New Norfolk Southern 21” Cars paint color

Ouch, thats slightly painful. Its hard to believe the reds are still that far off. Its been an issue for years. I wonder where the disconnect is. I’m surprised Lionel doesn't approve color chip samples from the factory prior to painting.

I’m really not surprised anymore.

The saga continues...

They’re letting these vendors fly by the seat of their pants, …….I’d be utterly ashamed to have painted that, and hand those two cars back to the customer,……..AMOF, if that’s how the paint had turned out, I wouldn’t even let the customer see it until I fixed it,……I mean, a slight color variant, and it would more “ appropriate “ ….but given the real cars were painted in the same batch, I’d say that the big L missed this one by a number of light years,….it’s like the NYC Pacemaker cars,….they’re only off by 60-70 shades, ……a near miss in their book I suppose??….those cars undergo paint corrections this fall,….totally off,…...

Pat

It looks like they were going for the Hogwarts passenger cars. I remember someone saying, Ryan or Dave, that they were going to get samples on things to make sure that they were correct. I guess that was for engines mainly. Either that or they have thought they have it under control. Clearly not.

Some of the biggest flubs have come from around 2016-2017(onward) color issues, though some things had come before that. I remember seeing a video on one of the Zephyr's cars missing the second "N" in Finn, smoke box colors being completely off, as well as other detailing near the cabs of engines. The Polar Express debacle. Last one I can remember was the Texas & Pacific engine colors being way less than desirable. I believe that same catalog the Southern offering was also just a bit off(I think just a shade lighter).

Clearly someone has not gotten the memo. Did you reach out to Lionel on this? Not sure if it will do any good, but bringing this up to a bunch that have bought the same cars may create enough noise to make some action like the Polar Express cars(that was fixed, right?).

Yikes, even the redone theater car doesn't match right either.

Send them back

@harmonyards posted:

They’re letting these vendors fly by the seat of their pants, …….I’d be utterly ashamed to have painted that, and hand those two cars back to the customer,……..AMOF, if that’s how the paint had turned out, I wouldn’t even let the customer see it until I fixed it,……I mean, a slight color variant, and it would more “ appropriate “ ….but given the real cars were painted in the same batch, I’d say that the big L missed this one by a number of light years,….it’s like the NYC Pacemaker cars,….they’re only off by 60-70 shades, ……a near miss in their book I suppose??….those cars undergo paint corrections this fall,….totally off,…...

Pat

Pat, that’s been my beef with all of this stuff. For reasons unknown, they can’t seem to get the colors consistently right during the manufacturing process. That’s, obviously, the core of the problem. Yet, somebody in North Carolina sees these problems upon arrival stateside and still ships the pallets out.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Pat, that’s been my beef with all of this stuff. For reasons unknown, they can’t seem to get the colors consistently right during the manufacturing process. That’s, obviously, the core of the problem. Yet, somebody in North Carolina sees these problems upon arrival stateside and still ships the pallets out.

My guess: low bid vendor, …..they get what they pay for, …and pray 80% of the consumers wont care or wont notice,…..I know my customers would puke up their shoes if I handed back a pair of models that looked like that,….😲

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

My guess: low bid vendor, …..they get what they pay for, …and pray 80% of the consumers wont care or wont notice,…..I know my customers would puke up their shoes if I handed back a pair of models that looked like that,….😲

Pat

Well, raise the roof like they did with the Polar Express cars. I remember Ryan getting the riot act read to him over that which he assured folks they would be corrected. I don't know how long that took, but I believe it was resolved after 2-3 years?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Well, raise the roof like they did with the Polar Express cars. I remember Ryan getting the riot act read to him over that which he assured folks they would be corrected. I don't know how long that took, but I believe it was resolved after 2-3 years?

The problem with the PolEx RPO was reported in October of 2019. Six forum pages and nearly two years later, the replacements showed up in August of 2021. Obviously, the world turned upside down in early 2020, so maybe that also contributed to the long delay.

