Benchwork - Wiring - adding elevations

@RubinG posted:

I actually prefer small molive power like a PRR H-6 2-8-0 or G5 4-6-0 or a NYC  4-6-0, but even in that case standard scale passenger cars may be 18” long and give you a hard time, especially if your vertical transitions are too sharp. I also have a bunch of of 60 foot (16”) shorties, but even those are 60% again as long as a 40 Foot scale box car. But on the other hand, I’m finding that 072 curves are tough to work with, even though I have more space to work in than I’ve ever had before. I guess the bottom line is try what you want to, see how it works and be flexible. Have fun and enjoy your railroad.
Rubin

Sounds like sage advice! I was fortunate enough to maintain 072 curves on the two main lines. And some spurs are 054. I have so much to learn on clearances with the different length of cars and now engines. I also like the smaller engines as my layout is not huge, so it seems like a better fit.

Thanks for the input,

John

So I am FINALLY getting something done on the layout. My fear of messing things up, over came the reality of progressing with the project. Not sure if this was a good decision or bad, however I will at least find out! The track plan is done (for now) and I will be laying track per the drawing. This way I can outline and cookie cut the roadway and elevate the track accordingly. Again, I do not know if this is correct, however at least something is getting done. The present tabletop is 1/2" plywood, then I have homasote boards and cork road bed. I am tempted to use both, homasote for sound and cork for bevel and ballasting. Any thoughts from anyone would be greatly appreciated. Here are a few pics on the present progress. I have been making brick pavers to use as a town main street with trolley running in both directions. These are small samples to give me an idea on how it will look before running the 3D printer for days and wasting filament to boot! Second pic shows two main lines which will need to align with the Atlas bridge. The pavers shown in the fifth pic will extend to the side walk on each side for a full road handling vehicle traffic in two directions and parking on each side. The vehicles shown are in the parked position. Now to print a couple of larger pieces to show full street.

Sounds like a good plan laying track. For yard areas and sidings. I would place the track directly on the homesote. No need to have a nice ballast profile in the yard or on a siding.
I like the look of the  pavers. You see a lot of layouts opt for the concrete look. Nice job of framing the track with the 3D pieces.

I like the brick!  And I understand your Paralysis by Analysis - it is intimidating to constantly do things we’ve never done before!  But that’s also the joy of this hobby - learning and growing.  I’m also finally moving ahead on my layout.  Choose to have a bias for action!

John, I agree with Dave to just use Homasote in the yard.  I used cork over Homasote on the mainline for the ballast profile.  I like the brick for the street running.  Very nice!

@Dave_C posted:

Sounds like a good plan laying track. For yard areas and sidings. I would place the track directly on the homesote. No need to have a nice ballast profile in the yard or on a siding.
I like the look of the  pavers. You see a lot of layouts opt for the concrete look. Nice job of framing the track with the 3D pieces.

Thanks for the homosote advice and I hope the pavers come out as good as I hope.

@Hannibal-St Joseph RR posted:

I like the brick!  And I understand your Paralysis by Analysis - it is intimidating to constantly do things we’ve never done before!  But that’s also the joy of this hobby - learning and growing.  I’m also finally moving ahead on my layout.  Choose to have a bias for action!

Thanks again for another paver vote. The paralysis comes in when I cannot picture how things will look and feel for anything. That is why I got sidetracked doing the pavers, just needed to see if that was a workable solution to tracks on the street. And I agree on the action part for sure! Again Thanks for the feedback

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, I agree with Dave to just use Homasote in the yard.  I used cork over Homasote on the mainline for the ballast profile.  I like the brick for the street running.  Very nice!

Thanks Mark for your feedback. I will certainly use everyone's advice on the flat homosote yard. And it seems the pavers will be a good solution with all the positive feedback. I do tend to stray as I was pinting some paver pieces with man hole covers LOL Again thanks to everyone taking their time to comment and give their advice! VERY much appreciated!

Man hole covers are good!!  👍🏻👍🏻

Got tied up working on a rental property, and boy have I slowed down over the years, geeze

Well I finally made it to the NSLHS and got a 30 degree crossing and the rest of the cork road bed I will need. btw NSLHS not so local hobby shop in Zelienople Pa. about 45 minute drive. Sure do miss Mercer Junction!!!!

Now to continue with the layout build.

I’m glad you got the crossing, John.  Yes that is my NSLHS too.  It takes me about 45 minutes to get there as well, though fewer miles since I use back roads and a secondary highway, RT 68.  

