Photos of Bob Thon 0-6-0 switcher

Hello Jim

  Bob Thon of Robert Lines Trains  bought out ( Glenn Gerhard)  Glenn Toy Trains .  Glenn Toy Trains produced a 0-6-0 , rumored about 25 were made .  Bob after buying out the remaining castings from Glenn Toy Trains was able to build a handful more using the remaining castings.    Last October at York  I bought the last "kit"  Glenn Toy Train 0-6-0  he had .. it is not complete but close .  

"Hojack" posted a nice video of his running here

https://ogrforum.com/t...-and-cars-movie-time

Liberty Lines also produced a 0-6-0  in small numbers ..here is a link to see one running

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Sw24oS8Xc

Cheers Carey

Can always count on you, Carey. I notice that the last picture is a different engine - whose is that one? Video is really nice - great looking engine. I'll take one of each.

I'm collecting parts for a 'six-pack' switcher built from a 384E boiler/mechanism similar to the one owned by Clem (the original homemader), and Pat Rolland (who built a beautiful copy after helping Clem with his).

Jim

Jim Waterman posted:

I notice that the last picture is a different engine - whose is that one? Video is really nice - great looking engine. I'll take one of each.

 

The last engine (the one in the video) is a Liberty Lines switcher made by Harlan Creswell.  I have one in a display case about 6 feet from where I'm typing this!  It's not running at the moment, as the drive mechanism relies on a rubber O-ring that, unfortunately, did not survive my first operating attempt after purchase!

Oh, I like that!

Carey, The Liberty Lines #608E is beautiful. Was this produced in limited numbers? I guess I need to get out more...never saw one of them before. 

Tom 

Hello Switcher folks ..yes these were produced in very small numbers  ( 25 or less) .... the "Modern Era Standard Gauge"   ( not MTH painted in a rainbow of colors) ..but the "little folks" / small manufactures   found a rather small audience of devoted followers to barely sustain within.    McCoy  is in it's own world with some very faithful followers ,  MTH , Williams , and Lionel  all producing  reproductions of the original "old " trains  have found a good size market  of collectors who will not or choose not to pay high dollars for original pieces ...or who just like new trains that look like the old ones ..sans  dents and scratches. 

Each to their own, the world is big , buy what you like and like what you buy !

 The niche of "Modern Era " builders of original trains  found a much smaller "pool " of collectors  to sell to .   JAD with the Hiawatha  flooded the market with 250 engines ..and was only able to sell about half that number of cars to form complete sets ....   today's value of a "like new " Hiawatha set is about the same as it originally sold for in  1976 ( just think it you bought Apple stock instead) ... the collector pool for Modern Era  has not really expanded.  

Lee Lines produced the lovely Daylight , Northern , but only about 50 were produced .  Small numbers do not give the builder much room to economize with .   So  many of the smaller builders products cost as much as original old pieces  , forcing priorities in collecting with a budget .   The small builders many  times  saw there models as labor of love  due to the high amount of hours required to "hand build "  the small batch of trains.   If the builders charged Union machinists wages no one could afford the final product. 

MTH, Williams and Lionel with over seas production have been able to keep costs relatively low or more in line with what their  faithful followers can afford  on an annual basis. The product is a known commodity  just in a different colors . 

   When Lionel experimented with all "new standard gauge designs"  the Hiawatha and Commodore  they easily flooded the market ..yes perhaps due to price,  but most of the collectors of standard gauge are looking for that "classic  golden era" look ...not new designs ...Lionel learned a costly lesson ..hence no 3rd train in the series .

So listen to your own beat and dance accordingly.

Cheers Carey

Carey:

THANKS for sharing the Liberty Lines switcher video!  

Excellent summary of modern era standard gauge production! I am squarely in the Lionel Classics and MTH Tinplate Traditions camp. Prefer my trains and accessories new, shiny and unscratched. Have been disappointed in the QC of the Lionel Corporation Tinplate line having received chipped and dented cars and locos.

The Samhongsa (Korean) MTH production and early China Tinplate Traditions production was much superior in quality than the current LCT based on my personal experience with a lot of product!

Carey,

Good description of the MESG world! Having lost one of our mentors this year (Arno Baars), I guess you will have to fill in with knowledge of this small facet of the Standard Gauge world. And I know that you have a pretty deep knowledge of this stuff, so I'm counting on you!

Having built a few Lee Lines engines and a bunch of passenger cars over the last year, I can vouch for Carey's statements - in small quantities, everything is hand built, finding parts and materials becomes more challenging, so they remain widely unknown and in quantities so small that they should be very prized. I have really enjoyed the journey, but it has not come without some costly learning!

Maybe someday if Arno's book is published, we'll build a larger following! (We heard that there was a transfer of his notes before his passing - he was working on it for many years.).

Having known Arno (and most of the others posting here of recent times), I have become a modern era fan. And being a tinkerer, I have a few new cohorts to share ideas, techniques and knowledge.  I have plans for a number of 'one-off' engines in the future. Once I finish up the current Lee Lines orders!

