Adding a Metal Bushing to Worn PW Motor Brushplates

Nice repair, sounds nice & smooth! …..is the “repair” bearing splined to grip the brush plate?……..I make my own repair bearing that’s shouldered and locks into the brush plate. Then I permanently lock it in place with a soldered ring. …….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Nice repair, sounds nice & smooth! …..is the “repair” bearing splined to grip the brush plate?……..I make my own repair bearing that’s shouldered and locks into the brush plate. Then I permanently lock it in place with a soldered ring. …….

Pat

Like to see some photos of that or video of your repair. Mark

@Bill Swatos posted:

For anyone dealing with a worn brushplate "bearing" in a PW Steamer, here's a method for installing a metal bushing that has worked phenomenally well for me.

1.  Order “8801-77 brushplate bearing” from Train Tender at jeff@ttender.com. Get several, they're cheap and you'll want to do this for ALL your PW steamers.

2. Drill out the original hole in the brushplate using the following twist drills: 9/64, 5/32, 11/16, 3/8, 13/64. Each drill should each be used in increasing order to gradually increase brushplate hole diameter while keeping its original center. I turn the drills carefully by hand since the polyamide "fiberboard" of the brushplate is quite soft. The 13/64 drill will give a snug press fit for the bushing into the brushplate.

3. Press the bushing into the brushplate. Make sure the "shoulder" of the bushing is seated against the back side of the brushplate. For final alignment of the bushing in the brushplate, assemble the armature and brushplate  without brushes into the motor and then rotate and slide the armature back and forth several times until it slides back and forth and spins freely.

4. To "lock in" the bushing, carefully apply a tiny drop of liquid, not gel, CA adhesive at the point where the bushing is inserted into the brushplate. I use a hat pin to get precise adhesive placement. Make sure the adhesive "wicks" all the way around the base of the bushing. Let the adhesive cure for a few minutes.

5. Finally, remove the brushplate and apply a tiny drop of CA to the "shoulder" of the bushing where it contacts the back side of the brushplate, again making sure the adhesive wicks all the way around the bushing shoulder where it contacts the brushplate.

Let everything cure up for a couple of hours and you're good to go.

I first did this for a 1960-61 027 2037 Adriatic that wouldn't even run until 15V when I got her from the auction site. As the video shows, now she pulls 29 027 cars plus PW caboose at only 10V:

I did add shims to the wheelsets and connecting rods to further reduce driveline friction, but the bushing replacement gave the most improvement.

I've since done this for a 2037 Adriatic "motor" I use for track cleaning, the whistle motor in a 671W tender and to replace a cracked bronze bushing in one of the motors in my 2340 GG-1.

No job Bill have a couple brushplates will have to try that with, well done Mark

@harmonyards posted:

Nice repair, sounds nice & smooth! …..is the “repair” bearing splined to grip the brush plate?……..I make my own repair bearing that’s shouldered and locks into the brush plate. Then I permanently lock it in place with a soldered ring. …….

Pat

The bearings from Jeff at Train Tender are smooth around the OD, Pat. That's why I use the CA to anchor them. I do wish I had the fabrication facility you have, though

Is that 9/64, 5/32, 11/64, 3/16, 13/64?   

2. Drill out the original hole in the brushplate using the following twist drills: 9/64, 5/32, 11/16, 3/8, 13/64. Each drill should each be used in...

@Bill Swatos posted:

The bearings from Jeff at Train Tender are smooth around the OD, Pat. That's why I use the CA to anchor them. I do wish I had the fabrication facility you have, though

Nothing wrong with your repair, ….I tend to over engineer it,….I like your easier solution!….nice work!!…

Pat

@VHubbard posted:

Is that 9/64, 5/32, 11/64, 3/16, 13/64?   

Yes, I copied and pasted the wrong text out of Word. Sorry for any confusion. Start at 9/64" moving up at 1/64" increments to 13/64". I got a "1-man" engineering dept. with no reviewer Fixed it in original post.

@Bill Swatos posted:

I got a "1-man" engineering dept. with no reviewer

I know the feeling, i average 3  tries to get the typos out of a new web page.    And I love the edit button on posts.

A hole in the fiber board for a bearing has always puzzled me.  When compared to the care to use locator pins and bushings in the same motors.    In later PW whistle brush plates a brass bushing was used.    I have often use these brass bushing brush plates to fix a PW whistle.

I have an old article somewhere where the author used brake lining shoe rivets as bushings. I wonder how many auto parts store still carry those these days... 

Bill,

Installed a 8801-77 Brush Plate Bearing in a PW 2037.  When the brush plate was reattached to the motor the fit was tight and would not allow the amateur to rotate.  I removed a metal washer on the amateur shaft that fit against the bearing and that allowed enough space for the amateur to rotate.  Did you have this experience when you upgraded your 2037's?  Full disclosure, I received the 2037 used so a prior owner may have added the washer.  In checking a Lionel original parts diagram, it shows a washer on the amateur shaft.