Well the crossing worked great so far, Actually getting track squared, aligned and cut for "final" layout design. Seems like nothing is final in this hobby lol Just when I got a good head of steam, the boiler springs a leak in the form of Covid-19. I'm in the forth day with symptoms and meds, starting to feel well enough to type this note. So  it is a set back but recoverable.

While I have this downtime, I was hoping people will advise on my next quandry. I have 1/2" ply down with track on it and will have it in "final" place soon, not sure how to do the homosote layer. The section of the layout that is a flat yard is easy, just slide homosote under track. My issue arises with the sections that have elevated lines. Do I take up track, lay homosote down, lay track down again to mark for cookie cutter. Or do I cookie cutter plywood and use that as template for cutting homosote. Homosote is purely for sound deadening. I am thinking of using cork roadbed directly under track. I hope this is coherently written, as my wife says I haven't been coherent for several days.

IMHO, there is no need to use Homasote on the elevated (strip) sections. Just cork roadbed is perfectly fine. That's what I do. Because your 2nd level may have a relatively small surface area for sound transmission, Homasote would be an unnecessary overkill.

I agree with Bruce. No need for more than cork on the elevated sections.

Hope you make a full recovery from Covid. Been there done that 3 times.....none were fun at all.

Bob

John, It sounds like you got a bade case of it, but are slowly getting better.  I'm sorry.

You have an excellent question.  I have seen where some folks have been so exact in their cookie cutter process that plywood/Homasote/cork/track all form perfect curves.  Mine certainly never turns out that way, though I have a lot of trouble controlling the saber saw to begin with.  I did a lo of it with a hand keyhole saw, but my layout is a lot smaller than yours.  I tried to make my cookie cutter plywood extra wide to take into account 'slop', that is where the upper layers don't line up.  Also I thought I would have something to attach scenery to.  I then laid out the track again to mark how I wanted to cut the Homasote.  Hopefully there wouldn't be as much slop.  That didn't always work out as hoped.  After Jeff @ScoutingDad showed where He made trapezoids of plywood to fit to make the curves, I tried that.  It turned out not bad for me.  All said, I think I was in the same quandary as you.

If I do another layout, I'm not going to use both Homasote and cork, much like Bruce wrote.  In fact, I ran out of cork on this layout, and just went with the Homasote until I used it up too.  I'm not going to mess with grades either.  I'll just work on one level.

@Bruce Brown posted:

IMHO, there is no need to use Homasote on the elevated (strip) sections. Just cork roadbed is perfectly fine. That's what I do. Because your 2nd level may have a relatively small surface area for sound transmission, Homasote would be an unnecessary overkill.

Bruce,

Thanks for the advice which makes perfect sense. Not much of the drum effect on elevated sections.

@RSJB18 posted:

I agree with Bruce. No need for more than cork on the elevated sections.

Hope you make a full recovery from Covid. Been there done that 3 times.....none were fun at all.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thanks for affirming Bruces advice. As for going through this 3 times, I cannot imagine. Hope you have a clean bill of health. May God Bless You

Thanks

John

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, It sounds like you got a bade case of it, but are slowly getting better.  I'm sorry.

You have an excellent question.  I have seen where some folks have been so exact in their cookie cutter process that plywood/Homasote/cork/track all form perfect curves.  Mine certainly never turns out that way, though I have a lot of trouble controlling the saber saw to begin with.  I did a lo of it with a hand keyhole saw, but my layout is a lot smaller than yours.  I tried to make my cookie cutter plywood extra wide to take into account 'slop', that is where the upper layers don't line up.  Also I thought I would have something to attach scenery to.  I then laid out the track again to mark how I wanted to cut the Homasote.  Hopefully there wouldn't be as much slop.  That didn't always work out as hoped.  After Jeff @ScoutingDad showed where He made trapezoids of plywood to fit to make the curves, I tried that.  It turned out not bad for me.  All said, I think I was in the same quandary as you.

If I do another layout, I'm not going to use both Homasote and cork, much like Bruce wrote.  In fact, I ran out of cork on this layout, and just went with the Homasote until I used it up too.  I'm not going to mess with grades either.  I'll just work on one level.

Hi Mark,

I am getting better, and glad for all help my wonderful has been through this ordeal.

Sounds like Bruce, Bob and yourself are all in agreement with using cork on elevations. I question my ability to use the saber saw for cookie cutter curves. Haven't used saber saw in a while, lately its been jig saw. I will heed the having something to adhere scenery to, as this is where I am totally in the dark. Making scenery , walls, hills, cliffs, distance from track, distance from curves. I will have to keep my passenger cars and largest loco out to check for clearences. I do have the NMRA clearance plate which I will use for the tunnel.

