is a copy of an email I sent to Midge:

I've been writing this post in my head for 3 days straight now. I need to keep it short and concise, or the only one who will read it will be me.

The elephant in the room: our hobby (regardless of scale) is slowly dying as its membership ages out. O Scale/Gauge is dying the fastest, and this announcement poses the risk of becoming accelerant on the fire. 

How many of us are under 50? 40? 30? 20? Put another way, what are the odds that the number of O hobbyists over the age of 50 is greater than the number under 50? I'd say the odds are pretty good, and that's not good. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm 41.

I've heard the argument that it's a problem for the manufacturers to solve, and while I don't completely agree, MTH dropping out is a huge gut punch to any hope of O Scale/Gauge reversing its declining popularity. It's no secret that O is incredibly expensive when compared with other scales, and it is one of the reasons it struggles to attract folks under 40 who are raising families and building careers. While Lionel has done a good job of marketing itself to younger generations (Disney, Scooby, etc), I fear that most of those sales are grandfather purchases for grandchildren--I could be wrong, though. MTH, however, brought some unique key elements to the hobby that made it palatable to the 20 and 30-something crowd, and not just parents and grandparents. RailKing's price point is the obvious example here. 

MTH's out-of-the-box thinking on the European models, 2-rail and DCC support, and Tinplate are also great examples of a commitment to product line diversity that our hobby has enjoyed that may be a thing of the past. MTH's announcement that DCS will live on as a separate company comes as a huge relief. If DCS becomes licensable, that's a huge boon as well; imagine a world where you can order an engine from someone like Atlas or Williams with either TMCC or DCS, or pay a little extra for an engine that supports BOTH (as component sizes shrink). 

While I can ponder the possibilities of what will happen to the rest of MTH, none of what I've been able to brainstorm helps stem the bleeding of our hobby's membership, and that's what's haunting me.

The only thing that I can think of is for MTH to be reborn with a new generation of leadership tuned to attracting hobbyists aged 20-40. It's going to require, in large part, a re-thinking of what it means to make and sell O gauge to a millennial. Just having an iPhone app and/or bluetooth support isn't sufficient. Alexa/HomeKit/Google Home integration is a no-brainer nice-to-have. Augmented Reality likely needs to be involved here. Building an actual network of YouTube influencers is vital. Presence at CES is key to injecting product awareness into the "everyday consumer" space with major retail buyers. TCA will need to be guided on how to completely reinvent itself; I'm 41 and even I feel like an alien from another planet when it comes to interactions with TCA.

Could Lionel/Atlas/Williams do this on their own? Maybe, but it's not likely. Lionel needs a competitor like MTH in order to drive this innovation through competition. Apple wouldn't be what it is if Microsoft and Google hadn't been fighting it tooth and nail. Ford and Chevy made each other's success. Lionel needs an MTH competing head to head. focused on millennials if our hobby is going to survive the next 10-15 years.

Can MTH be reborn with employees carrying the torch? Maybe. I think that's the hope, because it's apparent that a whole-sale buyout is a fleeting possibility at this point. And even if the employees can pick up the torch, will they have a leader who seeds a vision for the markets that our hobby hasn't attracted in 30 years? Who knows.

Short of that, however, I suspect that this announcement could go down as one of the major watershed moments in the final decline of O Gauge. I really, really hope that I'm wrong, and I hesitated to write this post because I don't like being a Debbie Downer. But we need to force this conversation, and we need as many members under the age of 50 and 40 contributing to the conversation as much as possible.

I think Rafi makes some interesting points.

IMO, if Lionel, and possible MTH substitutes continue to make affordable LC, LC+ and Railking-like products, that will greatly help the O Gauge segment of our hobby.

Arnold

@Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

What investment company would buy a 1950's era toy company , which had a successful run of 40 years . And now to put money in tooling that has been used and made the same cars over and over again . No doubt alot of good diesels and steam models , but brand new models of loco's and rolling stock is needed , in this case even a better looking modern roller brg truck . In effect new tooling , new designs . The biggest problem 3 rail trains has is these control systems , all different , unlike all other "scale" trains which uses DCC , NMRA standards so all work together .  Investment companies buying out a company to resell later ?

