Cruise Commander and Dual Motors

Yes.  There are certain motors that don't work well with the Cruise Commander.  I installed one in an RMT RDC unit and it ran like a bucking bronco!  I replaced it and got the same result.  Both of the units worked fine in other applications.

Jon Z. at Lionel has confirmed there are is a small subset of the motor types that don't work well (or at all) with the Cruise Commander.

Gunney, does this mean that we would be better off going with PS-2 for upgrades, enlieu of ERR TMCC? I understand from many, who say the best all around command control upgrade is the MTH PS-2/3.

Then I've heard that ERR sounds systems are much.much better than MTH! I guess it's like buying  Ford or GM, which ever you prefer as they all have limitations-n-flaws.... 

The K-Line Interurbans have their motors in the trucks.  There is no fly wheel or anywhere to mount the tach sensor

GRJ,

Good info, well timed!

I got a few of the new CC lite modules and an RMT RDC was going to be one of my first attempts at a TMCC install.  I'm guessing that if it doesn't work with the CC, it won't work with the CC Lite either ?

Ed

Did Jon, say what the characteristic's were that didn't work well? Pole count, winding resistance, magnate type?  Not much more that can be different. 

PS-2 is a full integrated upgrade with synchronized smoke and sounds without external parts or boards.   Lionel sounds are considered to be better by some/many.  PS-2 has the flexibility of loading different sounds.  PS-2 uses direct speed measurement, but this requires a flywheel, ERR uses back EMF.   G

I have a CC Lite arriving next week and was planning on installing in a RMT S4 "Bang" Diesel - any feedback on how well that works?

Alan

Actually, I was installing a CC-Lite in the RDC, but when I contact Jon, he confirmed that the CC would be the same, and when I dropped one in for a test, he was 100% correct, same symptoms!

He was not explicit on what causes the issue, but just noted that there are a handful of specific motor models that don't work well, or at all, with the cruise technology.  I think he's busy enough that I'm just going to leave it at that and not press the issue.  The RDC does run with the Mini Commander 2, so that's what it got, just had to give up the cruise function.

I have no problems with the BEEP, but the BANG I have has a Mini Commander 2 in it as well.  At some point, I am going to try the CC-Lite in it, but until then...

The interesting thing is, my K-Line Interurban works fine with the CC-Lite.  I did cook one, but that was due to stalling on a switch and obviously drawing excessive current, that could happen to any installation.  That experience is what sent me down the trail of testing PTC's in the motor leads.  Next install I'm going to try them in the power pickups.  Jon Z. recommended them in both motor leads for balance if I continue to put them there.

I don't think its a certain make or model motors that have a problem with the cruise boards. I believe it could be sloppy tolerances of motors and gears. I have upgraded K-Line and Lionel engines that have the horizontal motors in the trucks and for the most part they are smooth runners and a few that have problems. Sometimes around speed step three or four they will smooth out. Also if they new engines they might smooth out after they have had a few hours run time.

Bill

Bill, I never tried "breaking them in" when I had trouble, but it's an interesting idea.  My experience was they'd run fine fast, but not anything slow.

This unit ran smoothly before I put cruise commander in it.  If I turn off speed control from my CAB-1 it runs smoothly.  It only runs in a jerky fashion if I turn on speed control so gears can't be the issue.

The motors that "Cog" when moved by hand don't work with any type of cruise system.  These motors can be identified by rotating the wheels on the loco and feeling the motor/drive train "ratchet".  This mechanical characteristic will cause any cruise system to over-react, or oscillate, trying to overcome the uneven rotational motion.

These motors are not very common, and usually are of low cost construction.

If I remember correctly from my train repair shop days, aren't the motors in the K-Line Interurban, the RMT RDC and many of Lionel engines with truck mounted motors three pole motors?  Most of the China drive engines have 5 pole motors.  It seems like the units with three pole motors are not compatible with ERR cruise control. 

Thanks Jon.  Good info.

Bob, The Mabuchi style ending in 5 are 5 pole.  365, 385, 555.  Those in 0 are 3 pole 540, 550, etc...  G

Great info Jon, thanks for that!  That will assist in identifying potential problem candidates.

