Blackwater Canyon Line - March 20, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

Mark I think it looks great! Once your all painted up it will fit eight in. As Tranquil stated when your cars are in place every thing is perfect! 😀

Man, those cobblestones are amazing!  Aren't you the clever cleaver!

Seriously, that's good work!

George

@Mark Boyce posted:

I rolled the curved sections of brick streets a couple days ago, and they are dry now.  I trimmed them to width since taking the photographs while parts were still a little moist.  While neither section turned out exactly as I had imagined, they are really close.  On the left side, my pivots of the roller weren't smooth, but still looks good.

The right hand side pivoted better, but I got a little off from where I intended, but it will work out fine.

Yesterday, I took a couple photographs of the brick road in front of her house.  This is the road that winds down the hill into town.  The white between bricks is salt residue.  Why should I worry if my pivots of the roller weren't smooth flowing.  Those fellows back in 1905 certainly weren't worried about it. 

I hope to do some painting tomorrow (famous last words).  After a nice week, the weatherman predicts rain.

It's all coming together nicely Mark!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Yesterday, I took a couple photographs of the brick road in front of her house.  This is the road that winds down the hill into town.  The white between bricks is salt residue.  Why should I worry if my pivots of the roller weren't smooth flowing.  Those fellows back in 1905 certainly weren't worried about it. 
With that being said, it should be easier for you and forgiving to let the minor setbacks pass. I think it looks outstanding for its purpose.

Gene

I hope to do some painting tomorrow (famous last words).  After a nice week, the weatherman predicts rain.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I rolled the curved sections of brick streets a couple days ago, and they are dry now.  I trimmed them to width since taking the photographs while parts were still a little moist.  While neither section turned out exactly as I had imagined, they are really close.  On the left side, my pivots of the roller weren't smooth, but still looks good.

I hope to do some painting tomorrow (famous last words).  After a nice week, the weatherman predicts rain.

For a minute there I thought you were replicating Arnold's Yankee Stadium!

This really looks great Mark. The small deviations just add to the realism and charm of brick roads. Worst case you could chop out a spot and put the DOT out to complete the repairs.

Bob

roadways and walkways are the connecting "track" between buildings.

this brick approach using clay with at brick design impression roller has a lot of uses.

I use laser cut designs to created regular patterned openings in the overall shape of the street path and then use a 3D printed insert pattern to fit inside the openings.

I may now go back to clay!

Thank you, Jay, Mike, George, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Alan!

Jay, Mike, I did plop down some vehicles, but didn't really pick any areas I'm not pleased with.

George, I give @ScoutingDad Jeff all the credit.  He did all the heavy lifting and then coached me. 

Bob, Gene, yes the real thing is really enlightening.  I knew there were places like the seam, but had forgotten one was right in front of our older daughter's house. 

Bob, I thought similarly as I first looked at it.  I was thinking maybe the Little League right beside the rural grade school I attended 60 years ago.    A good case in point for repairs is where contractors are repairing a water line by our younger daughter's in-laws.  They remove the bricks and neatly stack them on the sidewalk, do the repairs, prep the base, and finally relay the bricks.  They have worked on it as the weather allows since last fall, and the part they have finished looks great!  It would really be an interesting scene. 

Alan, your comment got me thinking.  Maybe a 3D printed design would work for a modern walkway; all nice and flat with great designs.  For 120-year old streets, the randomness of the clay rolling may be better.  Each takes some work, but very different kind of work.

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over. 

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Mike, George, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Alan!

Jay, Mike, I did plop down some vehicles, but didn't really pick any areas I'm not pleased with.

George, I give @ScoutingDad Jeff all the credit.  He did all the heavy lifting and then coached me. 

Bob, Gene, yes the real thing is really enlightening.  I knew there were places like the seam, but had forgotten one was right in front of our older daughter's house. 

Bob, I thought similarly as I first looked at it.  I was thinking maybe the Little League right beside the rural grade school I attended 60 years ago.    A good case in point for repairs is where contractors are repairing a water line by our younger daughter's in-laws.  They remove the bricks and neatly stack them on the sidewalk, do the repairs, prep the base, and finally relay the bricks.  They have worked on it as the weather allows since last fall, and the part they have finished looks great!  It would really be an interesting scene. 

