Benchwork - Wiring - adding elevations

The least amount of action as far as turnouts and such seems to be on the trackage in the lower left hand corner of the layout.  You could try putting your Main Street above the mainline curve but not over the yard lead. The tunnel portals would be halfway through the mainline curve and about where the yard lead diverts to a spur. You could use a cut stone wall or a cliff at the edge of the elevated town so that the yard lead would run along the walls edge. A simple highway bridge over the yard lead would be your exit out of town so it doesn’t just turn into a dead end.  Looks to be enough room where structures could be on both sides of the street. You may have to cut some access holes in your wood roadbed for a just in case derailment inside the tunnel. A tall structure could be used to hide the fact that the town or street goes up against a wall and aid as a view block. I know you have another tunnel planned and this may not be a good idea to have to much hidden trackage.

I just don’t think you have enough room along your yard area leading to the turntable. You would need to face the building fronts toward the aisle and not have room for the street. You could always leave the street out and just model the sidewalk. Still it looks like a busy area and you don’t want to have to reach over structures for anything. Nor do you want to limit yourself to have just 1 or 2 story ones.

The yard lead has a nice open area on the curve. The use of a curved switch would create a nice spur for something like an fuel dealer.

@Aegis21  Until I opened the SCARM file I did not realize the amount of space you have to work with. WOW - in my dreams. That said the long narrow space with the end entry can pose design problems if you want 072 plus curves.   I would consider hiring someone to help design an interesting layout plan for you. There are forum sponsors who provide such services.  If not that - get ahold of Linn Westcott's old book "101 track plans". He does a nice job of providing scenery details as well as vertical adjustments. I gather from him since the real world is not flat, you layout should not be either. You have plenty of space for a multilevel track plan with nominal grades. I would consider a helix in the bump-out and get creative with a high track.

Check out the basic track plan at @mike g. 's post on his rebuild. This plan has gone through several iterations.   I like the idea of a walk in, but I do not have the room.  A folded dog bone would fit nicely in your space. Just plan for space between the rails and backdrop for buildings or scenery.

While I understand this layout has been dismantled, it is a great example of what a model railroad can look like. Maybe there are some ideas for you here. Black Diamond Railroad

For what its worth, I had a radon pipe in my home. It is nothing more than a PVC pipe with a slight negative pressure on it to draw radon containing air from under the basement slab. The fan should be up in the roof somewhere along with the power supply. I would have no qualms about encasing that pipe. Mine had a pressure gauge on it which needed to be exposed - a good check to see the system is operating. Over time the fan wears out and needs to be replaced. 

John, if you don't want.to go threw a lot of work. I had a friend here I. Washington state who had the same problem,  he just went out and bought some pipe the same size and painted them all the same color for silos. Anything above the color was painted sky blue.

@Aegis21 posted:

Does anyone have Layout changes, improvements alterations to help make the layout more interesting from either just running trains or railroad operations standpoint? I am having trouble with "Main Street" To me it seems there are too many tracks and not enough room for street, buildings, and scenery. I may be worrying over something I am just not seeing yet. Again being  this is my first time making a large layout (something other than a Christmas tree oval) it is hard to envision the diorama's .Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks in Advance John

I like the plan overall John. My only recommendation would be to simplify the yard and tracks leading to the turntable. I would shorten all but one track and not connect them to the TT. You can eliminate the escape switches between the middle tracks too. The bottom track can remain as is. This would be an arrivals track where you can pull in a train, and move the engine to the TT. This can also be used to bring an engine out from the TT to connect to a train in the yard.

For the town area, if you know the footprints of the buildings you are planning to use, lay them out so you can see what space you have/ need.

Just my $.02.

Bob

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, I don’t see how a swing-out would work. The aisle there is only 3’ wide and there’s at least 2’ of framing/decking to the pipe from the left. If you swing it out, it’s just going to block the aisle. My suggestion is a 2x2’ or 2’x3’ removable module that can be pulled out and moved out of the way. Since that’s only a vent pipe, chances are it’ll never have to be replaced/repaired, but you do need access to that back area for maintenance and dealing with problems if you put a spur there.

