@TomSuperO posted:whoops forgot to attach the pics
Ok so I asked a question without reading ALL the posts. Pics are great! Now there is something else I have to remember not to forget. LOL
@Dave_C posted:Tom, beautiful work on the benchwork. I had purchased Wescott’s book but I had already started out with open grid benchwork. I did use the risers and cleats for the grades to do an over and under. My curve on a grade looked fine to my eye till I ran a train. Had a flat spot or dip that was noticeable. Easy to correct just by re drilling the riser and bringing it up a bit.
I want to say I built my benchwork following Frank Ellison’s book. I must have read it 20 times. One thing I remember was the mentioning of a star drill and driving screws by hand. Probably slotted ones back then. Luckily when I started the battery powered drills were just getting popular along with self driving screws.
Yes Dave, totally agree on the professional benchwork! Great job!
Well I have a functioning lift bridge thanks to all the help I received from the great members on this forum! I hope to be able to eventually help someone so I can pay forward the help. I'll take some pics later. Mark, your 7.5" from pivot point was spot on for the actuator bracket on the bridge. Thanks and again thanks to Mike g. and Susan Deats for all the info they so graciously supplied or made available. Now I need to properly power and switch the linear actuator. Plus have deadman switches for the bridge being in the raise position. Also some guide pins to align the bridge track with its counterpart.
John, I'm glad the 7-1/2" worked out for you. I used the Westcott book for benchwork back in the '80s. My first layout around 1970 was cookie cutter from an old Westcott book, HO Layout that Grows. I learned about risers and cleats there. I learned about splice plates helping my dad repair our old 1888 homestead, dating back to before my first layout. He never was a model railroader, but handy at jerry rigging repairs of any kind and saving a dollar while doing it. You have noticed on my Blackwater Canyon, I used Woodland Scenics foam risers for my 4% grades. I thought that would be easier since I only have hand tools. However, with 4% grades the 0% to 4% transitions proved to be such a pain, I am going to finish my layout modifications with risers and cleats. I guess an old dog needs to be reminded of what worked for him when he was a young pup! 
@TomSuperO your layout is really looking great!! I was thinking of you recently, but could only recall Tom, not your profile name. Trying to search members, there are a lot of Toms here. 
I must have been called away from the computer before I cam upon your name. 
@Mark Boyce posted:John, I'm glad the 7-1/2" worked out for you. I used the Westcott book for benchwork back in the '80s. My first layout around 1970 was cookie cutter from an old Westcott book, HO Layout that Grows. I learned about risers and cleats there. I learned about splice plates helping my dad repair our old 1888 homestead, dating back to before my first layout. He never was a model railroader, but handy at jerry rigging repairs of any kind and saving a dollar while doing it. You have noticed on my Blackwater Canyon, I used Woodland Scenics foam risers for my 4% grades. I thought that would be easier since I only have hand tools. However, with 4% grades the 0% to 4% transitions proved to be such a pain, I am going to finish my layout modifications with risers and cleats. I guess an old dog needs to be reminded of what worked for him when he was a young pup!
Again Mark, thanks for all your helpful and insightful information. I have on paper kept the grades to under 3% Should I keep that as a line I should not cross? Any thoughts and input from all is extremely welcome.
Here are some bridge pics and I hope a video. I still haven't mastered putting on a .mov file from an iPhone. But i'll attempt it again, apologies if I am not successful.
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Nice bridge pics. Thing about grades. Transitions can be tricky and the longer the engine the trickier. There can be a lot of movement on the wheelsets which can lift drivers or contact wheels off the track, just a hair, but enough to create a problem. This is really for steamers as the driver wheels tend not to be sprung independently of each other. In bad cases the loco can rock on the track section. Large diameter drivers have caused me the most problems - my fault not good enough track laying. Less or no issues with diesels and electrics.
If you have traction tires probably not much of an issue for going up grades. I have a Sunset M10000 without traction tires and that will not go up a 2.8% grade without some speed going in - slips otherwise.