Again thanks for the directional advice. Now to get on the right track and continue the build. Next quest will be to roughly outine/imagine area's for painting backdrops. I might attempt my own, if it doesn't work out well then I can always redo with another plan.

Thanks

John

John,

Feel better. As to the backgrounds, it’s really a good idea to put the backgrounds on Masonite , framed by 1x2’s rather than directly on the drywall. There’ve been numerous articles on how to do this in MR, CTT and any number of Kalmbach books. It’s really hard to beat the quality of backdrops available from LARC, Backdrops.com and others, but they get pricey, especially if you’re trying to cover 20 foot walls, like I am. Also, I’m still trying to finalize my track plan before I order the backdrops, but at least I’m making progress on benchwork.

im looking forward to seeing pics of your layout.
Rubin

As I am re-reading the posts, I noticed that there was no mention of sealing the roadbed, whether cork or homasote, with a coat of flat grey paint, to prevent the roadbed from drying out over time. This used to be standard advice. Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Thanks,

Rubin

@RubinG posted:

As I am re-reading the posts, I noticed that there was no mention of sealing the roadbed, whether cork or homasote, with a coat of flat grey paint, to prevent the roadbed from drying out over time. This used to be standard advice. Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

Thanks,

Rubin

I guess you can paint but I didn’t see any benefit.  The cork gets covered with ballast and glue, and the rests gets some form of ground cover.  I did paint the base of the table and any cover like homasote with a sandy color paint to help blend in any small areas that show through the ground cover, but this was purely cosmetic - not to prevent any drying.

The only reason I painted the cork and top of Homasote on my current layout gray was because I wasn’t going to be ballasting for some time, so I thought it would look better in the interim.  I have never painted any of it on previous layouts.

Hi John, I am sorry I haven't been here for a while, but I really love what you're doing! As for Homasote on the upper level I am with the rest of the guys! I would still use cork or foam roadbed to keep the noise down. With the work you have done so far, I know you will do fine with a jig and Saber saw will be perfect!  I want you to know that I am fallowing you as you're asking a lot of questions, I was never smart enough to ask and would have saved me time and $$$$! Who knows there might be other one's I never thought about!

Side note I do have a question, what is the brand of 3D printer do you have? Just in case I get a little extra $$ from our house sale! LOL

I used the Rust-O-Leum flecked gray garage floor paint on my roadbed, whether cork or foam.  It helps hide any divots in the ballast and looks pretty good while ballasting is pending.

Hi John, I ment.to ask you what 3D printer would you recommend for someone who has never done anything like that?

@mike g. posted:

Hi John, I ment.to ask you what 3D printer would you recommend for someone who has never done anything like that?

Hi Mike,

First I have EXTREMELY Limited experience and overall knowledge of the current products available. I can say what I have I am overly thrilled to have. I was very fortunate to take advantage of a temporary over stock problem with one of the distributors and get a creality CR-10S pro for 160.00 bucks. That was a steal at the time and may still be a geart deal if you could find it. At the time I was recovering from knee surgery and had lots of time to learn proper calibrations and alignments for this unit. along with adding upgrades that I feel should be standard (which at this time maybe standard/stock features) Tying the two z-axis drive screws with a toothed belt to keep each side in sync. A BL touch unit for z-axsis heigth measurements are the two huge ones for the CR10. I did find very small objects were a challenge to print with details intact, so for items that are real small detailed I purchased a resin printed which I have played around with, and it does a great job. That one is an eglegoo Mars 3  resin printer. For the couple of items I have printed the detail is spectacular. There are learning curves for using the software to design, then the slicing software ans the printing software.

Basically I am very happy with the two purchases, and like anything else time spent learning pays huge dividends. The PLA filament printer is great for making anything larger, the resin printer is great for small detail items like crates, rooftop duct work etc. I went with water soluable resin which is still smelley and hazardous to work with, to do it over again. I would do the filament printer and get to know that and then decide if you need small detail parts that are beyond the pla printers capabilities. A decent printer will make or break your experience with 3D printing if the time is not put in.

That is the best I can say as I am not an expert, just can relay my experiences.

John

@KarlDL posted:

I used the Rust-O-Leum flecked gray garage floor paint on my roadbed, whether cork or foam.  It helps hide any divots in the ballast and looks pretty good while ballasting is pending.