Hi Dave, I agree on the removable module instead of a swing out.

When it comes to track vs landscaping, you need to decide how you plan to operate. Are you really going to use those 2 double-crossovers and spurs? Or can they be simplified into just a couple of spurs to service whatever facilities you put there? If you put a large mountain around the pipe, how are you going to landscape that spur? What it going to go along the spur that goes in the other direction.? There’s no room for buildings, just faux building or painted buildings in the wall. That same for the spurs along the aisle. The biggest problem is a lack of specific buildings to see how things could fit. We filled those areas with track to show what could fit, but that always depended on what building you eventually decided to out there. Now it’s time to forget about those spurs and see how you want your city to look along the mainlines. Once you have that, then you can decide what spurs to keep.

I could abandon the double crossover, although that is the only way the main lines are connected. And I have a gut feeling that basically the town should have been built and then added railroad services as needed. At any rate, the area at the top left of the latest drawing will be coal mining spurs. On the back wall will be a river going out to sea/lake with a double track high bridge and a bascule bridge. to accommodate train passage. The top right/middle was to be town with passenger station on the two spurs. That is the more troublesome area, as tracks take up too much room. Also I am taking into account removeable sections to access the layout sections that are against the wall. To run trains there is a lot of track and options, however to have it somewhat realistically resemble real railroad serving communities and businesses, it falls short.  I will put in some buildings on a scarm drawing that I have and would like to use. Some I can build to fit, however there needs to be some room to "fit" these into. my head is spinning lol

Hi John. just to give you a little insight the wondering weather to have more track or more scenery is the sole reason I took down my old layout. I had a bunch of track but no room for building or towns really and I came to the conclusion after getting to the point where it was time to add people, autos, and buildings I found out in my opinion I did not have enough scenery .

My new layout also uses a raised town and my staging yard will be under the layout with a ramp up to the main line.

@Dave_C posted:

The least amount of action as far as turnouts and such seems to be on the trackage in the lower left hand corner of the layout.  You could try putting your Main Street above the mainline curve but not over the yard lead. The tunnel portals would be halfway through the mainline curve and about where the yard lead diverts to a spur. You could use a cut stone wall or a cliff at the edge of the elevated town so that the yard lead would run along the walls edge. A simple highway bridge over the yard lead would be your exit out of town so it doesn’t just turn into a dead end.  Looks to be enough room where structures could be on both sides of the street. You may have to cut some access holes in your wood roadbed for a just in case derailment inside the tunnel. A tall structure could be used to hide the fact that the town or street goes up against a wall and aid as a view block. I know you have another tunnel planned and this may not be a good idea to have to much hidden trackage.

I just don’t think you have enough room along your yard area leading to the turntable. You would need to face the building fronts toward the aisle and not have room for the street. You could always leave the street out and just model the sidewalk. Still it looks like a busy area and you don’t want to have to reach over structures for anything. Nor do you want to limit yourself to have just 1 or 2 story ones.

The yard lead has a nice open area on the curve. The use of a curved switch would create a nice spur for something like an fuel dealer.

Hi Dave, I am trying to wrap my head around putting Main street over the mainline curve. I have trouble looking at things in the Z direction. Elevations are not my strong suit at all. I like the sound of the highway bridge and stone wall. Having to hide a bit more track would be worth it to have a more realistic scene. And I agree on not reaching over structures for sure.

Thanks for the great ideas.

@mike g. posted:

John, if you don't want.to go threw a lot of work. I had a friend here I. Washington state who had the same problem,  he just went out and bought some pipe the same size and painted them all the same color for silos. Anything above the color was painted sky blue.

Great idea to keep in mind! Dave mentioned a raised town which might help that situation.

@mike g. posted:

Hi John. just to give you a little insight the wondering weather to have more track or more scenery is the sole reason I took down my old layout. I had a bunch of track but no room for building or towns really and I came to the conclusion after getting to the point where it was time to add people, autos, and buildings I found out in my opinion I did not have enough scenery .