Also grades put stress on the couplers in addition to the weight of long trains. Its always gets my attention when a coupler lets loose and the train starts to move in opposite directions. On my small layout the head meets the end quickly.
I've managed to keep my grades below 3% but if I had the room I would probably keep them to 1.5%. NMRA recommends no more than 2% on mainlines. But as anything else, use the minimum grade you absolutely need to get the job done. Both Mark and I have tight layouts which require steeper grades so we work with what we have. One tip is to move one line upgrade and the other downgrade. You effectively half the distance needed to provide crossing clearance. Either way what goes up must come down so you need the distance saved anyway. On my new layout, I am running a track connecting a lower level stub end yard to the main line 3/4 of the way around the perimeter of the layout to keep the grade manageable at an 8 inch elevation gain.
John, the bridge looks great! It a cleaner looking installation than mine, but I can cover up most of my ‘excess’ support on the hinge side with ground cover or other scenic or structural elements. Is there any twisting diagonally, which was a concern of a number of forum members? The truss portion of the bridge hardly weighs anything, so you are good to go! Congratulations!!!
I like Jeff’s comments on grades. Based on my experience with this layout your grade would be fine, unless you run a really long train. I have only needed a helper on really long trains for my layout. Actually experimentation to see what I could handle, not for regular running. A long train makes a small layout look smaller. So your grade should be fine.
My problems were that without enough transition from 4% to 0% at the top of the grade, the pilot wheels on most of not all steam engines came off the track. Also the front two drivers of my Decapod came off the track. Also, as Jeff mentioned, the pilot on steam engines touched the rails at the bottom of the grade. I didn’t have any issues with my short diesels and cars. If you are running long modern cars and engines, they may have issues too. I had to keep taking up the track and shimming the bottom of the grades and shaving off the angle at the top of the grades until all trains ran well. I don’t ever want to go through that again! 🤕
Jeff and Mark, Thank you for sharing your experiences which is invaluable information. I do not have any locomotives that are longer as of yet. I am sure that will change eventually and it would be nice to be able to accommodate guest engines that can run easily on the layout. I will stay with keeping grades to < 3% and heed both of your sage advice. Thanks again!
John, the bridge looks great! Very nice installation! I am with both Jeff and Mark as far as grades go. I have one that is at 3% but that is going down to my future staging yard under the layout. If you check out my post that I will be putting up shortly, I am going to try to attach a video of it.
@mike g. posted:John, the bridge looks great! Very nice installation! I am with both Jeff and Mark as far as grades go. I have one that is at 3% but that is going down to my future staging yard under the layout. If you check out my post that I will be putting up shortly, I am going to try to attach a video of it.
Thanks for all the help with the bridge! Great help and well appreciated
Hi John, I don't know what help I was, but it sure turned out great!
Nice installation. I’ve been looking for those hinges for while now. Where did you purchase them and the lift.?
@mike g. posted:Hi John, I don't know what help I was, but it sure turned out great!
Mike, You helped John by helping me, and I passed the information on to John! 😄
What aligns the bridge exactly with the fixed tracks on the right?
I have two brass locating pins on the free end to insure precise alignment of the tracks on my freight yard bridge. That's mandatory on mine as there are ten tracks to align!
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@mike g. posted:Hi John, I don't know what help I was, but it sure turned out great!
You supplied the drawings and inspiration to even attempt doing this!!!
It would have never happened without you, Mark and Susan’s efforts
@Stephen G posted:Nice installation. I’ve been looking for those hinges for while now. Where did you purchase them and the lift.?
They are 3D printed from drawings on Susan Deats forum posts on https://slsprr.net/features/bridges1drwgs.htm
i did beef up the plastic replica as they used steel
@gunrunnerjohn posted:What aligns the bridge exactly with the fixed tracks on the right?
John that is awesome!!! 10 track alignment!!!! WOW!
