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I know this has been discussed on here before. This is where I first heard of it.  Please bear with me as I am not a electronic guru. That’s why I read and listen to you all. 

Questtion is, what size amp should I put between the power brick and TIU, and what side of the plugs Red or Black? I was assuming red. Also since this is between the power source and TIU, it should not cause any disruption to the DCS signal? 

Fyi, on this particular loop, only 1-4 engines would be on at a time if that makes any difference as to what amps to use. 

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10 amp fast-blow fuse, in the Hot wire between the transformer output and the red TIU channel input terminal.


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Last edited by Barry Broskowitz
Cho Cho Wally posted:

Willygee,  Since a lash-up, is it DCS or Legacy? Where is fuse?

Wally

DCS..and i run in passive so Z1000 out to in line fuse to track feed direct. I use fixed one out from tiu for 3rail loop and fixed 2 for 2 rail loop. Each has its own Z1000 and 7.5amp fuse.They are independent of each other. FWI..non of my TIU inputs are used.

Last edited by willygee

Looking at the title of this thread, I think you are correct in looking for a breaker.  Given that derailments usually cause a short, you'll spend a fortune on fuses.  Since I don't use smoke, I use 5 amp breakers on the lines that don't normally run more than 2 engines, and 7.5 on the lines that often run more.

The Z1000 circuit breakers function well with some over current conditions but are too slow for a direct short or a full current dump..example 6 engines pulling 40 cars all is well..turn on all smoke units and it will trip the breaker. My understanding is the Lionel PH 180 have excellent electronic breaker specs for our train needs.

I use one from DCC Specaltys  PSX1-AC  its an electronic breaker that you can set with jumpers for several differant amperages as well as manual or automatic reset. got mine at Tony's train exchange. i used it for a long time on my old Lionel ZW and know with my bricks. very fast and worth the $70 to protect all your hi end stuff.

It can't be too expensive a circuit, or Lionel wouldn't include it in the PH-180.  It's a pity someone doesn't produce it as a stand alone, maybe even in kit form (hint to Adrian, GRJ, Stan, etc)

I do have one problem with the PH-180:  it trips to rapidly, like when a wheel flange brushes a hot rail going through a switch.

I'm not sure what is in the newer PH-180 production as Lionel had stated they had to redesign it because of a lost design.  However, the older model circuit has been posted many times.  Here it is again.

In the schematic, both U1b and U1c are amplifying the current sense signal.  U1c, the "overload" detector, has a gain of 148, but it is slowed down by the resistor and capacitor on its output.  The time constant (RxC) is 2.6 seconds.  Multiple short hits to this RC combination would charge it up until it trips the relay latch.

U1b has a gain of 37, which means it requires 4 times as much current, but it acts instantaneously for "dead short" situations.

Obviously, this circuit could be "tweaked" to modify the behavior.

Lionel Powerhouse 180 Schematic

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  • Lionel Powerhouse 180 Schematic
Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

Lost design?  Humbug!  Probably related to change in Chinese suppliers.

Looking at the schematic, it appears that most of the wiring is for the breaker alone.

If that breaker were available in kit form such as rtr produced with Adrian & GRJ help, I'd get 10, one for each of my 6 TIU circuits and the remainder for accessory and switch circuits.

RJR posted:

GRJ, what means "uP based"?  Why would Lionel use more parts than necessary to get same result?

Clearly, that's a question for Lionel.  Remember, the PH180 was designed quite a long time ago, and if there was an analog designer that felt more comfortable designing it the way it appears, that's probably why it's like that.  However, that's just speculation on my part.  I have no idea what's in the new PH180, maybe someone with a new one can take it apart and see.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You will probably need a triangular screwdriver to take it apart.  I have a bunch of the old ones, so I didn't feel the need to buy a new one.

I was still a short on them when they ran out. I just can't remember where I put the new ones...they're here somewhere? The price has gone up quite a bit now, good thing I got these early on when they first came back out. That was spring/early summer 2017, IIRC, plenty of time to get buried by other stuff around here. 

I’m going to be installing a 15a circuit breaker on my TIU sometime next weekend... my layout usually draws around 10 amps at one time (the max has been 18 at once ) under normal operation and I really only need it for when a short happens.  I don’t want to use a fuse because then every time I have a short I will need to replace the fuse, vs with a circuit breaker I can just flip the switch.  Also, I do know that you’re not supposed to be running more than 10 amps out of the TIU, so I have my layout split on two channels so there’s isn’t an issue there. 

Breakers should be between transformer & TIU, to protect the TIU as well as the layout wiring.  Actually, the breakers do not provide much protection to engines, because shorts on a layout are upstream of the engines, so they don't cause high current flows through the engine circuits.  What can damage engine circuits is the surging that occurs when there is a "sparking" short, and no breaker protects against that---TVSs are the protection for surges.

Evan Cihlar posted:

I’m going to be installing a 15a circuit breaker on my TIU sometime next weekend... my layout usually draws around 10 amps at one time (the max has been 18 at once ) under normal operation and I really only need it for when a short happens.  I don’t want to use a fuse because then every time I have a short I will need to replace the fuse, vs with a circuit breaker I can just flip the switch.  Also, I do know that you’re not supposed to be running more than 10 amps out of the TIU, so I have my layout split on two channels so there’s isn’t an issue there. 

A 15A breaker, unless it's a very fast electronic breaker, will be perfectly protected by the internal 20A fast blow fuse in the TIU.  I hasten to add, this is NOT how it should work! 

You should have protection on EACH of the TIU channels, with one large breaker, a single channel can still draw excessive power and you won't like the results.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Evan Cihlar posted:

I’m going to be installing a 15a circuit breaker on my TIU sometime next weekend... my layout usually draws around 10 amps at one time (the max has been 18 at once ) under normal operation and I really only need it for when a short happens.  I don’t want to use a fuse because then every time I have a short I will need to replace the fuse, vs with a circuit breaker I can just flip the switch.  Also, I do know that you’re not supposed to be running more than 10 amps out of the TIU, so I have my layout split on two channels so there’s isn’t an issue there. 

A 15A breaker, unless it's a very fast electronic breaker, will be perfectly protected by the internal 20A fast blow fuse in the TIU.  I hasten to add, this is NOT how it should work! 

You should have protection on EACH of the TIU channels, with one large breaker, a single channel can still draw excessive power and you won't like the results.

I was already planning on putting them on all of the channels.

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