Alan, your comment got me thinking.  Maybe a 3D printed design would work for a modern walkway; all nice and flat with great designs.  For 120-year old streets, the randomness of the clay rolling may be better.  Each takes some work, but very different kind of work.

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over.

Wow Mark that looks great! I think you have hit a home run!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Mark, I know there is a lot more work to do, but this scene ... just wow. the brick streets are so unusual, they provide a foundation for everything else to come to life. Great vision and imagination.   Jeff

I think you are going to need a couple of trees. 

Mark, I can feel the bumps and hear the suspension creaking! 

George

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Mike, George, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Alan!

Jay, Mike, I did plop down some vehicles, but didn't really pick any areas I'm not pleased with.

George, I give @ScoutingDad Jeff all the credit.  He did all the heavy lifting and then coached me. 

Bob, Gene, yes the real thing is really enlightening.  I knew there were places like the seam, but had forgotten one was right in front of our older daughter's house. 

Bob, I thought similarly as I first looked at it.  I was thinking maybe the Little League right beside the rural grade school I attended 60 years ago.    A good case in point for repairs is where contractors are repairing a water line by our younger daughter's in-laws.  They remove the bricks and neatly stack them on the sidewalk, do the repairs, prep the base, and finally relay the bricks.  They have worked on it as the weather allows since last fall, and the part they have finished looks great!  It would really be an interesting scene. 

Alan, your comment got me thinking.  Maybe a 3D printed design would work for a modern walkway; all nice and flat with great designs.  For 120-year old streets, the randomness of the clay rolling may be better.  Each takes some work, but very different kind of work.

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over.

Mark, WOW! I hope you are pleased with the results because it looks spectacular. You and Jeff are the pioneers in another dimension of scenery. Truly, you and Jeff should be co-authors on an article for an edition of OGR. Congratulations 🍾🎈🎉🎊

Jay

@Mark Boyce posted:

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over.

Excellent work Mark, your time and patience have paid off!

Thank you, Mike, Jeff, George, Jay, Gene!

Jeff, Thank you, and thank you for all your help and suggestions!  Yes, some trees are certainly needed!

George, yes.  The suspension; just like driving the Diamond in Butler! 

Jay, Jeff can write the article and I'll add a couple photographs.

Gene, and I was thinking I wasn't patient enough. 

I have two projects associated with the town that I want to do next, besides figuring out the sidewalks.  One is the Bar Mills Lenny's Service shop that will go right up front.  The other is tying in the highway bridge at the far right of the scene.  Both have been started, though the bridge is farther along.  Oh, and I need a tree or two.

Mark, I was watching an HO guy add scenes to his extensive layout and liked what he was doing when adding buildings to various scenes.  He used heavy poster board thoroughly coated with primer on both sides as a base for his buildings including side walks. He sanded the areas where the building pavement met the street creating a smooth transition. I am a big fan of being able to work on the areas off the layout and then place them as needed. The modeler is Jason Jensen. check your email.  Jeff

Jeff, I have watched Jason Jenson videos.  But it has been a while since I watched and I have not seen anything you are describing.  I checked my email and see the link.  Thank you very much!  I agree working off the layout and placing a scene on is appealing.  I was just working on getting the support heights and angle right for the bridge on the right and needed to sit down.  😀

Mark you are giving me ideas I have a sectionof my layout that has several Isaly buildings and the brick streets would look great where I have place them. Partially raised in Southside just down the street from J&L Carson Street works what you are doing reminds me of those streets from back in the late fifties. I may have to give it a try. What kind of clay are you using for the brick streets? I found the rollers on the web. Keep up that great work it really looks great and very reminiscent of the Burgh I grew up in. Left there in 62 and moved to Florida where every thing is asphalt or concrete.