Did you have to remove a washer on your 2037 install.  BTW, the 2037 runs much better with the installed bearing minus a washer.

Tom

@TomNe posted:

Bill,

Installed a 8801-77 Brush Plate Bearing in a PW 2037.  When the brush plate was reattached to the motor the fit was tight and would not allow the amateur to rotate.  I removed a metal washer on the amateur shaft that fit against the bearing and that allowed enough space for the amateur to rotate.  Did you have this experience when you upgraded your 2037's?  Full disclosure, I received the 2037 used so a prior owner may have added the washer.  In checking a Lionel original parts diagram, it shows a washer on the amateur shaft.

Did you have to remove a washer on your 2037 install.  BTW, the 2037 runs much better with the installed bearing minus a washer.

Tom

Yes, Tom, I did remove the fiber washer. Since there is no side-to-side thrust on this type of motor, the brush spring tension is sufficient to keep the armature forward in the motor. I forgot to mention that. I have added it to my original post.

@Bill Swatos posted:

For anyone dealing with a worn brushplate "bearing" in a PW Steamer, here's a method for installing a metal bushing that has worked phenomenally well for me.

1.  Order “8801-77 brushplate bearing” from Train Tender at jeff@ttender.com. Get several, they're cheap and you'll want to do this for ALL your PW steamers.

2. Drill out the original hole in the brushplate using the following twist drills: 9/64, 5/32, 11/64, 3/16, 13/64. Each drill should each be used in increasing order to gradually increase brushplate hole diameter while keeping its original center. I turn the drills carefully by hand since the polyamide "fiberboard" of the brushplate is quite soft. The 13/64 drill will give a snug press fit for the bushing into the brushplate.

3. Press the bushing into the brushplate. Make sure the "shoulder" of the bushing is seated against the back side of the brushplate. For final alignment of the bushing in the brushplate, assemble the armature and brushplate  without brushes into the motor and then rotate and slide the armature back and forth several times until it slides back and forth and spins freely.

4. To "lock in" the bushing, carefully apply a tiny drop of liquid, not gel, CA adhesive at the point where the bushing is inserted into the brushplate. I use a hat pin to get precise adhesive placement. Make sure the adhesive "wicks" all the way around the base of the bushing. Let the adhesive cure for a few minutes.

5. Finally, remove the brushplate and apply a tiny drop of CA to the "shoulder" of the bushing where it contacts the back side of the brushplate, again making sure the adhesive wicks all the way around the bushing shoulder where it contacts the brushplate.

Let everything cure up for a couple of hours and you're good to go.

I first did this for a 1960-61 027 2037 Adriatic that wouldn't even run until 15V when I got her from the auction site. As the video shows, now she pulls 29 027 cars plus PW caboose at only 10V:

I did add shims to the wheelsets and connecting rods to further reduce driveline friction, but the bushing replacement gave the most improvement.

I've since done this for a 2037 Adriatic "motor" I use for track cleaning, the whistle motor in a 671W tender and to replace a cracked bronze bushing in one of the motors in my 2340 GG-1.

My only caution would be the CA added to lock it all in. The temp for CA to start to de bond is low 200 degrees. Some glues it’s even lower, that would be my only caution. In clock repair we press bushings in and they expand locking them in, the machine I use for bushing work on clocks/trains is a modified Burgeon bushing press.

other than that a job well done

@Bill Swatos

Thanks for replying, feel better knowing I made the right decision, and no harm will come to the engine.

Tom

@ThatGuy posted:

My only caution would be the CA added to lock it all in. The temp for CA to start to de bond is low 200 degrees. Some glues it’s even lower, that would be my only caution. In clock repair we press bushings in and they expand locking them in, the machine I use for bushing work on clocks/trains is a modified Burgeon bushing press.

other than that a job well done

Agreed, though the Tg (softening point) of poly(cyanoacrylate) is somewhat higher than 200 F, ranging from 285 F to 300 F and, with time, polyCA transitions to a semi-crystalline state, evidenced by whitening, with an even higher softening point. More importantly, the reduction in internal friction and better brush-to-armature alignment from the bearing reduces operating temperature considerably since you can run big trains at much lower voltage. I have not had any trouble with the bearing loosening on my Adriatic which ran REALLY hot with no load before the upgrade.

@TomNe posted:

@Bill Swatos

Thanks for replying, feel better knowing I made the right decision, and no harm will come to the engine.

Tom

Tom, your commutator will end up looking like this:

And you won't smell ozone anymore...

@Bill Swatos

Thanks for the picture. Question, what happened to the Ozone smell?

As mentioned before the bearing did make an improvement in the operation of the 2037.

FYI, ordered my bearings from Trainz, checked now and they are sold out of the 8801-77 bearing.  Looks like others are taking your cue and updating 2037 type engines.