@Rider Sandman posted:

The problem with the PolEx RPO was reported in October of 2019. Six forum pages and nearly two years later, the replacements showed up in August of 2021. Obviously, the world turned upside down in early 2020, so maybe that also contributed to the long delay.

Yeah, that could be part of it for sure. The main thing is to make noise and tell them this isn't cutting it. The T&P's I think they just said if you don't like it, send it back, but I don't know for sure on that as I didn't order one and only followed that topic for a bit.

Clearly these cars look more like they belong behind a Hogwarts engine and not any Norfolk Southern ones. So, what are they going to do? No noise, nothing. Give it to them, say hey, this clearly is way off. This needs to be corrected.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Yeah, that could be part of it for sure. The main thing is to make noise and tell them this isn't cutting it. The T&P's I think they just said if you don't like it, send it back, but I don't know for sure on that as I didn't order one and only followed that topic for a bit.

Clearly these cars look more like they belong behind a Hogwarts engine and not any Norfolk Southern ones. So, what are they going to do? No noise, nothing. Give it to them, say hey, this clearly is way off. This needs to be corrected.

I bet they match the stripe on the last “J” that was released.

Yeah probably Marty. That was actually the first thing I thought of looking at the pictures above. Funny thing was when I was out at Strasburg when the N&W K's and cars came out, I could swear the color looked just like those in the catalog. I however attributed my eyes deceiving me as "A Trick Of The Light". I do recall that the J's could get the paint corrected if you ordered them from through Mr.Muffins, I don't remember if Lionel had something direct from them.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Yeah probably Marty. That was actually the first thing I thought of looking at the pictures above. Funny thing was when I was out at Strasburg when the N&W K's and cars came out, I could swear the color looked just like those in the catalog. I however attributed my eyes deceiving me as "A Trick Of The Light". I do recall that the J's could get the paint corrected if you ordered them from through Mr.Muffins, I don't remember if Lionel had something direct from them.

For a limited time, Lionel followed Mr. Muffins’ lead and allowed all buyers to ship their Js to Harry to have them repainted at Lionel’s expense.

@Rider Sandman posted:

For a limited time, Lionel followed Mr. Muffins’ lead and allowed all buyers to ship their Js to Harry to have them repainted at Lionel’s expense.

Yup, mine is as was, or as is. Matches the cars, haha.

I returned my J.  Nothing against Harry and his fantastic work but I paid for a correctly factory painted J and didn't receive it.  I didn't want decals and the risk of shipping it around.  It's getting hard to give them the benefit of the doubt when it keeps happening.  Not mad about it, just disappointed to see that the problem still exists.  Because of the recent paint issues I rarely pre-order and when I do it's always with the understanding if it isn't correct I may not be taking it home.

I figured that I update everyone. I emailed Lionel yesterday asking what they will doing about this. Also I am attaching a picture that I took of the cars outside in natural sunlight. Again the car on top is the new run of cars (2227250) and the excursion set from 2019 is on the bottom (1927200).

Brutal. They must have used the leftover “Tuscan” paint from the Legacy S1s.

@MartyE posted:

I returned my J.  Nothing against Harry and his fantastic work but I paid for a correctly factory painted J and didn't receive it.  I didn't want decals and the risk of shipping it around.  It's getting hard to give them the benefit of the doubt when it keeps happening.  Not mad about it, just disappointed to see that the problem still exists.  Because of the recent paint issues I rarely pre-order and when I do it's always with the understanding if it isn't correct I may not be taking it home.

Yup, understand completely too Marty. I have a B&O run from Muffins that was painted by Harry, with all the decals and such as well. I like the Pacific, it looks good too. I do know one of Eric's episodes was something that was weathered by Harry, it rubbing off. Eric contacted Harry, Harry asked him to send it back, and it was fixed, better than what it was I think Eric said. I don't remember if Eric said there was no sealant on it, or what.