@RJT posted:

Mark you are giving me ideas I have a sectionof my layout that has several Isaly buildings and the brick streets would look great where I have place them. Partially raised in Southside just down the street from J&L Carson Street works what you are doing reminds me of those streets from back in the late fifties. I may have to give it a try. What kind of clay are you using for the brick streets? I found the rollers on the web. Keep up that great work it really looks great and very reminiscent of the Burgh I grew up in. Left there in 62 and moved to Florida where every thing is asphalt or concrete.

Rick, I went back a few pages and this is the information Jeff provided.

Jay

Thank you, Rick!  Isley and brick street!  Excellent combination!     Yes, I'm sure the Southside had brick streets!!

Thank you, Jay for going back and taking a screen shot!  That is exactly what I bought!

Mark do you roll out the entire 1 pd block or divide it up into smaller sections? Hobby Lobby has it on sale now @$2.09 a pound  and I have a store 10 minutes from my home. Yes they had them when I left in fact coming down into Southside from the Arlington Projects ( at lest that is what we called them back in the 50’s) the road was still brick last time I was in the Burgh was several years ago.

Rick, start with a 1/4 brick and knead it for a while to get it to soften up. Then roll out to a 2 to 3 MM thickness. The roller is only 4 inches wide and for me 16 long is about as long as I can manage. Keep adding clay until you get the dimensions you want.  If rolling in place lay the entire section in place to the desired thickness and trim excess from edges. Then roll the brick in one continuous motion.  As Mark found out different substrates absorb water at different rates, which can result in cupping. My next attempt will be to model building bricks in a 1 to 2 MM sheet. When dry the stuff is pretty firm and rigid. Getting it to dry slow enough not to warp will be the challenge. We've posted other tips on working with the clay and roller to get things to release or stay stuck to the substrate.

There are 2 kinds of rolling taking place here. First is to use something to flatten the clay into a smooth uniform surface, The second rolling is using the patterned roller. I used a 1/2 inch diameter steel rod. A wooden rolling pin is another option.

Thanks Jeff, I’m looking forward to giving this a try.

Thank you Jeff for explaining the process to Rick.  I used a rolling pin to get the clay pretty flat, but had to keep adding water because the clay stuck to the rolling pin.  I rolled some a the layout and one section on the workbench.  Since I had a curved street, I thought it best to do it on the layout.  I still didn’t get the right side of the street exactly where I intended, but it worked out.  

Just found on Hobby Lobby ‘s web sit 10 pd blocks for $9.59 I gonna check my local store and if they have them they will be mine and just ordered the roller from Amazon. I have a hill street scene with four buildings and yinz guys just solved  my street surface problem as I was not sure what I wanted to do with the street surface. Made the grade with 2 inch foam blocks I cut length wise but was not happy with how the street surface was looking with the clay I can mold the top and bottom transitions.

Rick, The clay I bought from the web site are 17.64 ounces (500 grams) for $3.49 each.  For the area I showed in the photographs, I used 3-1/2 of the 6 I bought.  A quick estimate is 4 pounds to do what I did.  I really had no idea how much to buy.  Your plan sounds great!!  I'm going to use some of the open brick to mold the transition from the street end to the bridge on the right.

Mark the area/road I want to do in brick I think will be about 7 feet long and also want to a street parking are the same way as I don’t think they would have changed the street parking to a different surface from the Main Street. At least I don’t remember street parking being different. But I am an old fart and it was along time ago!!!!!!

Rick make sure you get Nara or Das, regular clay does not work, I tried one of the 10 pound clay blocks   Mark. Nara is often on sale for under 2 a block. I think I used 6 blocks for my street. That was over 10 feet and got thick under the ties.

Rick, your memory is probably correct.  It would make sense for them to make it all brick.  The work where I used 4 pounds was about 6 feet long and the roller is 4 inches wide.  In the future, I think I could not waste as much as I did here.

Now that I know what I am looking for and have a rough idea of how far it goes, I'll shop around next time.  Thank you, Jeff!!

@ScoutingDad posted:

Rick make sure you get Nara or Das, regular clay does not work, I tried one of the 10 pound clay blocks   Mark. Nara is often on sale for under 2 a block. I think I used 6 blocks for my street. That was over 10 feet and got thick under the ties.

