Benchwork - Wiring - adding elevations

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, I don't think it is a poor excuse.  Not even having space for a turntable, the wye I shoehorned in will have to suffice for turning my engines.  Turning trains, well...that went out the window with the Downtown Pittsburgh to-scale Pennsylvania Station!!  Just kidding about Penn Station, but I think you get the idea.  I recall how narrow your room is; not much wider than my 11x11 room.  I can turn a caboose on the wye so the conductor is facing the correct direction once the engine is turned.

Thanks Mark, Yes the room is roughly 12' wide and even with the "L" area it was still difficult to incorporate loop backs without giving them the entire layout so to speak.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, if you don't already have 2 dual-track bridges, you might consider placing separate single bridges across the entryway and not raise the inside mainline. The outside mainline would still have a grade, but the inside mainline would be at the same level as the yard, TT and town across from the yard. This would allow you to build a level town on that side of the layout between the elevated set of tracks along the back wall and the aisle. As it is now, you're going to have tracks on a grade going through the town from the bridge to the crossover on the left. If you build a custom curved bridge, you could eliminate the curve after the bridge. I believe Mike CT built a nice curved deck bridge on his layout. Just more food for thought.

Sorry to say I already had the dual bridge and had not thought about two single bridges, even thouh I saw how good they worked out for Mark on his layout! Sometimes the trees are hard to see when looking through the forest. or something like that...

Well even though I have the dual track bridge, it may still be worth investigating your excellent idea.

John, at one point I had a single track on my double bridge and put a pedestrian walk way where the other track use to be. I then used a single bridge that was for my upper loop. Here is a video you can see it at the very end.

Found a photo of what I was talking about.

I hope it helps! Enjoy whatever you decide!

John,

If you are interested, I have a new Atlas single track bridge and could really use the double. If you’d like to swap ( with me paying you something on top because the double track is more expensive), I’d be interested.

@RubinG posted:

John,

If you are interested, I have a new Atlas single track bridge and could really use the double. If you’d like to swap ( with me paying you something on top because the double track is more expensive), I’d be interested.

I have modified it with aluminum plate and drilled holes in the metal braces that cam with it to adapt the lift mechanism

it originally was a single and I purchased the add on to make it a double

you could do the same

thanks for the offer

@Aegis21 posted:

any suggestions to fit in loop backs are still welcome

Can you post the latest SCARM file…I may have an idea

@Edward G posted:

Can you post the latest SCARM file…I may have an idea

Here is the latest scarm file (I hope I remembered how to upload it)

@mike g. posted:

John, at one point I had a single track on my double bridge and put a pedestrian walk way where the other track use to be. I then used a single bridge that was for my upper loop. Here is a video you can see it at the very end.

Found a photo of what I was talking about.

I hope it helps! Enjoy whatever you decide!

Great Idea to use the bridge as it is on layout and add lower bridge.

@Aegis21 posted:

Yes there isn’t a loop back, that was the excuse, oh I mean the reason for the turntable

might be a poor excuse or remedy, however it is what it is as of now

any suggestions to fit in loop backs are still welcome

Here is an idea I came up with for a reverse loop. Since it requires a minimum amount of change, I would not build it right now but put it in your back pocket and if in six months or five years, you decide you’d like to have a reverse loop you can pull it out. You know that at least you have one idea that could work. The idea is to put an elevated viaduct along the back wall on top of the upper level and to loop it around the roundhouse, the turntable and the yard. The inspiration comes from the New Jersey HiRailers layout, they use a lot of elevated tracks and it looks absolutely fantastic. It does require another lift bridge across the work area, and I know you had concerns about if another bridge would effect the ability to follow a train when you’re operating. Right now the track plan is just a rough proof of concept and needs a bit more shaping if you actually wanted to use it. The one issue is the mounting of the supports for the bridges with your yard tracks so tight together, there is just no room.

A couple of other items I noticed on your plan that you should be aware of: The curve Switch, by coaling that starts the yard lead, is a O72/54, and the switch to coaling is a O64. When they were first introduced to the plan, back in January 2021, the curved switch was an O96/72 and the other Switch was a O72, don’t know if this was an oversight, or if it was a planed change. If you’re going to change it back then, you also want to change the new curved switch that you just added, to keep the path to the yard at O72.

The spur that services freight station #5 is a switchback. If you wanted to have direct access, you have to move the crossover to in front of bakery #10.

Everything else looks great....