@B&O946 posted:

I figured that I update every. I emailed Lionel yesterday asking what they will doing about this. Also I am attaching a picture that I took of the cars outside in natural sunlight. Again the car on top is the new run of cars (2227250) and the excursion set from 2019 is on the bottom (1927200).

Yeah, see what they say. I know when I have asked something, I sometimes point to the topic in question, just to let them know I'm not the only one. It may not be necessary, but it tells them to take a better look at things(if they listen).

I'm hoping the Aberdeen locomotives and cars come in correct.  The first set of cars that already delivered looked good, but we'll see if the rest match. 

I totally get that screw ups happen, and the pandemic made QC hard, but what I don't get is how on earth you have a problem occur, not once in a blue moon, but regularly, and you don't put in place a new system to address it.  I've made big, glaring, bad mistakes on deliverables before.  I put in place new systems to catch that the next time.  Those issues don't happen any more.

I've been Lionel's facility for the warehouse sale.  It's big but not huge.  I entirely get that not everything needs a high level QC check (starter sets can just come in and get shipped out).  But it boggles the mind that they have not created a system where when a container of high end stuff comes in, Ryan and Dave either are brought samples or go down to the floor and take just a cursory look before it goes back out the door to dealers.  Its not frickin rocket surgery.  There's no way that their contract with the factory doesn't include a clause about building stuff as specified.  If I remember correctly Ryan has said they are using standard color coding, so it should be really simple to scan it and say, "yeah this ain't it, do it over"

@MartyE posted:

I bet they match the stripe on the last “J” that was released.

That is what I was thinking Marty, these match the incorrect stripe color on that J. Simply amazing their incorrect color issues continue to occur.

@MartyE posted:

Because of the recent paint issues I rarely pre-order and when I do it's always with the understanding if it isn't correct I may not be taking it home.

You're lucky. Unfortunately, as has been mentioned before, those of us (the vast majority, no doubt) who live far from any Lionel hobbyshop/dealer (common now given that there are so many fewer than there used to be) don't have the luxury of "not taking it home." In order to discover that something has the wrong color, we've had to order the item and IT'S ALREADY HOME!!

Now we're stuck with a can of worms dealing with all the time and issues involved in returning the item and shipping it back, often well over a thousand miles, to the dealer we bought it from, getting a refund, etc. etc. A real time-consuming pain in the ____ . No opportunity to look before you buy.

It's no fun spending $500-$1000 or more for something and then, instead of enjoying your new item, having to spend a boatload of time calling the dealer and making arrangements for return (and who's going to pay for that!) and packing it up and driving to a shipping location and then waiting to get your money back!

I don’t care if it’s mail order or not it’s going back if it’s not acceptable to me.

This is not a tactic to get out of a pre-order. It is only if there is a real issue with an item. I will always honor a pre-order that is as advertised.

@PSM posted:

But it boggles the mind that they have not created a system where when a container of high end stuff comes in, Ryan and Dave either are brought samples or go down to the floor and take just a cursory look before it goes back out the door to dealers.

Well, that just doesn't happen in that way. Dave has said before as well as Ryan, that they get pre-production, and production samples throughout the process. Some things are either very early samples while others are in a few phases before being done(to head to full production of whatever it is). Demos with Dave has had a bunch of different items in different stages of being made. I think one of the ones from several months ago actually had some different things going on about it which Dave commented, was one of the steam locomotives.

These being passenger cars there is probably a big difference to the high end engines, but there would still be something sent, maybe the shell to look over, but not necessarily this particular one. Perhaps they send a shell of whatever is being developed, say they have 5 different rail lines using the particular model. The color schemes maybe viewed over email, videos, who can say exactly.