Maybe for 10 cents on the dollar , you make your profit on the purchase , not on the sale . Personally in this climate MTH tooling is obsolete , anybody who has any amount of trains has all they need of the old and if not just go online and buy for a whole lot cheaper in the secondary market , some stuff brand new never out of the box . HO company like Walthers , Athearn make runs on models and then they are done . Maybe 5 -10 yrs they might make a second run .Look at the high end pass car trains like UP , those go for 2 and 3 times the original price . 3 rail just floods the market and now it is so bloated of old tooling models you can hardly give it away . Just paint another name on it . 3 rail caters to old people who had Lionel trains as a kid in the 50's , a nostalgia , sorry to say 2 rail is the future , just like what is in real life . There is a whole wing of this forum dedicated to many many many ways to disguise or hide that center rail. New modelers  ask what is the extra rail for . Once the baby boomers get a few years older 3 rail will fade even further . There will always be 3 rail but no company is going to buy yesterdays news

Mike Wolf knows this all to well and at 65 or so who needs the hassle of this "cat fight" . HO  , N  , 2 rail O scale all use a common control and and each manufacturer makes different models , so they can all stay afloat . Not in 3 rail , Mike made his money , he saw a market , capitalized  for 40 yrs , now he is pulling the plug and enjoy life after all the effort . Congrats .

With respect, a few problems I see here.  Source?  I worked in a major hobby shop for over 5 years.

1. MTH, Lionel, and especially Atlas O aren't only "old tooling".  There's been plenty of totally new items lately and plenty more planned, too.  O is a smaller market than HO, so naturally there's less capital investment, but there is still demand, no doubt.

2. MTH has already ensured DCC compatibility in their PS3 system.  So if DCC were the real deal breaker, well, it wouldn't be.

3. Let me tell you, if you want to see trains that are worthless once they're a few years old, look at HO.  Because there is so much innovation and competition in that branch of the hobby, yesterday's models are seriously "old news".  O gauge (especially Lionel) is the king of making too few of a model and then waiting a decade to remake it.  For instance, I've got a Lionel Southern PS-4 from 2006 that MSRP'd at $1,000 that I could easily sell on ebay for $700-800 today.  There are even plenty of desirable models going for far more than original MSRP.  This kind of resale value is unthinkable to HO guys.

4. Mike has already invested a ton into the HO hobby, to pretty great success.  If the O market is as completely bleak as you speculated, he would have simply dropped O gauge and turned the full attention of MTH to the HO end of the hobby.

5. If you saw how many O gauge train sets, Lionel and MTH, we sold to young families, especially around the holidays, you would have a lot more faith in the future of the hobby.  And if you saw how many even came back to get extra trains, track, scenery, accessories, etc., you'd have even more faith.  The hobby will shrink, but it won't die.  Lionel would not be making all of their recent tooling investments if there was no future.

No, I don't think we can blame ourselves or our end of the hobby for Mike's departure.  I think he just wants to retire, as he said!

"sorry to say 2 rail is the future , just like what is in real life "

Looks like someone is letting his personal views of 2 v 3 rail drive his analysis.  O is a scale that is dominated by 3 rail.  It will be for the foreseeable future.  Its a better bet that O beyond inexpensive start up sets will die out than it is that 2 rail will topple 3 rail among established O purchasers.  Are 3 railers stuck in a 1950s fantasy?  Perhaps, but its a fantasy that has driven the 1:48 world for decades.  Since the 1980s 2 railers and 3 railers in O have enjoyed a mutually beneficial marriage.  This was in part because of the work of Mike Wolf.

"MTH's out-of-the-box thinking on the European models, 2-rail and DCC support, and Tinplate are also great examples of a commitment to product line diversity that our hobby has enjoyed that may be a thing of the past."