@Edward G posted:

Here is an idea I came up with for a reverse loop. Since it requires a minimum amount of change, I would not build it right now but put it in your back pocket and if in six months or five years, you decide you’d like to have a reverse loop you can pull it out. You know that at least you have one idea that could work. The idea is to put an elevated viaduct along the back wall on top of the upper level and to loop it around the roundhouse, the turntable and the yard. The inspiration comes from the New Jersey HiRailers layout, they use a lot of elevated tracks and it looks absolutely fantastic. It does require another lift bridge across the work area, and I know you had concerns about if another bridge would effect the ability to follow a train when you’re operating. Right now the track plan is just a rough proof of concept and needs a bit more shaping if you actually wanted to use it. The one issue is the mounting of the supports for the bridges with your yard tracks so tight together, there is just no room. This is where my lack of thinking in 3D shows through for sure. Using elevated track or elevated buildings just escapes my vision. That is definitly my big hurdle with this project. There are definite issues that would need to be addressed, however the concept shows what can be imagined and then take one issue at a time. I will keep this in mind as I sort things out and get to building something. Analysis paralysis is setting into this project.... Great pic and concepts

A couple of other items I noticed on your plan that you should be aware of: The curve Switch, by coaling that starts the yard lead, is a O72/54, and the switch to coaling is a O64. When they were first introduced to the plan, back in January 2021, the curved switch was an O96/72 and the other Switch was a O72, don’t know if this was an oversight, or if it was a planed change. If you’re going to change it back then, you also want to change the new curved switch that you just added, to keep the path to the yard at O72. Yes these became issues of oversight as I was just laying track out to get a visual of the track plan, I had the 064 switch and 072/054 switches on hand and forgot they needed to be replaced with 072's

The spur that services freight station #5 is a switchback. If you wanted to have direct access, you have to move the crossover to in front of bakery #10. That area is tight to say the least and I am not sure how to practically accomplish moving it in front of bakery without losing street or bakery.

Everything else looks great....

It appears as if I may have some time for the railroad now that our daughter is settling in her new place. There is always, Dad can you hang this or that stuff, but overall I was able to do some work on the layout.

  I have replaced the 064 switch and the 072/054 curved switch with 072 and 096/072 respectively. With that house cleaning behind me, I am thinking about starting to elevating the tracks per drawing and then evaluate and look for how trains may operate and what operations are possible and what I is not practical.  To begin the process, is it better to cut all the roadbed and sub-road to use for elevation, or just sub-road as I have homosote for road bed, use which needs to be cut from 4x8 panels?  Thoughts anyone???

John, I’m glad your daughter is pretty well settled in.  Both our daughters stay at home with us when they weren’t away at college until they got married, so I was saved doing a lot of the tasks your daughter asks for.  On the other hand, since both couples bought houses within 2 miles of us, I do get involved in repairs occasionally.

I don’t know that I can see a benefit in choosing one method over the other for the roadbed.  I did mine in sections, so many feet of plywood then covered most of that with Homasote-cork then moved on.  Maybe there are others who can state a benefit of doing it one way over the other, I don’t know.  🤷‍♂️

I don't think I'd cut roadbed until you're sure exactly the path the track will take.  Obviously, the sub-roadbed will be cut to fit the surface I would imagine.  My roadbed was easy, it was the foam roadbed, so it just got laid as the track got laid.

I’m using tubular track John and I cut carpet padding for the track bed. I’m not ready for ballast yet but I’m pleased with the sound deadening.

Jay

For just doing a visual. I would just prop the elevated section of track up using books, paint cans, scrap wood or what’s ever handy. Wood today is at a premium to just cut up and then have to change what you’ve done.

Thanks to Mark, John, Jay and Dave for the input, it is WELL appreciated! I will hold off on cutting road bed and will plan to go with homosote for now. (Haven't cut enough to be put off by the mess yet) And I will follow using clutter I have around the house to temporarily elevate the track sections. I have some lionel trestle pieces, even if they are not the correct height, it will give me what I am lacking, an approximate visual.  Again thanks All!

Ok I have made some changes with town/track placement. Also thanks for the use of stuff lying around to use to temporarily elevate the track for a better visual concept of the layout. With the layout elevated, some alternative ideas came to mind. I moved the two main lines to allow a larger center area to be open for a town. My first impression is basically a good feeling overall. There are sure to be draw backs, however the pluses are having one of the main lines be more of a straight line and more flexibility with streets and buildings in that area. Here are some pics to show the track placement and a long version of main street. I could have buildings and streets perpendicular to what is shown in these pics. All help, comments are needed for sure.

Here are some more pics

John, I like what you have done with the temporary raised track setup.  I like the last couple photographs best with the Isaly's  and two-story brick building out front, forming corners of a street perpendicular to the track.  Skewing the streets at an angle to the tracks would provide for more interest, but I don't think you have room for that between the tracks.  I think it is looking good.