My new layout also uses a raised town and my staging yard will be under the layout with a ramp up to the main line.

Love your town for sure! Now I will investigate the layout height to see if a raised town or a lower yard is the best approach. Either way it sounds like some woodworking will be needed, hopefully not a total rework of that area.

John, I am in agreement that the chances are you will never have to access the pipe.  We had to have the mitigation installed in a previous house, so I agree the items that may need maintenance aren’t at the layout.  We don’t need the system at this house.  You will need to plan for access to the track and scenery.

Jeff (ScoutingDad) sent me photographs of his layout in his previous house where he used the ‘canyon’ approach with ‘stone’ retaining walls and the town at a higher elevation than one of his tracks.  My layout was planned with the high track right over the lower track and I will be building a couple lightweight lift outs with my town on it.  I have not started that project as of this time.  Maybe something like that would work for you.

John, if you are considering raising the town above the tracks. Experiment with cardboard or foam raised up on whatever you can find to get the height you need. If you have some buildings that would help or even cardboard boxes to represent buildings. If you come up with something you like. Give it a few days just be sure before you get into the build.

I was more focused on the town or road. Bob brings up a good point about the lead to the turntable of just having a couple of paths to get on or get off it. The curved turnout I mentioned leading to an industry such as fuel dealer. If you are modeling the steam era. A long team track might work with a loading dock. Low enough that it can easily be reached over. You can service it with a variety of cars and detail it with all kinds of commodities being loaded into trucks. Or even to offload automobiles.

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, I am in agreement that the chances are you will never have to access the pipe.  We had to have the mitigation installed in a previous house, so I agree the items that may need maintenance aren’t at the layout.  We don’t need the system at this house.  You will need to plan for access to the track and scenery.

Jeff (ScoutingDad) sent me photographs of his layout in his previous house where he used the ‘canyon’ approach with ‘stone’ retaining walls and the town at a higher elevation than one of his tracks.  My layout was planned with the high track right over the lower track and I will be building a couple lightweight lift outs with my town on it.  I have not started that project as of this time.  Maybe something like that would work for you.

Mark,

I agree on not worrying about the radon pipe. The fan is below layout and could access from underneath if needed to be replaced.

As for planning elevations, that is one of my Achilles heel for sure. Concepts I struggle to process. I will play around with Dave C's suggestion on using temporary cardboard etc. to visualize an elevated town. Some difficulty is the total lack of knowledge on making/using walls vs trestle's etc. But one step at a time I guess. Thanks for your input, your layout is coming out GREAT! I hope to have mine come out half a good.

Thank you, John!

@Dave_C posted:

John, if you are considering raising the town above the tracks. Experiment with cardboard or foam raised up on whatever you can find to get the height you need. If you have some buildings that would help or even cardboard boxes to represent buildings. If you come up with something you like. Give it a few days just be sure before you get into the build.

I was more focused on the town or road. Bob brings up a good point about the lead to the turntable of just having a couple of paths to get on or get off it. The curved turnout I mentioned leading to an industry such as fuel dealer. If you are modeling the steam era. A long team track might work with a loading dock. Low enough that it can easily be reached over. You can service it with a variety of cars and detail it with all kinds of commodities being loaded into trucks. Or even to offload automobiles.

Great idea with cardboard and foam, I have both readily available. Plus many cut off pieces of 1x3's for vertical support. And it sounds like I need to be flexible with the spurs and accommodate buildings and roads for a chance at  semi-realistic scenery and town.

@RSJB18 posted:

I like the plan overall John. My only recommendation would be to simplify the yard and tracks leading to the turntable. I would shorten all but one track and not connect them to the TT. You can eliminate the escape switches between the middle tracks too. The bottom track can remain as is. This would be an arrivals track where you can pull in a train, and move the engine to the TT. This can also be used to bring an engine out from the TT to connect to a train in the yard.

For the town area, if you know the footprints of the buildings you are planning to use, lay them out so you can see what space you have/ need.

Just my $.02.

