Benchwork - Wiring - adding elevations

John, You learned about safety factors in mechanical engineering.  I learned about safety factors in electronics engineering. 

My copy of Lynn Westcott's book must be boxed up in the closet under the stairs which I stored there when we moved here over 9 years ago.  I have never had room to get all my railroad books out.  The stairs have a landing in the middle and turn back in the reverse direction.  That lowest spot behind a wall is where the boxes of books are.  Several years ago, I emptied the closet of empty train boxes and other items once and got out the books I thought I would use.  It isn't on the shelf with the others I removed.

I had forgotten the maximums were so large, since my little layouts never came close to the maximums.  I'm glad you have that reference book!!

Hi Mark, I know all to well on having things packed away! LOL The pages are falling out of this book I have read it so many times. I am a slow learner.

I did major in electronics and minored in mechanical. So long ago, I have forgotten all but the funny stories!

Dave, How do I print out a magnified section of the benchwork in scarm? I tried snapshot in scarm which didn't work for me. got the entire plan I could use photoshop but wanted to avoid the extra work.

Thanks

Ok I know it is getting late in the game, however my wife pointed out the yard takes up a huge amount of real estate. Other than doing away with entire yard I haven't a clue on how to shrink the yard without destroying the functionality. anyone with suggestions?

@Aegis21 posted:

Hi Mark, I know all to well on having things packed away! LOL The pages are falling out of this book I have read it so many times. I am a slow learner.

I did major in electronics and minored in mechanical. So long ago, I have forgotten all but the funny stories!

I took a slide rule into work almost 20 years ago now to show a younger coworker.  I couldn't remember how to use it.  I would even have to look up Ohm's Law to make sure I got it right.  I even graduated Magna Cum Laude, but what good did it do me??  I was always behind the curve on promotions and raises wherever I went.  Yet my uncle was a very average student.  He became an aerospace engineer with Boeing, worked on the Apollo project at Huntsville and Cape Canaveral and earned more money than they can use! 

Your wife is correct, a functional yard takes up a lot of room.  Personally, I think you have a nice long run around the room even with the yard.  I would keep it pretty much as the latest design shows.

I don't want to sound rude, but your wife is kind of stating the obvious to a model railroader.  The only way to shrink a yard is to cut the number of tracks (from 6 to 2 as an example) or to shorten the length of all yard tracks.  Beware, though, that shortening too much may result in one or two tracks not being worth the cost of the switches to build them.

Also, as noted earlier, you can modify your "engine" area by eliminating everything but the turntable and the approach tracks.  There may be other answers, but it would help if we knew your wife's real concerns (cost, scenery space, time to build, complexity of wiring & maintenance?).

You might also show her pictures of Frank Ellison's 'Delta Lines' that he ran as a true point-to-point O gauge operation with a nice yard on each end and a middle "division point" yard.  Then turn to her and brag that you are conservatively building only one yard.  Seeing what you could (but don't) want sometimes turns the tide.  Alternatively, offer her a big section across from the yard that she can scenic and manage anyway she wants.

Chuck

@Aegis21 posted:

Dave, How do I print out a magnified section of the benchwork in scarm? I tried snapshot in scarm which didn't work for me. got the entire plan I could use photoshop but wanted to avoid the extra work.

Thanks

The only way I know how to do it is to zoom in on what you want to print and capture a screenshot. I use the Windows Snip & Sketch tool to do that. I don’t know any way to do it from SCARM or Chrome directly. I could be wrong, but  I think you get a better print zooming in for the capture vs doing the capture and then cropping.

@Aegis21 posted:

Ok I know it is getting late in the game, however my wife pointed out the yard takes up a huge amount of real estate. Other than doing away with entire yard I haven't a clue on how to shrink the yard without destroying the functionality. anyone with suggestions?

The only time it’s late in the game is after tracks have been laid and she says that. 😉 The question is how much functionality do you want? For example, if you only have 5 engines and a standard amount of cars, then 2-4 trains will be operating, leaving half or less in the yard. If you’re trying to save money on switchers, then you can reduce the number of spurs, eliminate the runaround track and if you’re content to back trains in, you can even eliminate the escape crossover. You can still break down and build up trains, just not prototypically. You can also eliminate all those whisker tracks and leave some trains parked on the mains between running sessions. A yard like yours is expensive and IMHO way more than you need, other than for appearance. If I was building it, I wouldn’t even have the roundhouse, just open whisker tracks, maybe with a dual-stall engine house, or even a single-stall. I’d have the 27” or 28” turntable and 5 yard spurs.  But then I don’t plan to break down or build up consists. I can play with it, but it’ll be later today.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