Thanks Mark for the encouragement and input I will play around with curving a street and angling if possible

that maybe possible with using girder bridges or something to utilize the space under the elevated track

Hello All,  Sorry I have been absent from the forum for such a long time. Hoping now to get back to working on the layout. As an update I have attached two pics of the present layout plans. The only difference is the number of tracks in the yard. ( five vs six) I feel like I have, with my limited experience, done the best I could. Although I know it can use a lot of help. At this point my wants are a small town, coal mine, hobo area, farm land, passenger stations, junk yard, and a boat launch. Not sure where each would go or if they are all possible. All suggestions are sorely needed! Any layout changes, suggestions for town, hobo area, stations etc. are more than WELCOME.

@Aegis21 posted:

Hello All,  Sorry I have been absent from the forum for such a long time. Hoping now to get back to working on the layout. As an update I have attached two pics of the present layout plans. The only difference is the number of tracks in the yard. ( five vs six) I feel like I have, with my limited experience, done the best I could. Although I know it can use a lot of help. At this point my wants are a small town, coal mine, hobo area, farm land, passenger stations, junk yard, and a boat launch. Not sure where each would go or if they are all possible. All suggestions are sorely needed! Any layout changes, suggestions for town, hobo area, stations etc. are more than WELCOME.

I'm in the same boat John. Sometimes life just gets in the way. I do like what you've accomplished.

Hi John!  Welcome back!  I do not see a difference between the two drawings except the lead to the turntable isn't connected which I know is an oversight.  My thought is, "Build it, and they will come"  I know, bad joke. 

@Mark Boyce posted:

Hi John!  Welcome back!  I do not see a difference between the two drawings except the lead to the turntable isn't connected which I know is an oversight.  My thought is, "Build it, and they will come"  I know, bad joke. 

There are 5 tracks instead of 4 heading over to the TT.

John, hopefully you’ll connect the top 2 yard tracks to the TT, one for incoming , the other for outgoing, otherwise you’ll have to wait.

@Dave Ripp. posted:

I'm in the same boat John. Sometimes life just gets in the way. I do like what you've accomplished.

Thanks Dave for understanding and compliment, although compliments should go to all the members who have so graciously spent their time to help me get anywhere. Thanks

@Mark Boyce posted:

Hi John!  Welcome back!  I do not see a difference between the two drawings except the lead to the turntable isn't connected which I know is an oversight.  My thought is, "Build it, and they will come"  I know, bad joke. 

Thanks Mark, yes the only difference is the number of yard tracks. And I will restart the build! Thanks

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There are 5 tracks instead of 4 heading over to the TT.

Good eye John!!!

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, hopefully you’ll connect the top 2 yard tracks to the TT, one for incoming , the other for outgoing, otherwise you’ll have to wait.

I did not connect the tracks hoping someone would advise which tacks would be the best to connect and why. Also I am not sure if the yard tracks should switch between them more and if the track closest to the isle should be connected to the yard track next to it? Thanks in advance for any and all help

I have made some track spacers using fusion 360 and my 3d printer. The are 3.5" centers, 4.25" and 4.5" with  adjustable pencil holders to outline here to cut the plywood or homosote. I'll post a pick a bit later, need to unload groceries lol

John, some thoughts.

One reason for crossovers in a yard is so a train can pull into a yard with dead-end branches and the engine can "escape", otherwise it's locked in by the cars. Another reason is that some yards are very long and crossovers allow switching engines to travel less distances when configuring consists or escape too if they "pull" several cars in instead of "backing" them in.

Unfortunately, you have a few obstacles that preclude adding such crossovers. Your use of the 4-way switch at the front of the yard means there isn't enough space between the 2 inner green/blue branches to add any combination of Ross switches. You could add crossovers to the green/red and blue/yellow branches, but you'd have to move the yard closer to the aisle and I believe the whole point to the changes you made by reducing the number of yard branches was to allow more space for buildings and roads. And, even if you tried that, you'd then have to reconfigure the curved switch section on the left to keep it connected to the rest of that run. I believe we discussed this a long time ago before you decided to add buildings, etc., there.

IMHO, you need to have at least 2 branches connected to the TT. The idea is that either the lt blue branch or the red branch would be used for a train to pull in. The engine would then be able to disconnect and use the turntable to either go to the RH or or use the other branch to return the yard for further service, in other words, "escape". If a train pulls in on the lt blue branch, a switcher would then move the cars off that branch. You could get by with just the one branch connected to the TT, but then you'd have to wait for it to be cleared before an engine could use it again.