Bob

Hi Bob, Just so I am understanding your recommendations - So take out the switches between yard tracks and shorten them to what would be a workable/good length? Bottom track - is that the one closest to the wall? So then put the town where the yard tracks were located and build from there? When everyone was helping with the track layout I was in the more is best mode for track. Obviously now is the time to use the less is more with track and more is more with buildings and town. LOL

Thanks for your input and let me know if I am understanding your suggestions.

Again Thanks John

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Aegis21  Until I opened the SCARM file I did not realize the amount of space you have to work with. WOW - in my dreams. That said the long narrow space with the end entry can pose design problems if you want 072 plus curves.   I would consider hiring someone to help design an interesting layout plan for you. There are forum sponsors who provide such services.  If not that - get ahold of Linn Westcott's old book "101 track plans". He does a nice job of providing scenery details as well as vertical adjustments. I gather from him since the real world is not flat, you layout should not be either. You have plenty of space for a multilevel track plan with nominal grades. I would consider a helix in the bump-out and get creative with a high track.

I will certainly get the Linn Westcott book, I need all the help I can get.

Check out the basic track plan at @mike g. 's post on his rebuild. This plan has gone through several iterations.   I like the idea of a walk in, but I do not have the room.  A folded dog bone would fit nicely in your space. Just plan for space between the rails and backdrop for buildings or scenery.

While I understand this layout has been dismantled, it is a great example of what a model railroad can look like. Maybe there are some ideas for you here. Black Diamond Railroad

For what its worth, I had a radon pipe in my home. It is nothing more than a PVC pipe with a slight negative pressure on it to draw radon containing air from under the basement slab. The fan should be up in the roof somewhere along with the power supply. I would have no qualms about encasing that pipe. Mine had a pressure gauge on it which needed to be exposed - a good check to see the system is operating. Over time the fan wears out and needs to be replaced.

Thanks for the input and suggestions! I certainly need to do more research and get my head around multi-level layout.

@Aegis21 posted:

Hi Bob, Just so I am understanding your recommendations - So take out the switches between yard tracks and shorten them to what would be a workable/good length? Bottom track - is that the one closest to the wall? So then put the town where the yard tracks were located and build from there? When everyone was helping with the track layout I was in the more is best mode for track. Obviously now is the time to use the less is more with track and more is more with buildings and town. LOL

Thanks for your input and let me know if I am understanding your suggestions.

Again Thanks John

John- not exactly. What I meant was to simply shorten the yard tracks and not connect them to the TT. I modified your SCARM plan and attached it below. You don't have any other long storage tracks that I see (unless a layer is turned off), so I would assume you want the yard to be as long as possible.
The town could be built above the yard as Dave and others mentioned.

Layouts are about compromises. I'm an operator, so I tend to go track heavy and will find ways to fit buildings and industries as I go. If you want a good sized Main Street, then going on top of the yard would make the most sense.

It's your railroad, your rules!

Bob

Bob, did you notice that the switch connected to the TT is only O-31 and larger ones won't fit as currently configured? However, either way, once a train arrives, the TT is useless until the cars are moved off the arrival track. That's why there needs to be at least on more track connected to the TT.

The photo shows an alternate configuration using the light blue track for configuring outgoing consists, the red track for arrival trains, the grey track to move departing engines off the TT and the green/dark blue tracks for storage. As always, the problem is trying to marry a TT/RH facility with yard operations. In this case, the yard is attached directly to the TT making it really difficult to configure something anywhere close to prototype.

An alternative is to use just one track to service the TT and the other tracks for storage/configuration. A train would arrive and the engine would move onto the TT. A yard engine would then clear the arrival track and configure an outgoing consist. A departing engine would then move off the TT and pick up the consist.

Initially, the switches in the yard were so the yard engine could move around the yard, not for arriving engines to escape. And, if you noticed, the TT/RH is sized for large engines, while the yard is effectively limited to just 2-3 storage tracks.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

Bob, did you notice that the switch connected to the TT is only O-31 and larger ones won't fit as currently configured? However, either way, once a train arrives, the TT is useless until the cars are moved off the arrival track. That's why there needs to be at least on more track connected to the TT.