Now where can I find one of those 608E's?

Jim

The beautifully crafted limited modern standard gauge models are truly great to behold. I had a collector friend who had several examples of the JAD GG1's and Hiawathas and those models were a revelation to me at the time. Lee Lines, Liberty Lines, Glenn and Thon models and others are also relatively rare and collector/operator worthy. Someone also made a Dreyfuss SG Hudson which is awesome. Though too exotic for my tastes, I certainly admire this special niche of the tinplate hobby and consider myself an "armchair enthusiast"!

Please post more photos and videos of these limited and specially crafted items for the rest of us mere mortals to enjoy!  

I also would purchase Arno's book if published posthumously.

Rob Shaubach posted:

Jim Waterman posted:

I notice that the last picture is a different engine - whose is that one? Video is really nice - great looking engine. I'll take one of each.

 

The last engine (the one in the video) is a Liberty Lines switcher made by Harlan Creswell.  I have one in a display case about 6 feet from where I'm typing this!  It's not running at the moment, as the drive mechanism relies on a rubber O-ring that, unfortunately, did not survive my first operating attempt after purchase!

Hi Rob (and Carey and anyone else),

 Can you explain a little more about the drive mechanism using a rubber O-ring? Also, if you are willing, I would love to see lots of photos of your 608E, including the front, underneath, both sides etc? Since these are so few in numbers and I guess Harlan Creswell made them all by hand, are there (subtle or big) differences between any of the locomotives and tenders? Very interesting locomotive.

Anything you know about the builder, Mr. Creswell. I saw his Hudsons were built in the 1970's, I believe, so the 608E was probably done around the same time? Can you share how you came across your locomotive? Thanks.

Tom

The 608 is one iconic model!

Rubber O ring - gum band??

MNCW posted:

Hi Rob (and Carey and anyone else),

 Can you explain a little more about the drive mechanism using a rubber O-ring? Also, if you are willing, I would love to see lots of photos of your 608E, including the front, underneath, both sides etc? Since these are so few in numbers and I guess Harlan Creswell made them all by hand, are there (subtle or big) differences between any of the locomotives and tenders? Very interesting locomotive.

Anything you know about the builder, Mr. Creswell. I saw his Hudsons were built in the 1970's, I believe, so the 608E was probably done around the same time? Can you share how you came across your locomotive? Thanks.

Tom

Hi Tom,

My 608E was purchased at a Stout Auction (in fact, the picture Carey posted may be mine).  I'll have some time over the next few days to take some pictures of the inside and out and will be glad to post them here for you to see.  All I really know about Creswell is what he tells us in his TCA quarterly article about the 600E.  As Carey said Creswell apparently did much of the work by hand, so there are no tools/dies around to allow us to easily re-create his locos.  Arno told me that Creswell continued to produce items through the early/mid 1990's, and my 608E has a built date of 1983 on the cab -- I assume that is the actual build date but cannot verify it.  I'm located very close to the TCA museum and library, so one of things on my "round-to-it" list is to research Creswell and Liberty Lines there - I'm sure there is additional information out there!

Stay tuned for some pics of the 608E...

Hello Creswell  admirers

Here is all the Creswell info I can find .

Jim can fill us in ..but the Hudson's can have issues running ..but they look great.

Last photos of of my Liberty Lines cars ... they were never completed .. so end of line or prototypes ?

Need to find some State car hinge hardware to attach roofs with .

Also looking for a Hudson and a baggage to fill out the set ....

the Blue is lovely ... seems a bit richer than the standard Lionel Blue Comet colors.

No interiors on the cars ....

Does any one know if there were shared dies , patterns between Lion Lines  and Creswell ( Liberty Lines)?

Lion Lines brought out a set of State cars about the same time as Creswell ..both operating on the left coast .

Cheers Carey

Sorry no mention of the 0-6-0 within the Creswell order forms ..so built after ?  Order forms 1979 ... your engine is dated   83

Rob you live near the TCA museum ?  See you at York ..or the museum

WOW - COOL stuff! 

THANKS for sharing!  Just curious: are those state cars made of the same heavy gauge steel as the Lionel originals?

regarding the running qualities of the Liberty Lines 600E, I fixed one for a friend recently. A very involved and rather frustrating job to get it right.

The engine uses a rather large 'can' motor and bridge plus a Marx type reversing unit for directional control. He used green LED's for the marker lights on the front.

The motor is mounted on a machined block, which also has details to hold several helical and spur gears to put power to the wheels. All drivers are powered through another set of spur gears on one set of drivers, similar to the LIonel super motor gearing.

He used McCoy Lionel drivers, which as we know, don't hold up so well. With help from Harry Henning, I got a nice new set including his superb job of deflanging the center driver set - they also need to be undercut on the back, which Harry also did a great job of replicating.