The only time it’s late in the game is after tracks have been laid and she says that. 😉 The question is how much functionality do you want? For example, if you only have 5 engines and a standard amount of cars, then 2-4 trains will be operating, leaving half or less in the yard. If you’re trying to save money on switchers, then you can reduce the number of spurs, eliminate the runaround track and if you’re content to back trains in, you can even eliminate the escape crossover. You can still break down and build up trains, just not prototypically. You can also eliminate all those whisker tracks and leave some trains parked on the mains between running sessions. A yard like yours is expensive and IMHO way more than you need, other than for appearance. If I was building it, I wouldn’t even have the roundhouse, just open whisker tracks, maybe with a dual-stall engine house, or even a single-stall. I’d have the 27” or 28” turntable and 5 yard spurs.  But then I don’t plan to break down or build up consists. I can play with it, but it’ll be later today.

Dave, Thanks for the input, no need to do anything right now. The cost of turnouts is not a consideration, as I would rather wait and have proper funding for what makes a good layout than regret moving fast and wishing I hadn't. Before my wife even chimed in I was concerned how dominate that 20'x4' flat yard area would be and would I use it as it should be used. I do love the TT & RH however if it is too much well it is too much.

John, as we always say, it’s your layout, your time and your money. 🤪 You can still reduce the size of the yard by 2 tracks and reduce the number of whisker tracks while keeping the other functionality. Maybe she just can envision the landscaping with buildings, elevations, etc., and that’s why it looks overbearing.

She can definitely envision more than I ever can

Couldn't resist downsizing a bit to see what it would look like.

Dave, It is always worth a look see.

John, I think you have the right idea.  It all doesn’t need done at once.  I started asking for planning help 4 years ago next month.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Couldn't resist downsizing a bit to see what it would look like.

That is looking good, I had at the same time moved the two main lines closer buy the yard/ wall bump. Here is that scarm file.  Would you please incorporate this change into that file so my wife can see the full effect? No rush if you decide to do it.  It also has the bridge entry cleaned up to have both angles at 60 degrees Hopefully I didn't mess up grades or anything else....

Thanks

John

John, here you go. The changes did raise the max grade to 2.8% going to the bridge, but the grades will undoubtedly change a bit as you add in the slope transitions.  People push for grades =<2%, but modern engines can do 5%, so anything =<3% is more than reasonable.

I did change some of the flex tracks because they were "weaving" in opposite directions.
I flattened the switches and spurs that you added.
I moved the escape crossover in the yard a bit, but the exact position will depend on how much room you'll actually need. Please note that it doesn't have to be long enough for your largest engine because you can always disconnect a large engine and use a switcher to pull the cars into the yard.
I fixed the lengths of the yard spurs.

Thanks Dave! Looks like there is now wiggle room. I am tempted to do away with one or two more whisker tracks. I'm actually cutting legs for benchwork in the garage! Hoping to get general ideas for layout finished enough to start on girders and top. I'm planning on making one 4' x 8' section and then see what reach is needed and where I may need to scale back or can live with the TT bump out.

Thanks for being so through, flattening the switches etc. Really appreciated!

Looking at the overall layout, the TT/RH really do make the yard dominate. I could see removing RH/TT and that would open things up a lot. However that is also losing a lot!

Don't mind my ramblings... How does anyone ever get started on a final plan???? Oh yea, they aren't as air headed as me!

Since you have room for a roundhouse and turntable, I think you should keep them if you really want them.  That is a good plan to build a section and try it out for reach, height, etc.  You are actually starting to build it!!  Mark this day on the calendar!!! 

Thanks Mark, however making saw dust isn’t building anything lol

but this will mark the first day of construction

i agree with TT/RH the access around that area seems to be a long reach for sure

A little sawdust must fall before anything is glued and screwed together! 

Yes, you would need a topside creeper for access in that area!  I know you don't want to crawl up onto the layout from a stepladder with your new knee!  I wouldn't with mine!! 

Hoping Santa brings topside creeper!

Here's yet another option that I think looks cleaner and more balanced.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Here's yet another option that I think looks cleaner and more balanced.

Yes Dave definitely cleaner and balanced! Nice job!

I might have gotten things out of balance with moving river/bridges down a bit and moving yard switch back to the left.  I am trying to keep in mind the reach factor and putting in scenery/buildings etc.

Please all take a look and add comments and definitely criticisms... Again Thanks All!

