Blackwater Canyon Line - March 20, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

Mark, how about a hair pin turn to reduce elevation. Even single lane would work. Seen enough of them in my travels.

Also the road over the tracks can be humped.

Hi Mark, I like your idea of going over both sets of tracks and like Jeff said it can be jumped. There are several bridges here in Joplin that way.

@mike g. posted:

Hi Mark, I like your idea of going over both sets of tracks and like Jeff said it can be jumped. There are several bridges here in Joplin that way.

Mike, can you explain your comment that a bridge can be jumped?

@pennsyfan posted:

Mike, can you explain your comment that a bridge can be jumped?

Lol it was spose to be humped!

Mark Boyce: An article from the Wilkinsburg Sun. March 2025

Laketon Road: The Laketon Road Reconstruction project is the first phase of a two-phase project that will convert the brick portions of Laketon Road and Graham Boulevard from brick roads to asphalt. The project will also install ADA ramps and relocate catch basins as needed along these roads. This project will improve safety for pedestrians, bicyclists, motorists, and public transportation riders. As borough residents are aware, the borough has a number of aging, brick surfaced roads. A large portion of the bricks that make up these roads are in a state of disrepair due to their old age. More significantly, the road bases below the bricks have been failing for some time. The combination of damaged bricks and failing bases has created undulating road surfaces that are a safety hazard for multimodal users of the roads. To begin addressing this problem, the borough applied for a Commonwealth Financing Authority (CFE) Multimodal Fund (MMF) grant in July 2023 for a $1.4 million project to convert the brick portions of both Laketon Road and Graham Boulevard into asphalt streets. The borough was awarded, in November 2023, a $643,268 MMF grant. This award provided sufficient funds for the design and construction of the Laketon Road portion of the project.

As one who grew up (?) in Wilkinsburg / Western PA, I have always felt the true character of the area started with brick streets. It seems that the era may be coming to its end.  If one models Western PA in the 20th century the work you are doing is essential. I love it !!

John

@Mark Boyce posted:

... Last evening, I had another idea ...  A twisty turn at the end of a street...

Mark, I must have read you mind last night.  I was thinking the same thing, but thought you may not want to shorten the fire station's driveway.  Regardless, I think the curve heading out of town and over two tracks is a good solution.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I put the road going into the tunnel/underpass again.  ...I could move the road ... any number of places.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I had also thought of having the road wind downhill into the valley between the foreground and rear tracks, but I want to use that area for a farm.  Even without the bridge, that idea will take up too much space.

I also like the idea to have a farm scene situated in the area to the left of the ruler shown in this last picture.  Would a narrow road across this area give the farm you want to model enough space?

Thank you, Jeff, Mike, Bob, John, Steve!

Jeff, Yes indeed in the single lane and hairpin turn!  I could certainly work up something like that.

Jeff, Mike, actually, I had the road humped up a bit using a section I had already cut.  I thought it was too high, so I trimmed it a bit too much.  How about it humped and skewed a bit.  I like that.

John, thank you for the excerpt from the Wilkinsburg Sun.  It is sad it has come to replacing the brick with asphalt there.  Here in Butler, the worst of the remaining brick streets aren't as bad as the potholes in the asphalt ones.   Maybe better built to start with.  Some still get a lot of traffic.  Thank you again!

Steve, you are right I didn't want to shorten the fire station's drive, but finally thought I will if I have to.  You are also right about even a one lane road leading to a farm will take away precious space.  I may just have a lane cross the tracks from the aisle and not connect to anything.  I'll have to work it out.  There is just so much I can do in a limited space.

I like it Mark!

I like the revised curve leading out of town.

@Mark Boyce posted:

.. I may just have a lane cross the tracks from the aisle (to the farm) and not connect to anything (else).

I think a driveway crossing the tracks to the farm from the aisle is a good compromise if you want the space a through road would have taken away from the farm acreage.

Here's another idea.  With the revised curved exit road idea on the table, this raises the question of the notion of also having a road going into a tunnel, which is cool IMO.  If you like this idea, maybe a second road could be added coming from the walk aisle, crossing the two lower level tracks and then heading into a tunnel somewhere around where you had it earlier or maybe a bit to the right of where it's depicted in this borrowed image (is it ok to borrow your picture for illustrating the idea?) :

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jeff, Mike, Bob, John, Steve!