George, thanks for the info on identifiers for can motors.  Will be helpful.

I was thinking of installing a CC Lite in my Lionel 0-4-0 with a can motor.  I am assuming by Jon's explanation that the cruise wouldn't work on this locomotive either.  Would the mini commander be to small (2 amps) for this engine?  This is why I was going to install the CC Lite (4 amps).  I don't imagine the cruise feature would be very useful on a yard switcher anyway.

Don't assume because a motor has only three poles that it will not work. It appears all of the flat can motors that Mabuchi makes have 3 poles. The Lionel starter set engines use a FK280 type motor yet Jon uses one of these engines in his installation manual for the Cruise Lite. I assume if it didn't work it would not have been included in the manual.

A starter set motor is pictured on the left.

Pete

Correct, and that runs like a top with the Cruise Commander Lite. 

As John indicated, this loco will work great. 

Folks, Don't assume 3 poles or 5 poles are the way to determine compatibility!  Spin the wheels or motor by hand, if it moves smoothly the cruise systems will work.

This is the three pole motor I was making reference to.  It is usually mounted in a way where it is incorporated with a spur gear arrangement such as starter set diesels, 0-4-0 switchers, starter set Vulcan engines and some early K-Line Scale diesels.  I have also included a picture representative of the 0-4-0 switcher motor body I'm going to convert to CC Lite.  CC Lite will be located in the tender.  Smoke unit will probably be disconnected as I'm afraid a constant 18 volts would burn it up.

Stupid question Jon.  What in the motor's construction determines if it's going to "cog" or not.

Bob, I put an earlier version of ERR's mini cruise in the 0-4-0 below. At first it was not very smooth but I attributed that to a poor drive train. I think they have plastic spur gears, no? Anyway, after running it awhile it got much better. Not as smooth as the bigger engines at startup but once going seemed to run at a steady pace. Worth a try, at the introductory price its hard to go wrong and if it doesn't work I am sure you will find another place for it.

Pete

Thank you for the picture Pete.  That's exactly the engine I'm installing the CC Lite into except mine is NYC.  I'm assuming you installed the CC Lite in the tender and used the existing tether.  Did you disconnect the smoke unit?

Bob, The board I used had cruise from ERR but predates the current Cruise Lite. I forgot what Jon called it but it hasn't been made for a few years. I am assuming the cruise algorithm is essentially the same though. I kept the smoke unit but may have changed the resistor. If yours measures 27-28 ohms it should be OK at 18 volts. I made my own tether. I replaced the tender trucks with Post War Coil couplers which work fine. I sold it to a friend who prefers NYC and he swapped the tender shell for NYC.

Here are some pics of the tender. The sound board is a NLA Sound Commander. The new boards are about the same size, maybe smaller and should fit. I added weights too but had to use a flat speaker from Williams due to space. Here are a few pics.

Pete

I believe it is the rotor commutator construction combined with style of brush.  You can feel it on some motors.  Has to be the brush catching between segments, only other potential could be magnet construction.

Also, Mabuchi japan has a wonderful site with all sorts of basic and intermediate motor theory.  Even talks about the Flux Yoke....the metallic shield.  Also has good explanation on brush noise.  The thing that keeps eating up Lionel smoke fan motors...  G

Thanks again Pete.  Great pictures showing board orientation.  I'm going to use the trucks that came with the tender.  I believe they are die-cast modular with plastic wheel bearing inserts.  I will install Kadee couplers on both ends.  I am assuming you drilled holes in the tender floor where the speaker is located to allow for sound dispersement.  Thanks for the resistance on the smoke unit.  I will check the resistance of mine.

Your welcome Bob. I used those trucks for the coil couplers plus I wanted it to look closer to a PW 1665. The ones that came with that engine probably roll better. If you use Kadees you might be able to use the original tether. I needed 6 wires, 2 for the motor, 2 for the headlight, and 2 for the front coupler.

Pete

I'm guessing it's the magnets and the design of the armature.  If it were the brushes catching, I'd think wear would render the motor useless within a very short time.