The photo shows an alternate configuration using the light blue track for configuring outgoing consists, the red track for arrival trains, the grey track to move departing engines off the TT and the green/dark blue tracks for storage. As always, the problem is trying to marry a TT/RH facility with yard operations. In this case, the yard is attached directly to the TT making it really difficult to configure something anywhere close to prototype.

An alternative is to use just one track to service the TT and the other tracks for storage/configuration. A train would arrive and the engine would move onto the TT. A yard engine would then clear the arrival track and configure an outgoing consist. A departing engine would then move off the TT and pick up the consist.

Initially, the switches in the yard were so the yard engine could move around the yard, not for arriving engines to escape. And, if you noticed, the TT/RH is sized for large engines, while the yard is effectively limited to just 2-3 storage tracks.

I did not check the switch Dave. I had considered keeping one more track connected but was thinking along the same lines that a yard switcher would clear the arrival track once the lead engine was disconnected (at least that's how I'd run it on my RR. I agree that having the TT at the end of the yard presents challenges.

It takes a Village to design a good track plan......

Bob, I have no problem using 1 track, probably what I would do too, mostly because I’m not into a lot of switching. I’d probably extend the light blue track further and use it to stage a long train. I’d pull in, disconnect the engine and let another engine take the consist back out just the way it is. Then I’d move the original engine to the TT using the gray track. I’d do the same thing with the red, green and dark blue tracks using appropriately sized consists. That would give me 4 consists to okay with. Every so often I might use a yard engine to move cars around just for some variety.

That would maybe change if I’m had the room for a real yard and TT/RH service area. I was just explaining the rational for some of the current design. John and I have played with this design since 2018. This current version is something he’s been tweaking trying to figure out the landscaping. If you look back through the thread, you’ll see that he added the links to the TT using flex track, something I think he’s going to find isn’t going to work very well during the build stage.

I haven’t reviewed the latest version until now, I’ve been preoccupied this year with family issues, so I haven’t had a chance to mention that or the O-31 switch. The design of the TT area will undoubtedly change during construction. Right now there are curved whisker tracks aligned with the preset indexes on the TT. However, during the build he should see that modern TTs have way more index points than those shown in the software and he should be able to add straight whiskers in the sides of the RH. The lengths also appear to be longer than needed on the whiskers outside the RH, they only need to be long enough for engines to clear each other. The whiskers for the RH are longer to fit into the RH.

Anyway, I also think he’s forgotten that he can add a city scape to the upper section by adding removable platforms along the aisle’s edge. The idea that reach has to be around 30” is valid, but doesn’t negate using removable modules for non-track landscaping to make a layout appear larger than it is. In fact, an entire movable module would fit along that edge or the edge along the lower section by the yard. You put it on wheels and hide the connecting hardware inside buildings, etc. Or you break it into smaller sections and out them on drawer sliders.

Bob & Dave,

I am obviously floundering around with both track design/functionality and setting up a town somewhere. All the advice and comments are certainly appreciated and needed. I have VERY limited knowledge of the running of model trains in regard to yards, TT and switching. I will re-read all your comments and digest them to figure out what is possible and what is not. (or at least not practical) Thanks for all the time you have graciously spent helping and guiding me with this layout.  I did put a raised platform to "see" how a town would look over the yard. It appears from first glance the table height of 41" with an additional 7" platform has the town at a poor viewing angle. If I have to cut down the legs on the existing table, although not ideal by far, it is still do able. Anyone have thoughts on total height?  

41” height isn’t that high for viewing trains. Most opt for a low height if the layout has some depth in order to be able to reach things. Those with more of a style shelf layout opt for about 48”.
I wouldn’t place the town over the yard portion. I’d go to the left so that the town would only cover 2 mainline tracks. Leave the yard lead visible. The street would be closer to eye level. Just the thing if a few buildings have visible lighted interiors for viewing.