That is extremely helpful info! Thanks

@mike g. posted:

Hi John, I am sorry I haven't been here for a while, but I really love what you're doing! As for Homasote on the upper level I am with the rest of the guys! I would still use cork or foam roadbed to keep the noise down. With the work you have done so far, I know you will do fine with a jig and Saber saw will be perfect!  I want you to know that I am fallowing you as you're asking a lot of questions, I was never smart enough to ask and would have saved me time and $$$$! Who knows there might be other one's I never thought about!

Side note I do have a question, what is the brand of 3D printer do you have? Just in case I get a little extra $$ from our house sale! LOL

Talk about not being here, LOL I have been the King of missing member... Yes my lack of knowledge on this hobby is immense to say the least. I have the tendency to mess things up when it comes to saber saw work, hopefully  it won't be so bad this time around...

Thanks John, I have been doing some studying this morning and think the PLA is the way for me to start. Here is what I am looking at right now, but that could change by the time I get moved and a train room up!

Bambu Lab A1 Combo

I have spent all day researching them and this one seams to come up as the easiest to set up and use! Plus reading all the reviews and tech remarks Bambu Lab sure seams to stand behind their products!

Thanks again for your input and when I get one I will probably bother you even more! LOL

As I now have 5 kit built buildings that I made to take off the roofs or whole floors, someone just over the weekend wrote that I should think about getting a 3D printer as well.  I have been following modelers who use them for some time.  The right one would probably pay for itself over buying details I don’t have the skills to scratch build.  We will see.

@Mark Boyce posted:

As I now have 5 kit built buildings that I made to take off the roofs or whole floors, someone just over the weekend wrote that I should think about getting a 3D printer as well.  I have been following modelers who use them for some time.  The right one would probably pay for itself over buying details I don’t have the skills to scratch build.  We will see.

Hi Mark,

For my 2 cents, If you are looking to add detail items to scenes then a resin printer is the way to go. Any item with detail that length or width is less than 2 to 3 inches resin is a must. Building walls, street pavers, windows, doors are all possible and more practical with a filament printer (pla) I have done a lot with the pla printer (the chimney I sent you for your building is an example of pla quality and detail) Resin details and quality for small items is fantastic, however I am shy of the caustic nature and precautions that are a necessity of resin printing. I haven't done too much resin printing for that reason, plus I am not close to that stage of my layout. Your kit building abilities are fantastic and you would do well designing and doing your own kits. Or adding/expanding or changing an existing kit.

my 2 cents

John

Well I have a good amount of track laid down for getting cookie cutter ready to cut the elevated sections of track. Once I have the cuts drawn, I will remove track, plywood and make cuts per track tracing. Now will also be the time to work on the backdrop with plywood removed and walls made accessible. I have for 80% of layout blue painted walls as a backdrop and several people mentioned I should be using Masonite and 1x2's supporting the Masonite for backdrop painting. What is/are the downsides to using the walls as a canvas? I will be putting up an 9' section of Masonite, in the back room between layout and fish/pump room. which will be removable to access the back area's in that section.

Thanks in Advance

John

@Aegis21 posted:

Well I have a good amount of track laid down for getting cookie cutter ready to cut the elevated sections of track. Once I have the cuts drawn, I will remove track, plywood and make cuts per track tracing. Now will also be the time to work on the backdrop with plywood removed and walls made accessible. I have for 80% of layout blue painted walls as a backdrop and several people mentioned I should be using Masonite and 1x2's supporting the Masonite for backdrop painting. What is/are the downsides to using the walls as a canvas? I will be putting up an 9' section of Masonite, in the back room between layout and fish/pump room. which will be removable to access the back area's in that section.

Thanks in Advance

John

John, sur3e sounds like you have been really busy! I sure hope you will be posting more photos as you go along! With me having to build a new layout I am going to need all kinds of ideas!

@Aegis21 posted:

Well I have a good amount of track laid down for getting cookie cutter ready to cut the elevated sections of track. Once I have the cuts drawn, I will remove track, plywood and make cuts per track tracing. Now will also be the time to work on the backdrop with plywood removed and walls made accessible. I have for 80% of layout blue painted walls as a backdrop and several people mentioned I should be using Masonite and 1x2's supporting the Masonite for backdrop painting. What is/are the downsides to using the walls as a canvas? I will be putting up an 9' section of Masonite, in the back room between layout and fish/pump room. which will be removable to access the back area's in that section.