To answer your question - Absolutely nothing... yet. This was an attempt to see if I could use 3D material and manufactuer the hinges. The track is only there because I am also seeing how the layout transfer from scarm to reality. In scarm the track is actually elevated and so is the bridge. My purpose was feasiblity of making the lift bridge and also getting an idea of function and placement of layout. BTW John the watchdogs are working perfectly which was another reason to start laying some track. Next step is to actually elevate the track on table and to start laying the other main line, spurs, yard, roundhouse... Holy railroad batman there is SO Much to do!!!!
I will be using some alignment pins (not sure what and where) and also have to position and install limit switches for linear actuator.
I have two brass locating pins on the free end to insure precise alignment of the tracks on my freight yard bridge. That's mandatory on mine as there are ten tracks to align!
@Mark Boyce posted:Mike, You helped John by helping me, and I passed the information on to John! 😄
Mark you are so right! Again thank you both!!!
@Stephen G posted:Nice installation. I’ve been looking for those hinges for while now. Where did you purchase them and the lift.?
The lift I purchased either from ebay or amazon, it was Mike g.'s information that specified the actuator. As for the hinges they are 3D printed using Deats drawings for translating them into PLA plastic 3d printed parts. They originally called for 1/8" thick steel I made these much wider to handle the load and stresses. I was just guessing and it seemed to work out. If you have a 3d printer I could post the .stl file. If not I can certainly print a couple more when the printer is idle. One thing about 3d printing to get detail or strength it takes hours to print some objects. Which is fine by me as I have so many other things to work on I certainly am not waiting around for them to print. btw I love being able to "manufacure" parts!
@mike g. posted:John, the bridge looks great! Very nice installation! I am with both Jeff and Mark as far as grades go. I have one that is at 3% but that is going down to my future staging yard under the layout. If you check out my post that I will be putting up shortly, I am going to try to attach a video of it.
I will check it out for sure!
Yes, it is really neat to be able to manufacture parts now!! Well done!!
Mike’s 3% ramp works like a champ!
@Aegis21 posted:To answer your question - Absolutely nothing... yet. This was an attempt to see if I could use 3D material and manufactuer the hinges. The track is only there because I am also seeing how the layout transfer from scarm to reality. In scarm the track is actually elevated and so is the bridge. My purpose was feasiblity of making the lift bridge and also getting an idea of function and placement of layout. BTW John the watchdogs are working perfectly which was another reason to start laying some track. Next step is to actually elevate the track on table and to start laying the other main line, spurs, yard, roundhouse... Holy railroad batman there is SO Much to do!!!!
I will be using some alignment pins (not sure what and where) and also have to position and install limit switches for linear actuator.
These are what I used, for when you get there. They also come with a special pin insert that fits into the female parts once they are installed and then, when you lower the bridge and press down, they make a small indentation to mark where the male parts should be located.
Be careful not to drill down any further than the length of the pin so that they have material to rest on. I also used a little heavy duty construction adhesive when permanently placing them in their holes.
Got them off of the big A and am satisfied with how they work.
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@Richie C. posted:These are what I used, for when you get there. They also come with a special pin insert that fits into the female parts once they are installed and then, when you lower the bridge and press down, they make a small indentation to mark where the male parts should be located.
Be careful not to drill down any further than the length of the pin so that they have material to rest on. I also used a little heavy duty construction adhesive when permanently placing them in their holes.
Got them off of the big A and am satisfied with how they work.
Looks Great, and if they align 10 tracks they must work perfectly. Thanks for the info. I will get a set. Thanks!
@Aegis21 posted:Looks Great, and if they align 10 tracks they must work perfectly. Thanks for the info. I will get a set. Thanks!
Well, that's not what I used, unless someone else has ten mating tracks on their bridge. However, they look similar in function to what I used, and I suspect they'll do fine.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, that's not what I used, unless someone else has ten mating tracks on their bridge.
John, where did you get your matting pins?
Right now, I just use 2 sections of plywood cut like half-moons to guide mine into place.