@Dave_C posted:

41” height isn’t that high for viewing trains. Most opt for a low height if the layout has some depth in order to be able to reach things. Those with more of a style shelf layout opt for about 48”.
I wouldn’t place the town over the yard portion. I’d go to the left so that the town would only cover 2 mainline tracks. Leave the yard lead visible. The street would be closer to eye level. Just the thing if a few buildings have visible lighted interiors for viewing.

Thanks Dave for your input. Since the table top present height is 41" putting another layer on top. I think I would need 6.5" clearance add 1" for plywood and Masonite or foam board and I'm at almost 49" Please anyone and every one let me know your max height that is used for a town. I put a piece of plywood up 6" and a building or two and it looked good for viewing inside the storefront windows. As for where to position it, I like keeping the yard open for viewing and I will need some access to that corner and have a town on top. I have some 1" foam that I could use to mock up something with buildings. I originally wanted the town across the isle opposite the yard. I obviously added too many tracks for a town to fit. Not sure what to have on that side????

John, my layout base level is 42” high.  The highest track level is 50”.  My station is on a platform at that height.  My town over my yard will be at the same height.  I’m 5’ 11” tall.  The 50” height is okay with me, but I respect the fact that it would be too high for many people.  I was toying with what I am going to use for supporting the removable town.  Yes it needs to be lightweight but sturdy.  If I can get a chance I’ll mock something up too.

John, here is a view of the station level; 50”.  The bottom level is actually 43”.

John, if it’s been discussed before at some point in the thread. I apologize for asking these questions again. Are you planning on running any passenger equipment ?   Are you looking for more of an open country, small town look. Or something like a city with taller structures ?

George Selios’ famous HO layout has a small city scene over the tracks in Franklin. It’s supported by cut stone archways. Think tunnel portals joined together. It features an under the city passenger station with platforms. The archways allow you to see the action but also get your hand in if needed. You mentioned the section opposite your yard for the town area. Other than a couple of turnouts I would move to an open area and maybe get another track passing through there looks to be plenty of room.

Bob Bartizek did something similar in his town of Annvile. There are videos out there of both of these layouts. Bob’s might be available on OGR for viewing.

As far as height of the layout. I think your right on the money. Buildings just below eye level look good. Nobody’s squatting down to look in windows if there’s something to see or checking out figures and autos.

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, my layout base level is 42” high.  The highest track level is 50”.  My station is on a platform at that height.  My town over my yard will be at the same height.  I’m 5’ 11” tall.  The 50” height is okay with me, but I respect the fact that it would be too high for many people.  I was toying with what I am going to use for supporting the removable town.  Yes it needs to be lightweight but sturdy.  If I can get a chance I’ll mock something up too.

Hi Mark, I was 6' 1" now more like 5' 11" so I feel more comfortable seeing your layout heights are good. Now my wife on the other hand is 5'1" but hasn't had interest in my train project, so it may not matter.

@Dave_C posted:

John, if it’s been discussed before at some point in the thread. I apologize for asking these questions again. Are you planning on running any passenger equipment ?   Are you looking for more of an open country, small town look. Or something like a city with taller structures ? No apology needed, asking questions that I have already forgotten they were asked is a helpful reminder. Yes I would like to run some passenger service. Small town look for sure, no big cities.

George Selios’ famous HO layout has a small city scene over the tracks in Franklin. It’s supported by cut stone archways. Think tunnel portals joined together. It features an under the city passenger station with platforms. The archways allow you to see the action but also get your hand in if needed. You mentioned the section opposite your yard for the town area. Other than a couple of turnouts I would move to an open area and maybe get another track passing through there looks to be plenty of room. Thanks for the passenger station idea, that does sound like  a smart use of space. As far as another track on the opposite side of the room, I was planning on making a one foot removable module so I can access the tracks closest to the wall. It is a four foot reach which will be difficult without access. So another track is troublesome. I am not sure I would want to tackle a removable track section, although I guess the is possible.

Bob Bartizek did something similar in his town of Annvile. There are videos out there of both of these layouts. Bob’s might be available on OGR for viewing.