Well said and it is one of the biggest reasons (at least to me) why losing MTH hits pretty hard. Yes I am an MTH fan but I do not hate Lionel like one other poster said earlier in this thread. I do like Lionel and have some of their rolling stock and two older locomotives. The thing with MTH is they gave me an option for 2 rail and DCC which I prefer and once MTH started adding the Kadee coupler pads in their rolling stock you didn't have to check a catalog to know that a certain piece of rolling stock had the Kadee coupler pad as long as it was the Premier Line. MTH gave me what I wanted in this hobby and they did it at a price that was within my budget.

To comment on the post by Rafi, above, another hobby undergoing the same generational shrinking is Amateur (Ham) Radio.  I am in that hobby too, and at the equivalent swap meets (hamfests) in that hobby, it is almost the exact same demographic (us old men!).   And on their discussion groups they have similar discussions about attracting younger members into the hobby.  In both cases, these hobbies do not enjoy the "mass" interest that they once did.  It is not the fault or responsibility of the manufacturers to "fix" this.  It can't be fixed, it's just the evolution of technology that young folks have a lot more options (toys) to play with these days,  so the slice of the pie for each hobby in play is significantly smaller. And with that comes an inevitable shake down of suppliers, and thinning of the herd. I don't see 'O' or any scale dying, but each will have its niche.  On the supply side, the nimble and resourceful suppliers will survive, but they must face a smaller customer base and no amount of "fixing" is going to bring back the masses.

Gary W8GEL

I have long been a fan of New England railroads.  MTH have produced many items in B&M, MEC, and NH liveries, which is why my collection is predominantly MTH.  I have had very few operational issues and have enjoyed my trains immensely.  I thank Mike Wolf for making us New England RR fans happy.  I am encouraged by the news that DCS will live on, evolve, and continue to be supported by some of Mike's knowledgeable staff.  Thanks again, Mike.  Without you, myself and many others would not be in the O gauge hobby today.  

A lot of hopeful speculation in this discussion in regards to the future of the assets of MTH, and I can't blame people for being hopeful.  I believe that Mike was looking for a buyer and could not find one.  I believe MTH as a brand will be gone with the delivery of the last item in the current catalog.

I'm a big fan of MTH's products and I'm sorry to see them go.  I also feel that there is a glut of unsold product (last time I was at York there were literally pallets of rolling stock with $15 price tags) and I am pretty content with the small amount that I have.  There are a few more items that I will probably acquire.

@Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

What investment company would buy a 1950's era toy company , which had a successful run of 40 years . And now to put money in tooling that has been used and made the same cars over and over again . No doubt alot of good diesels and steam models , but brand new models of loco's and rolling stock is needed , in this case even a better looking modern roller brg truck . In effect new tooling , new designs . The biggest problem 3 rail trains has is these control systems , all different , unlike all other "scale" trains which uses DCC , NMRA standards so all work together .  Investment companies buying out a company to resell later ?

Maybe for 10 cents on the dollar , you make your profit on the purchase , not on the sale . Personally in this climate MTH tooling is obsolete , anybody who has any amount of trains has all they need of the old and if not just go online and buy for a whole lot cheaper in the secondary market , some stuff brand new never out of the box . HO company like Walthers , Athearn make runs on models and then they are done . Maybe 5 -10 yrs they might make a second run .Look at the high end pass car trains like UP , those go for 2 and 3 times the original price . 3 rail just floods the market and now it is so bloated of old tooling models you can hardly give it away . Just paint another name on it . 3 rail caters to old people who had Lionel trains as a kid in the 50's , a nostalgia , sorry to say 2 rail is the future , just like what is in real life . There is a whole wing of this forum dedicated to many many many ways to disguise or hide that center rail. New modelers  ask what is the extra rail for . Once the baby boomers get a few years older 3 rail will fade even further . There will always be 3 rail but no company is going to buy yesterdays news

Mike Wolf knows this all to well and at 65 or so who needs the hassle of this "cat fight" . HO  , N  , 2 rail O scale all use a common control and and each manufacturer makes different models , so they can all stay afloat . Not in 3 rail , Mike made his money , he saw a market , capitalized  for 40 yrs , now he is pulling the plug and enjoy life after all the effort . Congrats .