On another note all legs supports have been cut, holes drilled for 3/8-16 tee nuts and bolts for leveling. drilled to accommodate 4" bolts to allow for raisining the table up a couple inches if it seems too low. Now if I can stop procrastinating and actually decide on a final layout, then joists can be cut. I have six L-Girders cut, screwed and glued that are 10' long. So I could put together a "bench" section 48 inches wide by 10' long. I have a spare 4x8 Sheetrock which I could throw on top and check reach and work-ability. Is that a word? Thanks in advance.  John

John, I think Dave’s last plan will help with the reach.  I definitely think setting up the section with the sheet rock will help you decide on the reach and height issues.  The 4” bolts will give you some nice leeway on height.  I would suggest just building Benchwork along one Wall, lay some track, and wire it To run a train back and forth before building all the benchwork and then realizing it is way to high or too short

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, I think Dave’s last plan will help with the reach.  I definitely think setting up the section with the sheet rock will help you decide on the reach and height issues.  The 4” bolts will give you some nice leeway on height.  I would suggest just building Benchwork along one Wall, lay some track, and wire it To run a train back and forth before building all the benchwork and then realizing it is way to high or too short

Yes Mark, Dave did a great job!

Mark, you give sage advise with setting up a trial section for height and reach

@Aegis21 posted:

Yes Mark, Dave did a great job!

Mark, you give sage advise with setting up a trial section for height and reach

Thank you, John.  I have seen online, whether here or other forums or email groups in the past, where someone raised a layout larger than yours, and someone else lowered a layout larger than yours.  Certainly not a one man-Saturday afternoon job by any means.  I wouldn't wish that dilemma on anyone!! 

Nice!!!

Mark, I'm sure you mentioned it, but how high is your layout. At this time my base will be 40" and could use adjustment to go to 43"  Hoping this will be a good height with elevations and mountains. Most likely the only area that will be at baseline level is the yard and roundhouse. I also have the option to use some styrofoam to increase elevation and provide places for drainage ditches etc.

John, Remember the higher the table is the harder it is to reach over scenery. Hight can negatively affect your reach which is pushed with your yard and elevations. Just my opinion.

@Dave Ripp. posted:

John, Remember the higher the table is the harder it is to reach over scenery. Hight can negatively affect your reach which is pushed with your yard and elevations. Just my opinion.

Hi Dave,  I do not have any experience at all for making this call. What would be a good height range in your opinion? 37-40   40-43    43-46    etc???  Right now it is easy to cut down to lower the overall height. In fact I would start with all new legs at 50" or 20" I do not have an good idea. it seemed 38-42" seemed good for me sitting on a rolling stool and my wife standing I am 6' wife is 5' 1.5"

Thanks

John, when it comes to height, there are a lot of variables. Of course, you have to consider reach, but if you have to reach that often, then something probably needs fixed; a quirky switch, misaligned tracks, underweight rolling stock, etc. And you have to consider getting underneath to work on wiring, but once built, how often? Most folks seem to be comfortable with 40-42", but some folks like to look down on the operation or sit down while operating, so I've seen them as low as 36". The easiest way to judge is to take your dining room table and raise it with 2x4 blocks or something to see what's most comfortable for you. Set up some tracks and run a train back and forth. If you have a 2x4, set some tracks on that and raise one end to see about grades.

Anyway, here's a version of your latest changes. You can't just throw flex track in to make things fit. I aligned things for clearance, including moving the mains closer to the wall to get enough clearance from the yard. I also straightened the track coming off the bridge. I added a coaling and water station to the yard, but the coaling station I have is a tight fit. But, just for kicks I added a removable panel along the yard to show how you can have room for landscaping while reducing reach. The panel can be several smaller panels that would connect like those side panels on pickup truck beds. You could fill that small area behind the roundhouse the same way.

John, The layout I'm currently building is 39.5. I have no elevations and at 5-11 can reach the center which is 36 inches. Once I add scenery I suspect it will be a little tougher but my table is 6 x 20 with access to both sides. You don't  want to have to climb up to reach things as scenery gets damaged and I have a top side creeper from my old larger layout but never enjoyed dragging it around for use. I would do the 37 to 40 as this will be more comfortable to reach over things. I'm sure others will have thoughts on this to.

John, Mine is 43" high.  The top of the grade is 50" high.  I had planned on 42" and 48", but somewhere I goofed on the base measurement, so it wound up at 43.  I decided I needed another inch of clearance at the underpass, so 48 became 50.  I can measure a half dozen time with the same result and still goof things up.  With 29" deep shelves it works okay for me except that spot where I decided later on to put in the switch going off the mainline to the wye.  That is because the peninsula going to the lift up bridge is in the way.  I stood on a 2-foot high step up platform to put that switch in and it wasn't bad at all.  I am 5' 11" tall also, but less agile than Dave Ripp I would think.  That's the price I pay for always thinking of things after the fact. 