As far as height of the layout. I think your right on the money. Buildings just below eye level look good. Nobody’s squatting down to look in windows if there’s something to see or checking out figures and autos. Thanks for the positive feedback on the height and the suggestions, I will check out both Selios and Bartizek's layouts.

@RSJB18 posted:

I did not check the switch Dave. I had considered keeping one more track connected but was thinking along the same lines that a yard switcher would clear the arrival track once the lead engine was disconnected (at least that's how I'd run it on my RR. I agree that having the TT at the end of the yard presents challenges.

It takes a Village to design a good track plan......

Bob and Dave you both have great suggestions and I have so little knowledge of a real layout and how to work a yard and turntable. I see in both your suggestions the turnouts between the yards tracks are removed, if I am repeating myself I apologize, it also sounds like the yard will be for storage of consists/cars and should not be connected to the TT? Again I am so lost with operations, it makes having a good functional design impossible for me to even think about, let alone designing it. Please your thoughts, anyone else have ideas for the yard/TT area? Thanks

from helpless in Pa.

John, I used to be 6’ 0”, but was measured 5’ 11” a few years ago.  Maybe I am even 5’ 10” by now.  😄

I have never had a turntable or decent yard, so I can identify with you, that I don’t know how to even comment on that aspect of layout design.

@Aegis21 posted:

Bob and Dave you both have great suggestions and I have so little knowledge of a real layout and how to work a yard and turntable. I see in both your suggestions the turnouts between the yards tracks are removed, if I am repeating myself I apologize, it also sounds like the yard will be for storage of consists/cars and should not be connected to the TT? Again I am so lost with operations, it makes having a good functional design impossible for me to even think about, let alone designing it. Please your thoughts, anyone else have ideas for the yard/TT area? Thanks

John, it’s not a matter of “should not“, it’s more a matter of not enough room for straight connections because the TT is too close. You need a straight track off the TT so steamers won’t hit obstructions that surround the TT. I’ve included a photo of an Atlas TT to show the types of obstructions I’m talking about. If a steamer comes in off a curve, there’s a good chance it will hit. Of course, if your TT has unlimited index points, there shouldn’t be such obstructions and you should be okay.

There’s nothing wrong with having the yard switches, but if you connect all the tracks to the TT, they’re not needed for escape. And using them to escape eats up storage for 2-3 cars. It’s all a matter of if you think you’ll actually use them, how much storage you want, etc. The big thing is unless you dedicate that whole area to TT/yard operations, you just don’t have the room for anything close to prototype. And, unless you like switching and plan to build and break down consists, a lot of things just aren’t needed.

Dave,

not sure on unlimited Ty indexes, it is. Ross turntable with indexing

have to go now but will address the remainder of your post soon

John, it’s not really unlimited, but newer TTs, such as the Ross TT, are fully indexed. That means they stop wherever you want rather than only at preset points. What you need to be careful of with the Ross TT is making sure engines coming out of a curve clear the railings that are attached to rotating platform. I don’t see any obstructions around the perimeter of the TT, so you should be okay there. It’s just a caution when using flex track to make connections.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, it’s not really unlimited, but newer TTs, such as the Ross TT, are fully indexed. That means they stop wherever you want rather than only at preset points. What you need to be careful of with the Ross TT is making sure engines coming out of a curve clear the railings that are attached to rotating platform. I don’t see any obstructions around the perimeter of the TT, so you should be okay there. It’s just a caution when using flex track to make connections.

Thanks Dave for the sage advise on the yard and turntable. I am re-thinking (although that implies I had thought things through originally- which obviously I did not) everything on the layout. I will have the less is more attitude when it comes to track, and look at areas for town, coal industry, stations, country side, trailer park. The area seemed so big when I started but mysteriously shrank when track was put down???? Back to the drawing board...

Thanks John

John- If you are thinking about changing things up, consider reversing the yard lead and put it on the right end, next to the TT. The purple yard track can be moved and the yard extended around the corner on the left. This would free the TT from the back of the yard and you could have one or two tracks serving the TT off of the new yard lead.

Not knowing your scenery plan too well I'm not sure how this would affect what you want to do but this is the time to think about these things.