In order to do this though, you may have to reduce the size of the yellow branch and move the TT/RH down a bit like shown. I know you like to use flex track, but if you do, make sure you have enough straight track connected to the TT so engines don't have problems getting on and off. I don't remember if you already have an RH, but if you don't and could change to a 3-stall RH without the extensions instead, you could do more with that area and get a bit more room in the yard and maybe connect more branches to the TT. Just something to consider.

engine first

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, some thoughts.

One reason for crossovers in a yard is so a train can pull into a yard with dead-end branches and the engine can "escape", otherwise it's locked in by the cars. Another reason is that some yards are very long and crossovers allow switching engines to travel less distances when configuring consists or escape too if they "pull" several cars in instead of "backing" them in.

Unfortunately, you have a few obstacles that preclude adding such crossovers. Your use of the 4-way switch at the front of the yard means there isn't enough space between the 2 inner green/blue branches to add any combination of Ross switches. You could add crossovers to the green/red and blue/yellow branches, but you'd have to move the yard closer to the aisle and I believe the whole point to the changes you made by reducing the number of yard branches was to allow more space for buildings and roads. And, even if you tried that, you'd then have to reconfigure the curved switch section on the left to keep it connected to the rest of that run. I believe we discussed this a long time ago before you decided to add buildings, etc., there. First, Thanks Dave, for ALL your help and great recommendations  with this build.

IMHO, you need to have at least 2 branches connected to the TT. The idea is that either the lt blue branch or the red branch would be used for a train to pull in. The engine would then be able to disconnect and use the turntable to either go to the RH or or use the other branch to return the yard for further service, in other words, "escape". If a train pulls in on the lt blue branch, a switcher would then move the cars off that branch. You could get by with just the one branch connected to the TT, but then you'd have to wait for it to be cleared before an engine could use it again. Yes minimum of two branches connected to the TT sounds like sage advice.

In order to do this though, you may have to reduce the size of the yellow branch and move the TT/RH down a bit like shown. I know you like to use flex track, but if you do, make sure you have enough straight track connected to the TT so engines don't have problems getting on and off. Using flex track is only to get the paper layout "working" for elevations and give me a place to compare things to, I can imagine using flex track will be difficult for me to make nice smooth curves on the actual layout. I really prefer using standard dimension track for the build. I don't remember if you already have an RH, but if you don't and could change to a 3-stall RH without the extensions instead, you could do more with that area and get a bit more room in the yard and maybe connect more branches to the TT. Just something to consider. Luckily I have not purchased or decided on a RH yet, so using the less is more theory, a three stall RH sounds good. Will allow things to be more realistic and less congested and keep the crammed-in look to a minimum.

engine first

Here are a couple of different versions, 1 with the current RH and the other with a 3-stall RH. As you can see, they also have "escape" crossovers in the yard. I didn't have your latest SCARM file, so I don't know how well they fit with the latest space. Mostly just food for thought at this point.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Here are a couple of different versions, 1 with the current RH and the other with a 3-stall RH. As you can see, they also have "escape" crossovers in the yard. I didn't have your latest SCARM file, so I don't know how well they fit with the latest space. Mostly just food for thought at this point.

Hi Dave,  I really like the second layout with the 3 stall RH. I'll post the latest drawing I have so you can see how badly I have mangled things up. I am hoping the grades all work and I haven't created too many places that have interference issues. Since I am using a macbook for 99% of what I do, and scarm is not mac compatible, I'll transfer layout  file over from my old pc and post it. I think I did this correctly????

Here are some pics of my home made track spacers and tracing blocks. You can put pencils in the black holders and a small rubber band clamps them in place for height adjustment and the slots allow for whatever distance you would like to use. This one spaces track out to 4.25" but I can make them for any distance. I have 3.5" and 4.5" spacers all printed out.

If there is any interest, I think I can post the fusion360 file or separate stl file for these three sizes.

John, your track spacers are really slick!  👍🏻 My track laying is all done.  I laid the track with a ruler and by eye.  It would be easier to do it using spacers.

John,

Wow! That spacer design is pretty ingenious and surely patentable !! (Although the cost of patents is outrageous these days)  Congratulations to you on making this very useful device.   

With a slight modification the track spacers could come in handy to trace out the track for cutting the sub roadbed!

For a single mainline that is, they are perfect for a double mainline as is!

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, your track spacers are really slick!  👍🏻 My track laying is all done.  I laid the track with a ruler and by eye.  It would be easier to do it using spacers.

Thanks Mark, it sounds like it will be worth the time to post it in 3D drawings.

@Bruce Brown posted:

John,

Wow! That spacer design is pretty ingenious and surely patentable !! (Although the cost of patents is outrageous these days)  Congratulations to you on making this very useful device.   

would never patent, this is giving back for all the help everyone on this forum has freely given. Sounds like it will be worth putting on the 3D files