Tom

@Bill Swatos posted:

Agreed, though the Tg (softening point) of poly(cyanoacrylate) is somewhat higher than 200 F, ranging from 285 F to 300 F and, with time, polyCA transitions to a semi-crystalline state, evidenced by whitening, with an even higher softening point. More importantly, the reduction in internal friction and better brush-to-armature alignment from the bearing reduces operating temperature considerably since you can run big trains at much lower voltage. I have not had any trouble with the bearing loosening on my Adriatic which ran REALLY hot with no load before the upgrade.

Hi Bill,

While correct ton the initial temp range, many years ago I was involved with a project while working at DOTBOBNYC with repairing a large limit switch. The switch was exposed to high heat over 200 F . We contacted LOCTITE and the doc sheet that was sent had one interesting addendum. While the temp range we needed was within the spec, the range changed with the heating and cooling cycles and was surprised by the  drop of overall of adhesion. LOCTITE specified not to be used over 200 degrees even thought the glue is specified to hold to 285 this will drop to 200 or slightly below after 100+ duty cycles. To be frank if the engine is getting above 200 degrees something else will be failing.

On the other hand if it has worked and the repair stays put........then its fixed. still a great repair!

Thanks for the back and forth........always something to learn.

@TomNe posted:

@Bill Swatos

Thanks for the picture. Question, what happened to the Ozone smell?

As mentioned before the bearing did make an improvement in the operation of the 2037.

FYI, ordered my bearings from Trainz, checked now and they are sold out of the 8801-77 bearing.  Looks like others are taking your cue and updating 2037 type engines.

Tom

Tom, since the rear of the armature is being held very securely with no precessional wobble, the brushes ride almost perfectly perpendicular to the commutator and their "track" around the commutator is nearly perfectly circular once they "run in." That results in much less sparking which makes ozone and burns down the brushes. You also can apply lubricant much more sparingly which results in less getting on the brushes and commutator and forming "varnish" which also contributes to "that motor smell."

FYI, since nearly all Lionel universal motors have the same armature shaft diameter of 1/8", you can use this technique on a wide range of PW locomotives, motorized units, and tender whistle motors that do not have this rear bearing, or have an "oilite" bronze bearing that has cracked. These solid bearings are much more durable and if you work the oil-retaining felt around them after replacement, they stay lubricated as well as the original "oilite" ones do.

@ThatGuy posted:

Hi Bill,

While correct ton the initial temp range, many years ago I was involved with a project while working at DOTBOBNYC with repairing a large limit switch. The switch was exposed to high heat over 200 F . We contacted LOCTITE and the doc sheet that was sent had one interesting addendum. While the temp range we needed was within the spec, the range changed with the heating and cooling cycles and was surprised by the  drop of overall of adhesion. LOCTITE specified not to be used over 200 degrees even thought the glue is specified to hold to 285 this will drop to 200 or slightly below after 100+ duty cycles. To be frank if the engine is getting above 200 degrees something else will be failing.

On the other hand if it has worked and the repair stays put........then its fixed. still a great repair!

Thanks for the back and forth........always something to learn.

Point well taken! I didn't think about the difference between cohesive bond failure vs adhesive bond failure, especially when thermal cycling and "hoop stress" are involved. Perhaps red LocTite might be a better choice than CA with initial gentle "hair dryer" heating and overnight curing, being sure to "dab" away any uncured adhesive before motor reassembly.

I love that this hobby involves consideration of so many scientific and engineering concepts!

If you guys are discussing using loctite thread lockers, ( red or blue) or shaft retainers (green) …..I can’t see where any of these products would work. Thread lockers are just that, their performance works when threads squish together, and then an absence of oxygen makes the liquid solidify and lock up. They only work with metal fasteners in a metal threaded hole. Same principle applies to shaft lock, and sleeve retainers. When pressure is applied to a press fit, then an absence of oxygen, the retaining compound then locks up. Again, these products are for metal to metal fits, not plastics, and definitely won’t work on impregnated fiber board. If Bill’s fix is holding fine with super glue, then what’s all the fuss about? …..if it’s working, it’s working, ……

Pat

@Bill Swatos

Thanks for the explanation of the ozone smell.

Tom

@Bill Swatos posted:

Point well taken! I didn't think about the difference between cohesive bond failure vs adhesive bond failure, especially when thermal cycling and "hoop stress" are involved. Perhaps red LocTite might be a better choice than CA with initial gentle "hair dryer" heating and overnight curing, being sure to "dab" away any uncured adhesive before motor reassembly.

I love that this hobby involves consideration of so many scientific and engineering concepts!

Right on Bill!! Kids today and parents as well, have no idea or maybe they do not want to the science/electrical/physics that are in play. So much can be learned/taught. I know with my dad at my side it was the first taste on how all of the above work in the real world.

A tip of my hat to dad, who started this all and gave me the firm foundation that I built my life on. I miss very much.