Thanks in Advance

John

John, this may not be much help as I’m still evaluating the situation. Like you I painted all the walls cloudless blue. My granddaughter did some clouds with stencils and rattle cans; and some free hand. In the meantime my plans changed and some of the clouds will have to be made smaller to create the idea of distance. My objective is to create a permanent Christmas layout. Recently we had some snow in mid state PA and I took some landscape shots of snowy fields in front of mountains. As a result I’m contemplating getting that printed. Before installing I would cut away the sky so that once installed the blue from the paint would create a consistent color.

Jay

@Aegis21  John, I presume you have drywall walls. When I sold my house the buyer wanted no trace the room ever had a layout in it. Fortunately I had used Masonite for my backdrops and only had to remove a couple of screws to de-layout the walls. Can't imagine how many coats of Kilz would be needed to cover over painted drywall.   

I've got concrete walls in my layout area so 1/8 Masonite hung from the ceiling joists will do the trick for me.  Trying to decide if I want a 90 degree corner or curve it.

@Aegis21 posted:

Hi Mark,

For my 2 cents, If you are looking to add detail items to scenes then a resin printer is the way to go. Any item with detail that length or width is less than 2 to 3 inches resin is a must. Building walls, street pavers, windows, doors are all possible and more practical with a filament printer (pla) I have done a lot with the pla printer (the chimney I sent you for your building is an example of pla quality and detail) Resin details and quality for small items is fantastic, however I am shy of the caustic nature and precautions that are a necessity of resin printing. I haven't done too much resin printing for that reason, plus I am not close to that stage of my layout. Your kit building abilities are fantastic and you would do well designing and doing your own kits. Or adding/expanding or changing an existing kit.

my 2 cents

John

Thank you for the information, John.  There are always pros and cons to everything it seems.

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

John, this may not be much help as I’m still evaluating the situation. Like you I painted all the walls cloudless blue. My granddaughter did some clouds with stencils and rattle cans; and some free hand. In the meantime my plans changed and some of the clouds will have to be made smaller to create the idea of distance. My objective is to create a permanent Christmas layout. Recently we had some snow in mid state PA and I took some landscape shots of snowy fields in front of mountains. As a result I’m contemplating getting that printed. Before installing I would cut away the sky so that once installed the blue from the paint would create a consistent color.

Jay

Hi Jay, That sounds like you have an overall plan and now just need to follow it. With everyone's responses, I get the idea that using masonite is a good idea when you go to sell ( which I will not be around to see) and more effectively if you print a backdrop and then need to glue it to a surface. Not gluing to drywall and using masonite makes a ton of sense in that situation. After the last time I removed wallpaper I vowed NEVER to wall paper again! And a printed backdrop is the same principle, maybe worse considering backdrops seem to use spray adhesive and not a removable paste. I am leaning towards the cheap lazy route for painting directly on the walls. That may change when I see how terrible it is coming out and switch to printed backdrops!

Great job on the sky and clouds, shame you may cover them with a print.

Thanks for everyone's responses.

John

@mike g. posted:

John, sur3e sounds like you have been really busy! I sure hope you will be posting more photos as you go along! With me having to build a new layout I am going to need all kinds of ideas!

Hi Mike,

Been somewhat busy with getting over Covid more than working on layout. At least it has me responding to everyone's comments, which are immensely appreciated. And I will keep posting photos when there is positive or negative progress. lol

Thanks for your support

John

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Aegis21  John, I presume you have drywall walls. When I sold my house the buyer wanted no trace the room ever had a layout in it. Fortunately I had used Masonite for my backdrops and only had to remove a couple of screws to de-layout the walls. Can't imagine how many coats of Kilz would be needed to cover over painted drywall.   

I've got concrete walls in my layout area so 1/8 Masonite hung from the ceiling joists will do the trick for me.  Trying to decide if I want a 90 degree corner or curve it.

interesting that you are planning to hang your masonite. Is it that hard to work with that it deserves to be hung at high noon? LOL just my dry dad humor, your plan sounds good and gives another way to use masonite as a backdrop. I will consider the masonite in the 9 foot section that is void of walls.

Thanks for another great idea!

John

@mike g. posted:

Thanks John, I have been doing some studying this morning and think the PLA is the way for me to start. Here is what I am looking at right now, but that could change by the time I get moved and a train room up!

Bambu Lab A1 Combo

I have spent all day researching them and this one seams to come up as the easiest to set up and use! Plus reading all the reviews and tech remarks Bambu Lab sure seams to stand behind their products!

Thanks again for your input and when I get one I will probably bother you even more! LOL

Well printers have come along for sure. I am envious of the nozzle change ability and auto calibration with flow rate control! That is a very impressive unit for sure!