To have a container come in, and them to look at it right there is just about as useless as that old saying about bulls. The cat is already out of the bag, and looking at it at that point just doesn't do anything for them. Having said that, yes, they need to have way better QC on everything. If they want to cure the color issues, they need to have someone who knows exactly what it is supposed to look like when the first painting of EVERYTHING THAT IS BEING PRODUCED gets painted. We went through the nightmare of high tone silver smoke boxes and fire boxes that should have been graphite(dark, dark color as opposed to white silver). That was a huge nightmare.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Well, that just doesn't happen in that way. Dave has said before as well as Ryan, that they get pre-production, and production samples throughout the process.

Yes, I'm aware that's how they've been doing it, but I don't understand how, after all these issues they haven't changed the procedure, and added a final check of what they actually receive.  Clearly checking preproduction and then just sending customers whatever shows up isn't working.

Presumably if the container showed up full of dog toys instead of trains, they'd refuse delivery and make the factory send them what was promised, not just ship them to customers.

I'm saying there should be a final check that what they approved is what actually showed up.

@PSM posted:

Yes, I'm aware that's how they've been doing it, but I don't understand how, after all these issues they haven't changed the procedure, and added a final check of what they actually receive.  Clearly checking preproduction and then just sending customers whatever shows up isn't working.

Presumably if the container showed up full of dog toys instead of trains, they'd refuse delivery and make the factory send them what was promised, not just ship them to customers.

I'm saying there should be a final check that what they approved is what actually showed up.

Checking a container when it arrives is useless.  The products are paid for (or they wouldn't ship) and the cost to ship is so expensive that to ship it back would be unfeasible.  (Also I assume importing a container to China must be difficult)

It seems to me one of two things happened here.  Lionel approved samples without comparing them to previous runs and that's why the colors are off (that's on Lionel) or they approved samples that were the correct color but then the factory used a different color during final production (that's on the factory)  In either scenario, Lionel needs to make this right.

@Bossman284 posted:

Checking a container when it arrives is useless.  The products are paid for (or they wouldn't ship) and the cost to ship is so expensive that to ship it back would be unfeasible.  (Also I assume importing a container to China must be difficult)

It seems to me one of two things happened here.  Lionel approved samples without comparing them to previous runs and that's why the colors are off (that's on Lionel) or they approved samples that were the correct color but then the factory used a different color during final production (that's on the factory)  In either scenario, Lionel needs to make this right.

Checking the container is not useless as it relates to the customer!  I agree that from Lionel’s perspective it’s too late to fix their mistake at that point in the process, but that doesn’t mean they should pass them on to their customers.

It is fundamentally true that it is better to build-in quality than it is to inspect-in quality. But, if you’re not doing the former, you owe to your customers to try the latter. In this case (or nearly any of the countless previous cases), it would have been immediately clear to someone in North Carolina that the product wasn’t right.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Checking the container is not useless as it relates to the customer!  I agree that from Lionel’s perspective it’s too late to fix their mistake at that point in the process, but that doesn’t mean they should pass them on to their customers.

It is fundamentally true that it is better to build-in quality than it is to inspect-in quality. But, if you’re not doing the former, you owe to your customers to try the latter. In this case (or nearly any of the countless previous cases), it would have been immediately clear to someone in North Carolina that the product wasn’t right.

Inspecting at the container arrival, would mean one of two things... Lionel doesn't put the product in the market and eats the cost (and then fights it out with the factory) or they release the product and refer you to the small print in the catalog that states there may be variations from the catalog picture to what actually is released.

The best way to avoid all of this is to find out where the failure is an fix that before more product leaves China.  The only way to ensure that this happens it to return them.  if people accept the bad color there is no motivation to fix the problem

These nicely match the last Js that were done AND accompanying Cavalier passenger set. We arranged  for Harry to correct all of it and he did a fantastic job, added interiors, and corrected the paint.

Maybe you can get a couple of Js and find an original Cavalier set.  A fleet might look a lot better… okay, probably not.