Actually I like it higher than many folks.  My N-scale layout was 50" high as I recall, although I was half my age now when I built it.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, when it comes to height, there are a lot of variables. Of course, you have to consider reach, but if you have to reach that often, then something probably needs fixed; a quirky switch, misaligned tracks, underweight rolling stock, etc. And you have to consider getting underneath to work on wiring, but once built, how often? Most folks seem to be comfortable with 40-42", but some folks like to look down on the operation or sit down while operating, so I've seen them as low as 36". The easiest way to judge is to take your dining room table and raise it with 2x4 blocks or something to see what's most comfortable for you. Set up some tracks and run a train back and forth. If you have a 2x4, set some tracks on that and raise one end to see about grades.

Anyway, here's a version of your latest changes. You can't just throw flex track in to make things fit. I aligned things for clearance, including moving the mains closer to the wall to get enough clearance from the yard. I also straightened the track coming off the bridge. I added a coaling and water station to the yard, but the coaling station I have is a tight fit. But, just for kicks I added a removable panel along the yard to show how you can have room for landscaping while reducing reach. The panel can be several smaller panels that would connect like those side panels on pickup truck beds. You could fill that small area behind the roundhouse the same way.

Thanks Dave for your input on layout height much appreciated. Great to have as many view points as possible.

A double thanks on straightening out the stuff I mess up with cheating flex track. Great idea with the drop down panels in front of yard. It appears there is still enough walking room and much needed tabletop room in that area. I would be tempted to suare off the TT area by extending that drop down panel(s) to the left another 2 feet I Am hoping to have time today to put up an L-grider section with a 4x8 sheet of either plywood or sheet rock, to check reach and height.

Aggain Thanks for all your work and input

@Dave Ripp. posted:

John, The layout I'm currently building is 39.5. I have no elevations and at 5-11 can reach the center which is 36 inches. Once I add scenery I suspect it will be a little tougher but my table is 6 x 20 with access to both sides. You don't  want to have to climb up to reach things as scenery gets damaged and I have a top side creeper from my old larger layout but never enjoyed dragging it around for use. I would do the 37 to 40 as this will be more comfortable to reach over things. I'm sure others will have thoughts on this to.

Hi Dave, I am a bull in a china closet, so I get the "scenery gets damaged" statement. Hoping to get a top side creeper as that will be the only way to work on the layout passed 30-36" reach. So I will have to wait and see how that will reall work out for e. Have read lots of pros and cons on creeper. I am taking into account for the creeper footprint with my bench work legs and bracing. I am leaning toward 40" as ground zero at this point. Hopefully I will get a section thrown up to have a good test of reach and visual perspesctive.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.  John

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, Mine is 43" high.  The top of the grade is 50" high.  I had planned on 42" and 48", but somewhere I goofed on the base measurement, so it wound up at 43.  I decided I needed another inch of clearance at the underpass, so 48 became 50.  I can measure a half dozen time with the same result and still goof things up.  With 29" deep shelves it works okay for me except that spot where I decided later on to put in the switch going off the mainline to the wye.  That is because the peninsula going to the lift up bridge is in the way.  I stood on a 2-foot high step up platform to put that switch in and it wasn't bad at all.  I am 5' 11" tall also, but less agile than Dave Ripp I would think.  That's the price I pay for always thinking of things after the fact. 

Actually I like it higher than many folks.  My N-scale layout was 50" high as I recall, although I was half my age now when I built it.

Mark you layout is coming along fantastically! Cannot believe your shelves are 29 inches. Comparing our layouts, it seems I am trying to cram too much track into any given area. Track per square foot on my layout has to be a lot more than yours, yet your layout appears much more functional and realistic. You are doing a great job!

Here is the start of the room. So far lighting for the main section is complete. Used dimmable LED fixtures, from Homedepot or DIY conversion of old 8' fixtures. Also made a jig for using my small drill press to drill out legs for tee nuts and 4" carriage bolts. Hopefully more to follow!

I think other than the yard area your plan doesn't have any more track per square foot than mine.  You have plenty of room for scenery and buildings.

The room looks great and ready for a layout!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

I think other than the yard area your plan doesn't have any more track per square foot than mine.  You have plenty of room for scenery and buildings.

The room looks great and ready for a layout!!

This has always been my achilles heel, visualizing the potential in a space. Maybe when track gets laid down I will get a better feel for the scenery and terrain. It is funny, I keep on putting buildings in front of track as if the track were a road.... LOL I need to clean out some more boxes, just am running out of room. I am hoping to use under table storage, however that doesn't help during construction. That old work bench in the back is 38" high and I am leaning towards that for table base height

I hear ya on both counts, John!!  I had a terrible time trying to draw something to give Dave an idea of what I thought I was visualizing.  And then I got building and realized most of it wouldn't fit anyway.  You wouldn't believe all the stuff I have crammed under my layout just so I cam move around in the small people space.