Jeff, Yes indeed in the single lane and hairpin turn!  I could certainly work up something like that.

Jeff, Mike, actually, I had the road humped up a bit using a section I had already cut.  I thought it was too high, so I trimmed it a bit too much.  How about it humped and skewed a bit.  I like that.

John, thank you for the excerpt from the Wilkinsburg Sun.  It is sad it has come to replacing the brick with asphalt there.  Here in Butler, the worst of the remaining brick streets aren't as bad as the potholes in the asphalt ones.   Maybe better built to start with.  Some still get a lot of traffic.  Thank you again!

Steve, you are right I didn't want to shorten the fire station's drive, but finally thought I will if I have to.  You are also right about even a one lane road leading to a farm will take away precious space.  I may just have a lane cross the tracks from the aisle and not connect to anything.  I'll have to work it out.  There is just so much I can do in a limited space.

Mark, Maybe I missed an earlier discussion; but in the first picture if the road turned to the left after the first track and crossed the second track where the caboose is. Would that work?

Mark, I don’t have much experience in designing streets, but I’m sure whatever you do, with the guidance from others, will look perfect. I’ll be following the progress.

Gene

So many ideas....so here we go.....

As my Colombian HVAC Foreman would say "we're gonna try something crazy here".....

Hear me out Mark. I like where the discussion is going.
First suggestion is to split this up. Have the road out of town take a slightly more gentle down slope. Then split it so that the lower road is close to the track heading up with a right turn at the end into the tunnel below the track. The road can be surrounded by retaining walls on both sides.

THEN.....the lower road could S turn from the other side of the switch (left to right) and tie into the other road going into the tunnel.

I envision the upper level road bridge over the gap being a stone arch bridge.

Just my $.02......

Bob

Thank you, Mike, Steve, Bob, Gene!

Steve, by all means borrow any of my photographs and doctor them up at will!  This is a quick mockup that is approximately what you drew, I think. 

I am going to handle the slope in front of the track rising to the left is to make it a large fill.  Most of these tunnel/underpasses I see are tunneling through two-track fills, some rather high.  That will leave a relatively flat or rolling area to the right for the farm.  It is purely by accident that I now have white on black, which does show up nicely for photographs.

Bob, it is easy to miss something for sure.  I am doing it all the time on other threads.  I think I see what you are getting at.  The road would travel in between the two tracks for a ways, which is a great idea!  I will have to set something up and take a photograph or two of that.

Gene, as with my reply to Bob I need all the input I can get.  While I have built layouts in HO and N scale, none got this far with scenery since an N scale layout, I dismantled in the mid '90s when we moved back to Western Pennsylvania from West Virginia.  The rural part of that layout was at a rather nice level of finish and I was in the process of developing a town that had buildings and streets on several levels.  As I recall, my streets were sections of shirt box cardboard cut to length and width when I discarded all of it.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Mike, Steve, Bob, Gene!

As I recall, my streets were sections of shirt box cardboard cut to length and width when I discarded all of it.

My roads are cereal box cardboard......been a long time since the road crew was on site.

@pennsyfan Bob, I think what you are suggesting is something like this.

@RSJB18 Bob, I am a little less sure of what you are suggesting.  Is it something like this?  Granted, it would need some revision to lessen the grade.

The cereal boxes work good.  Your road crew hasn't been around for a while.  My town crew hasn't worked on the bricks since 1905! 

@Mark Boyce posted:

@pennsyfan Bob, I think what you are suggesting is something like this.

@RSJB18 Bob, I am a little less sure of what you are suggesting.  Is it something like this?  Granted, it would need some revision to lessen the grade.

The cereal boxes work good.  Your road crew hasn't been around for a while.  My town crew hasn't worked on the bricks since 1905! 

I like the first one form @pennsyfan. It looks the easiest and gives you a route to the back of town.

Maybe something like this?

Thank you, Mike, Steve!  

Mike, I like pennsyfan Bob’s suggestion also.

Steve, now I get it!  Yes, that looks more like what I think Bob meant.  I think that is a good possibility.