I am not aware that there is any evidence to support your statement that "2 rail is the future", at least in O gauge. Do you have any, or is that just your opinion?

Pat

Congratulations Mike on your retirement best wishes. Thank you for the many MA & PA items over years we treasure so much and with out you we wouldn't have had them. 

@irish rifle posted:

I am not aware that there is any evidence to support your statement that "2 rail is the future", at least in O gauge. Do you have any, or is that just your opinion?

Pat

Clearly an opinion, however I've never seen that opinion in wide circulation.  I love the look of 2-rail, but I love the convenience of 3-rail.  Anyone contemplating 2-rail O-scale needs a pretty sizeable space for a layout, how many 4x8 2-rail layouts do you see.

There's room for both in the hobby, and deriding the largest segment of the O-gauge community is hardly productive.

2 rail certainly is the future.................

In HO, N, Z, TT, G, Live Steam, etc.

It's a good option in O but I can't see 3 rail disappearing. 

To quote Hank William's Jr, not matter what happens in all of this "America will survive".  Even if I gave up trains, there's no shortage of hobbies I am interested in.  In fact, I have that issue now, too many interests, too little time and money for it all.

I would wander if , well, I guess it might have to be Lionel, at least for now, make a three-rail track where the middle rail is done like the Marklin "3-rail" HO track? I am a three railer, have been all my life and sometimes I have thought about a layout that combined two rail and three rail, all using code 148 rail so they match. With all the emphasis on so much realism, even with our die-cast models which are incredible, the next step (and MTH has already been doing some of it on some models) would be to offer the model with scale flanges. A scale Big Boy with scale flanges could (with some slight modifications under the front steam chests for the pilot wheels, could operate on 072.  It's outer axle distance on each engine is not greater than the outer axle distance  on the 700E Hudson, and the Allegheny and Challenger is actually smaller, implying even sharper curves. Maybe it would be time to offer such models with a recommended diameter of 082, or 096, who knows. 072 has been the 3-rail standard for so long now, since 1936, 37. The old 700E with every wheel flanged will take 054 and do so comfortably, anything tighter - nope.  The appearance of scale flanges does enhance the model to my eye. 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Clearly an opinion, however I've never seen that opinion in wide circulation.  I love the look of 2-rail, but I love the convenience of 3-rail.  Anyone contemplating 2-rail O-scale needs a pretty sizeable space for a layout, how many 4x8 2-rail layouts do you see.

There's room for both in the hobby, and deriding the largest segment of the O-gauge community is hardly productive.

"...Atlas O aren't only "old tooling".  There's been plenty of totally new items lately and plenty more planned, too"

?????

-Crank

@Gary Liebisch posted:

To comment on the post by Rafi, above, another hobby undergoing the same generational shrinking is Amateur (Ham) Radio.  I am in that hobby too, and at the equivalent swap meets (hamfests) in that hobby, it is almost the exact same demographic (us old men!).   And on their discussion groups they have similar discussions about attracting younger members into the hobby.  In both cases, these hobbies do not enjoy the "mass" interest that they once did.  It is not the fault or responsibility of the manufacturers to "fix" this.  It can't be fixed, it's just the evolution of technology that young folks have a lot more options (toys) to play with these days,  so the slice of the pie for each hobby in play is significantly smaller. And with that comes an inevitable shake down of suppliers, and thinning of the herd. I don't see 'O' or any scale dying, but each will have its niche.  On the supply side, the nimble and resourceful suppliers will survive, but they must face a smaller customer base and no amount of "fixing" is going to bring back the masses.

Gary W8GEL

In Harris County, TX, there is intetest in Ham Radio supporting emergency communications.  I live in a flood and hurricane zone...

