Hiawatha Headache

Only comment: check differences between test stand and actual running track.  Are the lead or trailing trucks making contact with something on actual track but not on roller track?  Are your power rollers losing contact with actual running track but not on roller track?  Are you powering both with the same transformer?  Just some random thoughts when it works fine on rollers but not on track.  This also assumes other engines work fine on both locations.

Chuck

Trying to think of ways to eliminate things.  Easiest thing would be to try another TMCC engine to see if the problem is in the engine or track/power; unfortunately, the Hiawatha and Commodore Vanderbilt are the only standard gauge TMCC locos that I'm aware of.  If you have a Commodore, how does it behave on the track?  (And if you don't have a Commodore, why not? )

Are you using the same TMCC base and remote when testing on rollers as you are using on the layout?

Have you tried the TMCC base and remote on an O-gauge engine?

Have you flipped the rail/signal switch on the underside of the cab?

Did you reassemble the drive rods properly?  (Don't ask how I know about this)

@PRR1950 & @Mallard4468 -

Thanks for you ideas and suggestions, guys. Unfortunately, I've already been there and done that, as the saying goes.

The pick-up rollers are clean and make solid contact with the center rail. The boiler casting is off, as are the leading and trailing trucks. I indeed do have a Commodore Vanderbilt which is mechanically and electronically identical to the Hiawatha. It runs fine on both the same rollers and track.

The power source for command operation is a 180 watt Lionel brick and the control system is Legacy/Cab2. This combo also runs any of my various O gauge TMCC - Legacy engines without any problems. For conventional testing, I've been using a newer CW-90 which will also run the CV and any of my O gauge engines.

And, yes, the drivers and rods have been correctly positioned and reassembled. There are no binds.

I'm stumped.

- Mike

@PRR1950 posted:

Only comment: check differences between test stand and actual running track.  Are the lead or trailing trucks making contact with something on actual track but not on roller track?  Are your power rollers losing contact with actual running track but not on roller track?  Are you powering both with the same transformer?  Just some random thoughts when it works fine on rollers but not on track.  This also assumes other engines work fine on both locations.

Chuck

These are great. I would add:

The antenna that broadcasts the TMCC/Legacy signal is the ground wire in the house wiring.

Are the layout and the test rollers in the same part of the same room? If the receiver/radio board in the loco is weak, or if the antenna is compromised somehow, The loco's distance from an electrical ground source could make the difference.

You could test the radio board by swapping with the Commodore.

You can test the antennas with an ohmmeter. Disconnected from the board, the wires must have low resistance to the handrails and infinite resistance to the body/chassis/ground.

@Mike Casatelli posted:

@PRR1950 & @Mallard4468 -

Thanks for you ideas and suggestions, guys. Unfortunately, I've already been there and done that, as the saying goes.

The pick-up rollers are clean and make solid contact with the center rail. The boiler casting is off, as are the leading and trailing trucks. I indeed do have a Commodore Vanderbilt which is mechanically and electronically identical to the Hiawatha. It runs fine on both the same rollers and track.

The power source for command operation is a 180 watt Lionel brick and the control system is Legacy/Cab2. This combo also runs any of my various O gauge TMCC - Legacy engines without any problems. For conventional testing, I've been using a newer CW-90 which will also run the CV and any of my O gauge engines.

And, yes, the drivers and rods have been correctly positioned and reassembled. There are no binds.

I'm stumped.

- Mike

Ugh.  In addition to @RoyBoy's suggestions re the antenna, I'm wondering if there is an intermittent loose or pinched wire that only affects it after you move it to the track.  If you remove the shell, will it run in conventional mode on the track?  After it fails on the track, if you take it immediately to the test rollers, does it work?   Perhaps remove the shell, put it on the track, and test continuity to various points with and without power.

Glad to hear that you have a Commodore Vanderbilt - great set, and it allowed you to eliminate the track as the source of the problem.  FWIW (not relevant to this situation, but might matter in the future), I was told by someone who knew more about these engines than me that the drive trains are similar but not identical, so some internal parts can't be swapped between the two.  IMO, a really dumb design decision.

I had the privilege to visit Caryl Pettijohn's layout last fall.  He runs those engines, and mentioned that they can be troublesome and have been to his repair guy multiple times - perhaps you could contact him and find out who does his work.

Another suggestion is to contact the SGMA guys - somebody in that group has probably messed with a Hiawatha.