@Mark Boyce posted:

@pennsyfan Bob, I think what you are suggesting is something like this.

@RSJB18 Bob, I am a little less sure of what you are suggesting.  Is it something like this?  Granted, it would need some revision to lessen the grade.

The cereal boxes work good.  Your road crew hasn't been around for a while.  My town crew hasn't worked on the bricks since 1905! 

Mark, the first picture is a great example of what I meant.

Here's a crude mock up Mark.

The bridge would come off the upper road with cars going under from the front edge. The rest is self explanatory I think.

Thank you, pennsyfan Bob, RSJB18 Bob, Steve!

@pennsyfan Bob, thank you for confirming I was right about what you meant.  I like your suggestion for the upper road.

@RSJB18 Bob, thank you for giving a 3D mock up of your suggestion.  I mocked up something along that lines.  One problem I have is that I want the road making the grade crossings and off the front of the layout to stay to the right of the switch points.

The far right end of the right hopper is at the end of the area for the farm scene. 

I then mocked up Steve's suggestion.

My rendition of Bob's suggestion took up about 6 more inches than how I did Steve's.  That doesn't mean I am going with Steve's.  I will have to ponder it for a while and maybe try some other things. 

What is that mess underneath the layout????  Someone should put curtains or something so it isn't so distracting!!! 

What a hobby! Now you're doing  civil engineering! That's going to be a challenging road to drive.

When you get the curtains up for your pike, you can come and do mine. I've been procrastinating about that for about 5 years. There are no boxes or anything else under the layout, but skirting does really make it look nice.

Looks great Mark!!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

What is that mess underneath the layout????  Someone should put curtains or something so it isn't so distracting!!! 

Mark, you certainly have lots of ideas from this talented group. BTW, I made a temporary curtain to cover your distraction.😉

Gene

Your Railroad your Rules Mark.

Just assisting in the creative process. I had a feeling that you didn't want to encroach on the Farm scene too much.

Whatever you decide on I'm sure will look great.

Bob

Thank you, Myles, RV Junke, Gene, Bob!

Myles, I don't know that I would call it civil engineering.  More like civil 'stumbling'.    Yes, I can think of seeing a road something like it in real life, and I'm trying to place it.  I'm glad I won't be driving that road! 

RV Junke, thank you for checking in!!

Gene, Well I'm glad someone answered my plea!  That skirting looks great!! 

Bob, If it weren't for the switch for the two yard tracks under the town dictating the grade crossing, I could squish everything closer to the town.  That would give a lot more room for either option.  I am going to let those road ideas sit awhile and see where they take me.

I did fit and cut out road sections for the upper grade crossings.  This way, the road can disappear back in the coved corner.  As to the corner, I will have to slide the dryer in the other room out from the window, then I can get in there to work on the corner.  It isn't the most convenient access hatch, but I've done it before.

the "circle around to the underpass looks more like a Turnpike exit or a setting from "The Italian Job" than Appalachian coal fields. I'd think even an exaggerated  "Rialto St" would look more at home.

Don't be afraid to really skew RR crossings. A lot more common in the region. Even ones that were made perpendicular, do so by having bends right up to the track edge.

Thank you, Greg!  Your mentions of  a Turnpike exit, "The Italian Job", and "Rialto St" are not lost on me.  It's funny that I finally realized that the place I was thinking of wasn't in the boonies, but at Millvale.  For the uninitiated, Rialto Street is a very steep street on Pittsburgh's North Side.

Yes, if we eliminate the monster steps of Rialto Street, here is a mockup.  I think something like this would be more like Appalachia.  Much easier to build as well.

The stop sign at the bottom of the hill reminds me of South Main Street here in Butler, which by the way is still Brick.  I am standing a few feet from the stop sign and a barricade at the other side of the T.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Greg!  Your mentions of  a Turnpike exit, "The Italian Job", and "Rialto St" are not lost on me.  It's funny that I finally realized that the place I was thinking of wasn't in the boonies, but at Millvale.  For the uninitiated, Rialto Street is a very steep street on Pittsburgh's North Side.

Yes, if we eliminate the monster steps of Rialto Street, here is a mockup.  I think something like this would be more like Appalachia.  Much easier to build as well.