Then again, how many older children have been exposed to scanners, CB, or HF/shortwave radios?

Same for trains....

Children today are not being exposed to some sort of "makers" environment.  How many children today have been exposed to blocks, Legos, Tinker Toys, Lincoln Logs, Tonka Toys, dollhouse.....?  Parents put thete children in front of an idiot box, and stifle any creative juices.  The children do not get a chance to figure things out...

.

With all the well wishes to Mike Wolf and his retirement and success over the years , why not a group of the forum members pony up and buy the company . I was informed once by the sponsor dept. of the forum  that there are some deep pockets on this OGR Forum , problem solved , keep the staff in place and the O gauge train world gets to keep the spirit alive of MTH . He certainly brought about 3 rail scale trains , it would only be fitting for forum members pool their resources for the cash infusion side and you have the existing staff to run it . Like a co-operative , you can vote on what gets made , what features , how much it should sell for , maybe turn it into a 501C3  , a non profit , there you have it ,problem solved . Easy  peasey

Deriding the largest segment of the O scale community might not be productive, but acknowledging the massive problem that confronts the O scale market seems to be fair game, because reality has a bad habit of being in existence, whether we like it or not. O scale history is what it is, but going forward the 2R/3R-scale/tinplate-control system divisions are factors that contribute to making a company like MTH difficult to impossible to sell.

Jeff C

@Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

With all the well wishes to Mike Wolf and his retirement and success over the years , why not a group of the forum members pony up and buy the company . I was informed once by the sponsor dept. of the forum  that there are some deep pockets on this OGR Forum , problem solved , keep the staff in place and the O gauge train world gets to keep the spirit alive of MTH . He certainly brought about 3 rail scale trains , it would only be fitting for forum members pool their resources for the cash infusion side and you have the existing staff to run it . Like a co-operative , you can vote on what gets made , what features , how much it should sell for , maybe turn it into a 501C3  , a non profit , there you have it ,problem solved . Easy  peasey

How much should we put you down for?

I have been thinking the speculation about Mike's decision and the short term future of MTH has become redundant and no longer productive.  My opinion isn't intended as a criticism of any of the many sincere, thoughtful and interesting posts I've read in this thread.  A love of trains, respect for MTH and concern for the future of the hobby are things we all have in common.

I would like to suggest we curtail the speculation and report facts when they become available.  Your thoughts are welcome.

John

@Steam Crazy posted:

I would like to suggest we curtail the speculation and report facts when they become available. 

Spoil sport.

Wow, I've read a lot of great comments on this subject. My take away is that we should not panic. I remember the 1970's when MPC bought the old Lionel company and the then die hard Lionel collectors always categorized MPC as cheap, flimsy and not worth much, a stigma which still hangs around today. I really first took notice in 1978 when MPC re-introduced the FM diesel. It's quality matched pound for pound the original 1950's models. Sheet metal frame (which was actually a cheaper short cut by the old Lionel company) vs. a diecast frame and even the famed magna-traction (Which I kinda wish they'd put on these heavy, new models instead of these annoying rubber tires.) Or just leave them off all together like the two-rail models. they're heavy, heavier by far than the old Lionel stuff, they don't need rubber tires. Anyways, just a marketing thought there.  I envy Mike for his success, I remember him being a teenager at York and now he is retiring as a multi-millionaire. Like someone said, he saw a market, filled it before anyone else could and now it is time to get out. The 3-rail O scale/gauge market has been saturated with re-issued models. When Lionel came out with their first Allegheny in 1999 or 2000, they came out with it again in 2006 but they did change it up quite a bit. It's funny, their first one was actually prototypically pretty accurate - early number, no overfire jets. When they did it again a a JLC model, they marketed and advertised the tooling changes to make it accurate to the prototype by it being a 'late Allegheny' model with over fire jets and they were correct. They should have paid attention to that with their Legacy model, but they kinda dropped the ball. We've been hit with too much too soon, as thought the tech people have free range and every time they come up with a new idea, they hit us again with an engine we just bought maybe 6-8 years ago. These models are expensive, don't do that to your market base (us). Give us time to enjoy what we've purchased. As these sometimes annoying electronics go, why don't they make a model with the electronics but purposefully build it for easy future upgrades? Like a cruise control board upgrade which anyone could change out.  Back around 2000, I was amazed that Lionel would offer TMCC freely to all other manufacurers, proposing to unify the 3-rail O gauge/scale market, like DCC does with HO, N and 2-rail O.  MTH did the next best thing. Rather than joining in and every one use TMCC, they did their own system and made it (eventually) compatible with TMCC. Legacy, not quite as much. Lionel does need to give Altas and 3rd rail Legacy.  I am going to miss MTH but this could actually be a good thing, just concerned about service and repairs on models we already have. They are worth proper care. When DCS would fail, could we get it repaired? Not all of us are electronic engineers or technicians. Or would we substitute it with Legacy?  I read one post on here a while back that said he buys these high end models at low prices at auctions and ebay and he frequently guts them and puts in a simple electronic e-unit and operates them they way the old 2-rail scale guys did 50 years ago, silent. No smoke, no bells and whistles, nothing, just a highly detailed model running around the track with lights. Simplicity, maybe he's onto something there. Anyways, big changes coming. Maybe Lionel should at least buy the DCS rights and maybe incorporate it into the Legacy eventually becoming one system. Is that possible? Might be.