Again just a thank you for everyone's help! It is GREATLY appreciated. THANKS
Ok so I failed to look forward a couple of steps. I realized the 3D printed hinges would be thicker for strength, and I looked at interference with the deck. Now it comes..... assuming (yes I know the saying) that it worked before, so it did not occur to me to check if their is interference with the truss work above deck. Yes there is so much so it will not work as designed. I am experimenting with a new designed bracket/hinge it will take till this evening to print out, however it appears to clear on paper. lol The other option was to cut the original bridge structure, which I want to avoid as much as possible. Meanwhile I will start to elevate the track that is down with scrap plywood and 1x3's I am also concerned with how much track is in the tunnel section. No real access in case of derailment. I have included scarm drawing for reference.
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Murphy was an optimist!
If you make a significant inaccessible area, you know where the problems will be!
Now to be able to get to those problems and correct them! Yes Murphy was an optimist!
It’s always something! So Murphy lives with you?? I honestly think he lives with me!! 😢
@Mark Boyce posted:It’s always something! So Murphy lives with you?? I honestly think he lives with me!! 😢
Lets just say he gets around a lot more than needed. 
Murphy took a nap I guess - So on a brighter note the redesigned hinge works perfectly so far... I am inclined to beef it up a bit (there is plenty of clearance), however I will leave it as it is working nicely. Here are some pics of the new hinge bridge. All comments are always welcome, good or bad, they all help!
Now maybe I can start with elevating the track. For a single track with road bed, should the plywood be cut 4 1/2" wide???? And for a double track what would anyone suggest?
And it is now obvious that something has to change with all the track that is hidden in the L section of the layout. I fear redesigning that section. I am not happy with having too many spurs in that area above ground level. So One switch and spur maybe eliminated, which does nothing for my issue. 
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Well this is my first attempt at correcting the lack of tunnel access in the only tunnel on the layout. That seems boring, doesn't it??? 
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Sometimes you can arrange tunnel access from under the layout. Another way is to make the tunnel material removable as panels if needed. You do want access of some kind to that area, if not you can be sure you'll wish you had provided it!
John, the redesigned hinge looks great! I measured my roadbed and tracks adjacent to the double track bridge. We need at least 7” wide roadbed to extend just beyond the ties. I would suggest 8”, of course you could make it wider if you want.
Hi John, sorry I haven't commented for a couple of days. The hinges look great and very clean! I do have one thing to point out and think if it is not a problem then that is fine.
If you look at the hinge pins through the photos you will see in different photos the pins are sticking in different distances I don't know if that end of the bridge slides back and forth side to side, but if it does the easy fix would be to center the bridge so you have the same amount of pin on each side then just make a stop pin that you mount to the outside of the hinge. They do a lot of that with Heavy equipment just to keep pins in.
If its not a problem, just forget everything I just said and Rember I think things look great!
The revised plan does look very plain - like ‘why does the tunnel exist?’ The original has more impact. I agree with GRJ’s comment about access from the underside. Just move or adjust the elevated track supports to make sure your supports leave you room to reach up to help when things go wrong. Thankfully CSX Al had thought about that beforehand and had no issues retrieving my MTH C&O M-1 Turbine after its “notorious” pilot truck hung up on a grade change on the hidden 15 foot section of his layout.
You may want to move the tunnel portals towards each other by a few inches so you turnouts at each end are clear of them for maintenance.
Keep posting as the ideas and information are great.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Sometimes you can arrange tunnel access from under the layout. Another way is to make the tunnel material removable as panels if needed. You do want access of some kind to that area, if not you can be sure you'll wish you had provided it!
Thanks for the words of wisdom and suggestions. I have never made a model railroad with scenery, so to be able to make some hidden panels seems a tall order for me. lol It is a good suggestion for sure! I lack the confidence to be able to implement it.
Thanks again!
@Mark Boyce posted:@Mark Boyce posted:John, the redesigned hinge looks great! I measured my roadbed and tracks adjacent to the double track bridge. We need at least 7” wide roadbed to extend just beyond the ties. I would suggest 8”, of course you could make it wider if you want.
Mark,
THANKS for the info, huge help!