The stop sign at the bottom of the hill reminds me of South Main Street here in Butler, which by the way is still Brick.  I am standing a few feet from the stop sign and a barricade at the other side of the T.

Mark, what is the vertical height there? Judging by the rolling stock above, I'm estimating 30" in length.

I always wanted a road between my levels but thought it was too steep. Now I have the El to contend with. The vertical measurement is 13" .

And to think Rialto isn't even the Steepest in Pittsburgh, that goes to Canton Ave.

Personally, as I have probably mentioned on OGR before, my favorite steep street is Center Street in Duquesne, PA.

https://preview.redd.it/center...655892f0d4ea3b43d871

I guess the one problem with modelling all these with respect to their location on your layout is that they are residential streets. As steep and as twisty as roads in and out of Appalachian towns could be, they still were meant to be passable by heavy tonnage trucks.

Thank you, Bob, Greg, Richie!

Bob, the height is a shade over 7 inches.  The length of the slope is only 18 inches.  Yes, your El does add a wrench in the works!  Your scenes do have a lot of detail as they are!

Greg, yes Canton Avenue is steeper, but I think Rialto is a longer slope.  Center Street in Duquesne is steep as well.  I have never driven any of them myself.  You are right that steep rural roads usually have twists and turns.  The section of board I used has a slight turn near the bottom.  I’ll want it to turn more when I actually build it.

Mark,

I may be a little late to this talk about the roads , but I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish by connecting the two roads. An extremely steep street would be something more in line with Lombard street in San Francisco. Otherwise it looks like you introducing a helper grade for automobile traffic.

I'm thinking of 2 alternatives.

1. Treat the upper and lower streets as separate scenes. Put up a guardrail fence along the upper road to prevent wipe outs.

2. If you want to connect them then make the incline as long as possible.  Try to make it more realistic and believable.

Remember it's your Railroad,  this is just a suggestion.

Good point Bill.

I go back to my earlier idea Mark. Make the upper level road a dead end, or split the differene with the left turn out of town that has been discussed recently.

Bob

Thank you, Bill, Bob!

You know, I started on this rabbit trail when I wanted to try to use the River Leaf bridge.  Once I realized it wouldn’t work out well…

My original thought had been to take the street out where the fire house front is, make a grade crossing and take it somewhere between the tracks and sort of like Bob pennsyfan suggested.  I was working out Bill’s suggestion when I got called to go to Kim’s mom’s house for another wild goose chase.

As it is, I was contemplating if I want to change the bricks in front of the fire house and where to start asphalt.  I’ll let that thought  sit overnight.

Thank you both for bringing me around.  No wonder they pushed me out the door with an early retirement!  🙄 😄

Rabbit trails are a major component of this hobby; as we all can attest.
With regards to the fire house I see your predicament. Given the unusual angle you have I would suggest finishing the area with the red brick all the way across and alongside the fire house.Perhaps a white or yellow line of demarcation. Another possibility would be to make it look like concrete; or the asphalt. Or, can you swap out structures?

Jay

Mark, more bricks! more bricks!  You do such a nice job with them, and they look better than concrete or asphalt (IMO).  Just keep doing mock-ups. Something will catch your fancy.  Have not heard from the roller guy about the 9 inch roller as yet, maybe soon.

Thank you, Jay, Jeff!

Jay, I was once again looking over the area to see if there is a better position for the firehouse.  I tried it more in the center of town before, but it doesn't look appropriate there.  The edge of town seems better.  I had it angled facing the curve more, but it crossed over the joint between the lift up and the solid table.  I had planned to attach the buildings to the lift up, but still make them easily removable.  I think I will try putting the firehouse at the angle again and just remove it on the rare occasions that I need to open the lift up.  Brick or concrete may be the answer for around it.

Jeff, I think you are right about brick, possibly right to the grade crossing.  From there I could make the road either asphalt or concrete.  Thinking back to childhood in the '60s, a lot of roads around here were improved and straightened using concrete.  Now they have asphalt over them, but the cracks at the underlying expansion joints give away what was underneath.  Although, the twisty road in front of daughter Heidi's house leads out of town and is brick for a ways.  I hope the guy that makes the rollers gets back to you soon.

This isn’t too bad.

That works very nicely Mark.