Ryan told me years ago that he had the  sample Polar Express RPO car in his hand for approval and did not realize that the paint was wrong. Unless there is something to compare a new product with, errors can happen. Given Lionel’s number of different products, it is probably impossible to check all but how about a system for the expensive stuff.

Obviously  this is not as simple as it seems and dollars and time required are probably less expensive when the product is simply returned/$$$ refunded. But it sure doesn’t help customer relations.

Good luck  Marty.

This is the original run car & the top car is the redo theater car

@B&O946 posted:

..."but I have to say they really missed color on the new cars"...

The bottom car is much closer to reality. That red is bonked, pigment/paint machine must be broken. Several current Norfolk Southern(western) cars were parked in my town last week. They might still be there - I'll try to get a picture tomorrow

@PSM posted:

Yes, I'm aware that's how they've been doing it, but I don't understand how, after all these issues they haven't changed the procedure, and added a final check of what they actually receive.  Clearly checking preproduction and then just sending customers whatever shows up isn't working.

Presumably if the container showed up full of dog toys instead of trains, they'd refuse delivery and make the factory send them what was promised, not just ship them to customers.

I'm saying there should be a final check that what they approved is what actually showed up.

@Bossman284 posted:

Checking a container when it arrives is useless.  The products are paid for (or they wouldn't ship) and the cost to ship is so expensive that to ship it back would be unfeasible.  (Also I assume importing a container to China must be difficult)

It seems to me one of two things happened here.  Lionel approved samples without comparing them to previous runs and that's why the colors are off (that's on Lionel) or they approved samples that were the correct color but then the factory used a different color during final production (that's on the factory)  In either scenario, Lionel needs to make this right.

PSM, yeah, I do agree with you that there should be a stronger action to prevent these mistakes which seem to be happening in waves. They have stuff made, a percentage comes in wrong, next shipment, maybe the percentage goes down, or up. They put a fix in when things get heated up on their end from us consumers that is if we speak loudly.

Bossman284, it isn't useless as they do have to check and sort the orders. I agree with @Rider Sandman.

Here is the problem, they gamble on the whether they believe that they can make it sell. If we look back at what issues have come up, and what has been addressed as them fixing, it is very small. The Polar Express cars, and the second VL Challengers, those are the two biggies. The Polar Express was a big miss, the second VL Challengers was something of an easy fix that they said, "Well, okay", because the drift chuff was something people expected, though not stated in the catalog. Anyone that wanted it fixed, sent it in and got it fixed. The passenger cars of course were a bit harder to fix as they had to correct the factory's error.

Now, the biggest mistake was the Legacy Mogul's from I think 2016 was it, maybe 2017. They had an issue that was extremely baffling because no two Mogul's seemed to have the same issues. Dave Olson had commented somewhere on the forum about the one someone sent in giving him different problems every time he fiddled with it. What wound up happening with a portion of these, is that Lionel did get them back and nothing came from them. There are a few that are out and about, they are either still sleepers waiting to breakdown, or those that have been fixed by some of our great forum members that sort of had an idea of what could possibly be the issue.

So the question is, where do we as consumers go from here? Well, as Marty has stated, "if it isn't correct I may not be taking it home". This comes to what are you willing to accept. I have suggested above, contact Lionel and see what they would do. If we the consumers have any kind of voice, we have to make sure that we are heard by the manufacturers of what we enjoy. If I have learned one thing, we do enjoy our hobby, and we like to have our stuff work properly(and look right, or close to right depending on what is achievable with the toolings).

Seeing how irate one of us got with the Polar Express cars way off color really shows what we should do. The issue was already known to Lionel(Ryan was ready to have answers for it at York), and they had to figure out exactly how to try and keep all of us from losing our cool. Some things did seem to get better, but seeing how we are right back at square one with this, doesn't leave much hope for things being fixed. What more can we do other than ask them to get it right, and tell them we don't want it if it isn't right? Heck, I don't know. If their sales slump because of issues, they have no choice but to try and address the issue at hand. What more can I say?