I will lay it out in SCARM when I get a chance.

John, I think I like Bob’s suggestion of reversing the yard lead to the end of the yard next to the turntable.

Dont worry about rethinking/replanning.  I have just finished testing out track on The Blackwater Canyon Line Plan E.  Aside from Plan A, I started laying track on all the other plans, then realized they weren’t so good for various reasons!  🙄

@Aegis21  John, this thread goes way back to 2018. Have you been working on imagining a layout this long? If so - just throw a board down, lay some track and run some trains. Do not worry about the "perfect layout".  My gosh I get tied up in planning all the time but somehow manage to just move ahead.

I found I did not understand my preferences until I built my layouts and ran some trains, and then bought more trains, sold some off and rebuilt a new layout and now have done this cycle several times - all in the last 5 years. I still am not sure I have it locked down as sometimes the 2 Rail Scale idea pops into my head.

Not to throw a monkey wrench into the process, but you could also just move the yard to a different location on the layout.

Nothing says it has to be right in front of the TT. By moving it, you could have only one (or possibly two) TT leads and that would also allow additional whisker tracks.

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Aegis21

I found I did not understand my preferences until I built my layouts and ran some trains, and then bought more trains, sold some off and rebuilt a new layout and now have done this cycle several times - all in the last 5 years. I still am not sure I have it locked down as sometimes the 2 Rail Scale idea pops into my head.

John, I think Jeff is expressing something similar to what I meant by mentioning my Plans A through Plan E.  I didn’t know what I wanted or what would work in my small space until I had laid track.  Also, I made a number of modifications on the fly that I didn’t even count as separate plans.

John, I hate to see you start over with the design. However, that's a decision only you can make. You seem to be really hung up on buildings and it doesn't look like you're able to visualize what you want. I don't know how many buildings, etc., you already have, but I said a long time ago that you need to take the time to measure their footprints along with what you expect to buy, then create 3D figures in SCARM to act as placeholders. There are already some inn the buildings layer and more here that might help you visualize things.

When it comes to relocating the yard, I don't think some are taking into account the elevation changes you've got. It's easy to look at 2D drawings and say move the yard here or there, it's another to move it to where it fits. To illustrate the point, here's a photo showing the blue areas at 0" elevation. As you can see, moving the yard to the other side isn't just a matter of moving the tracks. And when it comes to building a town around the yard, even discounting the elevation problem, there's no more room there than where it is. In fact, if you take the yard as is, there's not even enough room for the throat.

It seems to me you want 2 separate cities, a yard, a TT/RH facility, a passenger terminal along with elevated dual mainlines. I don't think there's anything wrong with the design as it is. You've sized the TT and 5-stall roundhouse to hold the largest of engines and that right there requires a minimum 5x8 space. Then you've added an elevation change to go around the RH eating up 2' to the back and 1' to the bottom. I get that everyone wants to be able to run a Big Boy, but that doesn't mean the entire layout has to be sized to accommodate it. You could have gotten by with a smaller TT, a smaller 3-stall RH and a single storage track for a large engine. However, at this point, that's moot.

Personally, while things may have somewhat limited functionality for a purely prototypical point of view, I don't see anything wrong with the design. The TT will still turn engines, the RH will still store engines and the yard will still store cars as well as let you build consists. And, to be honest, there are prototypical operations that use a TT to only turn engines, no RH, no whisker tracks, etc. I don't know of any layouts that have a yard, a TT, an RH, a city complete with sidewalks/streets as well as a dual mainline, all in a 4' wide section.

All that being said, I honestly don't know why you want a city near the yard in the first place, there just isn't enough room no matter where you put the yard. And suggestions to move it are being made without folks having seen the design with bridges, water features, elevations, etc. From what I see, even if you start designing from scratch, the challenges you've already worked around won't go away, they'll just move.  It might help if you used SCARM's Simulation feature to run trains around the tracks to see how you might actually operate. It lets you throw switches. uncouple cars, etc. It even lets you rotate the TT. Just a thought....