A key gear buried in that metal machined block frame had the smallest set screws I ever saw, took a .030 allen wrench to turn. This guy was spinning on axis and is the weak point in the drive train and cannot really be serviced without pulling a set of drivers and the valve gear. Redrilled/tapped  the gear for larger set screws.

Was very difficult to get the drive working without some binding on the driver side spur gears. I eventually gave up on the 3rd set and used the siderods to drive the forward axle, eliminating the last set. Very difficult to get good gear to gear contact between the driver and the spur gear set, some variability in all parts including the frame.

After all that, this was absolutely the smoothest running STD gauge engine I have ever seen, just glides down the track and is a joy to see.

It had to have been very time consuming to build these guys. At $730 a pop in 1979, that would be somewhere around $3500 in today's dollars, so not within the reach of most folks collecting STD back then. But it is truly inspiring just to see it and then watch it glide down the rails.

Jim

Rob Shaubach posted:

Stay tuned for some pics of the 608E...

Finally got around to taking some pictures of the 608e.  While I had it in the workshop, I decided to "lift the bonnet" and replace the drive "belt" O-Ring that I broke during my initial test run when it was delivered.   Gotta love that giant can motor. After re-assembling, I gave a it a very brief test run on the two pieces of track in the display case and it appears to be running again. I have a very busy day tomorrow and we lose an hour of sleep tonight, so perhaps Monday or Tuesday (when the big storm comes...) I'll give it a proper test run and post a video.

Hey Rob, Thanks very much for all the pictures. Just had one question about the front...is there a number plate on the smokebox door? 

Great looking loco.

Tom 

Thanks for the request, Tom.  You got me motivated to get the thing off the display case, opened up, and ready to run again.  

To answer your question, there is no number plate on front -- more toy train than scale in this baby, but still more detailed and realistic (IMO) than anything the prewar manufacturers did with standard gauge.

When I saw your first photo I actually did a double-take as the overhead view looked very much like my Lionel prewar B6 locomotives except for the 2 green marker lights and the absence of a whistle on the steam dome.

Make sure you guys in Pa. siphon off enough of the snow before it gets further east... 

Tom 

Rob Shaubach posted:

Rob Shaubach posted:

Stay tuned for some pics of the 608E...

Finally got around to taking some pictures of the 608e.  While I had it in the workshop, I decided to "lift the bonnet" and replace the drive "belt" O-Ring that I broke during my initial test run when it was delivered.   Gotta love that giant can motor. After re-assembling, I gave a it a very brief test run on the two pieces of track in the display case and it appears to be running again. I have a very busy day tomorrow and we lose an hour of sleep tonight, so perhaps Monday or Tuesday (when the big storm comes...) I'll give it a proper test run and post a video.

Rob, thanks a whole lot for the pictures of the 608E. Although made in tinplate form, it is a good representation of the PRR B-6. The Glenn/Bob Thon engine that Carey posted looks more like the standard USRA 0-6-0 switcher that many railroads used during and after WW1. Looks like an O ring for the drive, eh? You might be able to get one that is a lot more durable than a standard O ring seal (they are made with many materials). But given that the first one was 30 plus years old, elastomers just don't last that long, especially if they got the oils of the day on them. What's the speaker for?

Jim -- yes O-ring drive and both pulleys (drive shaft and motor shaft) are rubber.  I put a new generic O ring from Lowe's plumbing department on it - we'll see how long that lasts. Where will I find o rings made of something more durable and what would you recommend?

The speaker is for the sound system -- in the short time I was able to run it before the O-ring gave up, I noticed a faint chuffing sound. Not sure if there are any additional sounds.  I love how the speaker and giant can motor barely fit under the shell.  The speaker is "crunched" on two sides.

Rob Shaubach posted:

Jim -- yes O-ring drive and both pulleys (drive shaft and motor shaft) are rubber.  I put a new generic O ring from Lowe's plumbing department on it - we'll see how long that lasts. Where will I find o rings made of something more durable and what would you recommend?

The speaker is for the sound system -- in the short time I was able to run it before the O-ring gave up, I noticed a faint chuffing sound. Not sure if there are any additional sounds.  I love how the speaker and giant can motor barely fit under the shell.  The speaker is "crunched" on two sides.

Rob,

If you can find urethane round belts (molded, not spliced), it is a very durable material. Some folks 'weld' the splice together and it can be pretty durable, I would look for belts of the right length already molded in one piece.  An alternative is to check in with the folks that supply belts for 'vintage electronics', VCR's, turntables, that kind of stuff. In many cases you should be able to specify the diameter and overall length. Durometer (how 'rubbery') is a variable. Between 70 and 100 seems to be a reasonable range. Habasit is a Swiss brand, considered to be top shelf. Make sure length is about 90% of the measured length in order to get the right 'stretch'.

McMaster Carr also stocks them under the 'round belts' category. Pick your diameter and 'outer circle' size.

Jim

Really - a sound system? Very cool!