I believe it is the placement of the magnets relative to the armature.  The lower cost motors save on magnet material, and I believe that creates a gap in the field that causes an armature pole to get "stuck" between the magnets. 

I surmised this from taking apart the motors and inspecting them, but I may be wrong about the actual physics of the "COG" effect.

my 2 cents!

Thanks Jon, that makes the most sense.  It has to be something about the relationship of the magnets to the armature I would think.

Which does get back to 3 poles potentially being an offender more than the 5 pole.

What is funny is I could have sworn I could feel that on a pittman, but that is a well constructed motor.  I will have to go back and check.

Looking at the Mabuchi site, the brushes are not all carbon based some are just metal.  So the small catch at the segment doesn't have to destroy the contact/brush, plus this is where the electrical and audio noise is generated.

Based on the sensitivity of the back emf measurement Jon talked about in a different post, it would not surprise me that it is a contact bounce and electric spark that is causing a voltage spike in back emf causing the jerky response.

Having said that can a capacitor/inductor or some other device prevent that electrical noise so that the cruise works even with a poorer design motor.  G

George,

Thank you.  You have underscored my thoughts about CC performance on a three pole motor.  You beat me to the punch on the capacitors.  I know Lionel installed caps on the Pullmor AC motor brushes on early TMCC engines.  After a while, Lionel had them on all AC motors whether they had TMCC or not.  Probably a production decision.  I'm sure a cap or quench-arc would work just as well on a can motor to eliminate or reduce electrical noise.  Lionel installed such caps on their can motored Rail Scope engines to reduce electrical noise, so you know it would be beneficial.

Bob

I'm believe that Jon Z. once stated that any capacitors across the motor should be removed when using the Cruise Commander, so I'd say the capacitor idea is probably a non-starter.  I think it was something about sensing the commutation, but don't quote me on that.  Hopefully, he'll read this and give you the real scoop.

I found a good comment about the cogging effect in DC motors, it makes sense.  Cogging is also called ripple torque, probably because the torque will change based on the rotational angle of the rotor.

This is clipped from this page: Brushless motor "cogging". What is it?

Actually the cogging effect (technically known as detent) is due to pole construction. The windings have no effect.

I used to design motor drives for large (300+ ft-lb torque) DC brushless motors.

The cog or detent is the point at which the center of the magnets perfectly line up with the ideal magnetic path through the poles.

This detent can be sharp or soft depending on pole construction.

A straight pole (no twist) along it's length will have a sharp detent.

A twisted pole will have less. This is because for different points along the rotor the magnetic "perfect" point is at a different point in the rotation of the rotor.

Pole shape also has a factor in the detent amount as does air gap between the rotor and poles.

The drawback is loss of torque, high detent motors have higher peak torque and better efficiency than low detent motors.

The positives are smoother operation.

There was a thread where we theorizing how back EMF was used for speed control. I thought Jon was using the spike created when a brush crosses a commutator gap and you thought it was simply back EMF. Jon stated both are used but the spikes are used at low speed and back EMF at higher speeds. The spikes are clearly visible when you put a scope across the motor leads and apply DC.

Bottom line don't use capacitors on motors driven by ERR Cruise boards.

Pete

I won't install caps then.  Curious though, what is the end result if you do?  No speed control?  Jerky operation?  Just wanting to know.

Thanks Pete, I knew we discussed that.

Bob, I am not sure because I have never tried it but would assume it would compromise low speed control. If you look at every other system used in 3 rail constant speed systems whether its Legacy, Odyssey, DCS or TAS EOB, all use a tach strip or slotted wheel and a sensor. The sensor produces pulses which a counted for a fixed period of time. That tells the computer how how fast its turning and makes adjustments to speed it up or slow it down.

Jon, quite brilliantly I believe, figured out how to detect the pulses the commutator creates and do the same thing at slow speeds. Not easy to do as they are much lower amplitude compared to what a speed sensor outputs.

Pete

Okay Pete.  Thanks for the feedback.  I will not use caps.  Also, I will post a thread with pictures when I'm done with my 0-4-0 project. 

Thanks Pete!  100% correct.