The box states it is air dry cly and talks about some of the things you mentioned about the surface it dries on and covering with wet paper towels to slow down the drying procees. That is something I will have to do as the humidty in my basement is lucky to be above 30% on average.

Ah the problem with the words "air dry clay".  There is almost no marketing difference between the various air dry clays. I used an air dry clay that rolled out nicely but then cracked and crumbled into dust.  If you did not buy either Nara or DAS, you have unmodified air dry clay which will not work for our purposes. I tried and learned.  Hobby Lobby carries NARA and often has it on sale for $2. Online it is usually around $10 from various suppliers. 

Rick, after I made two sections with mixed results, Jeff advised me to cover the clay with a damp cloth.  I used dampened old tee shirt rags to cover the drying clay.  I used all of what I have rolled after that.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Mike, George, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Alan!

Jay, Mike, I did plop down some vehicles, but didn't really pick any areas I'm not pleased with.

George, I give @ScoutingDad Jeff all the credit.  He did all the heavy lifting and then coached me. 

Bob, Gene, yes the real thing is really enlightening.  I knew there were places like the seam, but had forgotten one was right in front of our older daughter's house. 

Bob, I thought similarly as I first looked at it.  I was thinking maybe the Little League right beside the rural grade school I attended 60 years ago.    A good case in point for repairs is where contractors are repairing a water line by our younger daughter's in-laws.  They remove the bricks and neatly stack them on the sidewalk, do the repairs, prep the base, and finally relay the bricks.  They have worked on it as the weather allows since last fall, and the part they have finished looks great!  It would really be an interesting scene. 

Alan, your comment got me thinking.  Maybe a 3D printed design would work for a modern walkway; all nice and flat with great designs.  For 120-year old streets, the randomness of the clay rolling may be better.  Each takes some work, but very different kind of work.

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over.

Great job, Mark - if you ever need these guys to do repairs, I can let you borrow them. They get paid scale, but do quality work !

Thank  you, Richie!  Those fellows do look like hard workers!  Look at the muscles on the one with the muscle shirt!!

Jeff ScoutingDad sent me a video he had seen that addresses the sidewalk problem, since both of us are contemplating the same thing.  I watched the video and see potential, but need to adapt from HO to O scale, so that is all I have on that at this time.

I again turned attention to the bridge that I have placed at the right side of the town.  I have been puzzling over it for some time.  Ultimately, I do not think it will work for that location.  Even if I tilt it downhill leaving town, it is still too high in relation to the nearest rear track and the foreground tracks.

With or without the bridge I can't make a grade crossing across the rear tracks because trains coming up from the middle of the rear three tracks won't clear it.  Oops on the PRR boxcar!!

I had also thought of having the road wind downhill into the valley between the foreground and rear tracks, but I want to use that area for a farm.  Even without the bridge, that idea will take up too much space.

I am thinking of having the road dip down from the end of the brick street, turn sharply towards the backdrop, and disappear in a tunnel under the tracks.  The Woody shows it would work and nothing interferes with the middle track.  There are several places near where we live that have similar arrangements on the former Bessemer & Lake Erie, now Canadian National.

I think that will be the best way to do it.  What do any of you forum members think?

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Richie!  Those fellows do look like hard workers!  Look at the muscles on the one with the muscle shirt!!

Jeff ScoutingDad sent me a video he had seen that addresses the sidewalk problem, since both of us are contemplating the same thing.  I watched the video and see potential, but need to adapt from HO to O scale, so that is all I have on that at this time.

I again turned attention to the bridge that I have placed at the right side of the town.  I have been puzzling over it for some time.  Ultimately, I do not think it will work for that location.  Even if I tilt it downhill leaving town, it is still too high in relation to the nearest rear track and the foreground tracks.

With or without the bridge I can't make a grade crossing across the rear tracks because trains coming up from the middle of the rear three tracks won't clear it.  Oops on the PRR boxcar!!

I had also thought of having the road wind downhill into the valley between the foreground and rear tracks, but I want to use that area for a farm.  Even without the bridge, that idea will take up too much space.