@Bob posted:

Spoil sport.

Thanks for injecting some good humor and sarcasm, speaking of good humor, I have a hankering for ice cream now.

Bottom line here ...only time will tell....stay tuned and fasten you seat belt     

@breezinup posted:

MW's insistence on having his own proprietary operating system is the single worst enemy of continuity for MTH engines. If they'd used a Lionel operating system, they'd have some life. 

I think this is a completely unfounded claim.  In fact they went out of their way to support running both MTH and Lionel TMCC engines on the same track from one remote, I think this was by far a more competitive and friendly solution.  

Lionel charged a lot of money for a technology that was essentially just a remote control car.

I hope Mr. Wolf enjoys his retirement.  Congrats to him, as we all deserve a break after slogging through the work day for 40+ years, and my guess is that he probably put in A LOT more than a 40 hr week.  MTH will be extremely missed by many, including me. 

As an owner of probably 90% MTH equipment, I will say that I'm less concerned about what this means for MTH collectors/operators and more what it means for the O gauge 3 rail industry.  I don't have first hand knowledge of what the market looks like, but from my standpoint as a consumer MTH seems like it was a LARGE percentage of it.  Lionel benefited from having MTH around (as do the other O gauge companies).  They all benefit from each other The more competitors their are, the healthier the market is, and the more choices for us consumers!  That is the American way.

I'll admit right up front that I have NOT bothered to read the whole 13 pages of comments. That said, I would personally like to thank Mike Wolf and his organization, for standing up to the bullying by the Union Pacific's Chairman & CEO Dick Davidson, over the licensing fees for use of ANY UP railroad name & logo, including all those of previous RRs merged into UP. No other company, no matter what scale, was willing to stand up to the lunacy of what the Union Pacific was attempting. I can remember the many articles in trade publications, especially the Wall Street Journal expounding on how the UP was unable to properly manage & operate their RR after the merger with SP, yet the UP could spend resources on bullying the entire model railroad industry. Only after Mr. Davidson retired, and the late Jim Evans took over as Chairman & CEO, was a direct order issued to VP Law, Turner to, "Put a stop to the nonsense, and get us out of this ridiculous litigation!".

The UP lost, in court, two other suits, that were kept pretty quiet. But it was Mike Wolf and MTH Electric Trains, that finally put a stop to the lunacy by the Union Pacific RR., and pretty much saved the entire model railroad industry. I was fairly close to the internal goings-on at the UP, and how it affected all the logos on the apparel worn & sold by the UP Steam Crew at the time.

A personal thank you to Mike and his entire staff!!!