Edit:  One more thought.  The lead and trailing trucks tend to flop around a lot.  I wonder if something is going wrong when moving the engine to and from the track.  Maybe you could remove these trucks and see what happens. 

First of all, I want to thank all of you who contributed your very thoughtful ideas in this thread. You gave me new directions to look in and, in the end, they paid off. @RoyBoy and @Mallard4468 really localized the problem for me. It indeed was antenna related. I eventually found a tiny length of the antenna lead in the boiler that had been stripped of insulation and was rubbing on the inside of the shell near a wiring retainer. I closed the insulation gap and the engine returned to proper operation - almost  . . .

Now that it's running again - and well, I might add - the remaining gremlins are that it will only start in reverse and the headlight will not respond to the Aux 2 command. After everything else, these are just annoyances. but if anyone knows of  a fix, especially for the start up problem, please let me know. this would be easily correctable in DCS, but the TMCC and Legacy manuals don't seem to say nothing about it. By the way, other that that antenna lead, I didn't touch any of the wiring.

Finally, @Mallard4468, here's a short video of my CV piloting a string of State cars at Christmas-

Thanks again, guys.

Cheers,

- Mike

GLAD you got it solved! :-)

Did you try a reset for the other issue?

GOOD LUCK!

Thanks, Art, but these guys did the solving. I just did the work.

- Mike

Sorry, @Tinplate Art, I missed your question earlier but, yes, I did try a full reset to fix the start up and lighting problems. Didn't work.

- Mike

@Mike Casatelli posted:

First of all, I want to thank all of you who contributed your very thoughtful ideas in this thread. You gave me new directions to look in and, in the end, they paid off. @RoyBoy and @Mallard4468 really localized the problem for me. It indeed was antenna related. I eventually found a tiny length of the antenna lead in the boiler that had been stripped of insulation and was rubbing on the inside of the shell near a wiring retainer. I closed the insulation gap and the engine returned to proper operation - almost  . . .

Now that it's running again - and well, I might add - the remaining gremlins are that it will only start in reverse and the headlight will not respond to the Aux 2 command. After everything else, these are just annoyances. but if anyone knows of  a fix, especially for the start up problem, please let me know. this would be easily correctable in DCS, but the TMCC and Legacy manuals don't seem to say nothing about it. By the way, other that that antenna lead, I didn't touch any of the wiring.

Finally, @Mallard4468, here's a short video of my CV piloting a string of State cars at Christmas-

Thanks again, guys.

Cheers,

- Mike

Glad you got it working. 

Re the startup problem, TM has a book and a couple of videos on Lionel's command control systems.  Don't know if those resources would address this issue.

Glad you found the antenna problem.

If all else fails, how about swapping the leads on the motor?

@RoyBoy  Actually, there are two motors, but you're right, I could and ultimately may swap the leads. The down side would be that I still won't have corrected the underlying problem and won't know what caused it.

Some guys are never satisfied . . .

- Mike

@RoyBoy posted:

Glad you found the antenna problem.

If all else fails, how about swapping the leads on the motor?

@Mike Casatelli posted:

@RoyBoy  Actually, there are two motors, but you're right, I could and ultimately may swap the leads. The down side would be that I still won't have corrected the underlying problem and won't know what caused it.

Some guys are never satisfied . . .

- Mike

That's a creative approach, but I'm reminded of one of my favorite sayings... "better is the enemy of good".  Or one could be a disciple of Red Green - "if it ain't broke, fix it until it is".

Seems like I've been using those sayings a lot recently. 

If you follow the tinplate videos thread, you'll see several where Scott Smith runs his Hiawatha.  However, I think it's been discussed that he had all of the electronics replaced - with ERR stuff, I think.  Might be an option going forward.

OK, guys, we're all basically on the same wavelength. Until this incident, this engine has served me well for 10 years or so, but I've never really been happy the limited control afforded by early TMCC and the poor sound quality. I'm glad it's running again, but it's in line for some sort of electronics upgrade.

Once again, thanks to all.

Cheers,

- Mike

If you do an upgrade, please post about it. 

My solution to most electronics issues is to replace the originals with the reliable products of Dallee Electronics!

Another large vote for Dallee products.  Where applicable they are one of the best.

Mike: Keep us posted. Only problem with my Hiawatha was the poor smoke output until I changed the wadding for MTH's.