I am thinking of having the road dip down from the end of the brick street, turn sharply towards the backdrop, and disappear in a tunnel under the tracks.  The Woody shows it would work, and nothing interferes with the middle track.  There are several places near where we live that have similar arrangements on the former Bessemer & Lake Erie, now Canadian National.

I think that will be the best way to do it.  What do any of you forum members think?

Mark, I like the road under the track's idea. I've toyed with the idea for years but being a flat liner it would be tough. I did have a road crossing on a couple layouts that went into a tunnel. Defiantly a good look.

@Mark Boyce postI had also thought of having the road wind downhill into the valley between the foreground and rear tracks, but I want to use that area for a farm.  Even without the bridge, that idea will take up too much space.

I am thinking of having the road dip down from the end of the brick street, turn sharply towards the backdrop, and disappear in a tunnel under the tracks.  The Woody shows it would work and nothing interferes with the middle track.  There are several places near where we live that have similar arrangements on the former Bessemer & Lake Erie, now Canadian National.

I think that will be the best way to do it.  What do any of you forum members think?

That's your best option in my opinion!

Cheers, Dave

Hey Mark I know I am taking g the easy way out. But if you could leave the bridge where it is and just put a traffic barricade at the end. Just an idea! Lol

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank  you, Richie!  Those fellows do look like hard workers!  Look at the muscles on the one with the muscle shirt!!

I am thinking of having the road dip down from the end of the brick street, turn sharply towards the backdrop, and disappear in a tunnel under the tracks.  The Woody shows it would work and nothing interferes with the middle track.  There are several places near where we live that have similar arrangements on the former Bessemer & Lake Erie, now Canadian National.

I think that will be the best way to do it.  What do any of you forum members think?

I like this one Mark. Maybe make the road up in town a dead end and do a hill down to the base level. You can do a gravel road like I did for my corner tunnel.

Bob

@Richie C. posted:

Great job, Mark - if you ever need these guys to do repairs, I can let you borrow them. They get paid scale, but do quality work !

would that be 1:48th of prevailing wage??

Mark, for the under the bridge approach you could try placing a mirror inside the overpass. Properly placed it would create a sense of depth.

Jay

Thank you, Dave Ripp, Dave arlander, Mike, Bob, Jay!

Dave Ripp, One for road into the tunnel.  The roads into tunnels that are common in my area on the B&LE are made of cut stone sort of like Pennsy style and are only one lane wide.  Most have the road coming from one direction at an angle to the tunnel so you can't see oncoming traffic and have to blow your horn before going through.  They were certainly well built.

Dave darlander, One for the road winding down into the valley.  I think that option makes the most sense in the real world.

Mike, One for The Bridge to Nowhere, a name of infamy for the now Fort Duquesne Bridge that is between PNC Park and Heinz Field. 

Bob, Two for dead end and Two for the tunnel.  Yours is an excellent example!  Very well done.  Good point about Richie's workers' wages. 

Jay, the mirror is a good idea.  I have seen it done often, but have never done it myself.

Thank you everyone for the ideas.  I do like the tunnel.  I'm going to ponder it for a while and also see if there are any more suggestions.

I updated the topic subtitle to ...Brick Street Extension...  to focus on the current discussion.  Last evening, I had another idea that I finished mocking up today.  It is actually similar to what I envisioned when I first started placing buildings on the town area months ago.  A twisty turn at the end of a street as it leaves town is quite common in my experience.  I mocked up how the road could cross the two higher tracks and still allow trains to pass underneath if I keep the road back far enough and make it very thin. 

No, there isn't much clearance.  The stack on the Decapod makes it my highest engine and that one boxcar is more modern than I like, so I don't anticipate getting anything higher.  I could push the the road crossing back a little farther towards the corner. 

I put the road going into the tunnel/underpass again.  The steep bank from the town to the road below is reminiscent of the way we have to travel from our house into town.  Of course if I want to use that scene, but have a gentler slope, I could move the road to the left any number of places.  While the next spot to the left is a little too narrow, it is reminiscent of the places that go under the former B&LE I mentioned a couple days ago.