PRR Panhandle 2.0

Now back to the photographs.  The stained table legs look good.  Mass production!

Updated 2/23/2018:

Here's the current thinking (diagram) regarding the Steubenville area of the layout. These are some major changes in my thinking over the past 24 hours.

• I've eliminated the mountain tunnel at the top of the layout. It has been replaced by a smaller hill that reflects the area more prototypically (I hope).
• I made the track changes indicated in the first rough sketch.
• The ground will slope up from the bottom of the layout towards the hill and the background. I expect the increase in height to be between 3" and 6".
• Panhandle 1.0 featured the intersection of Market Street with 4th Street.  Panhandle 2.0 adds 5th and 6th Streets.

I'm going to have to do something about the footprint of The Hub department store. A person I met at the Strasburg 2-Rail Show has a resin casting for a 5 story building that would look fantastic. Unfortunately, it is 2' long x 1' high (96 s' x 96 s' x 48 s'). A 2' x 2' building takes up a heck of a lot of space. I'm rethinking that. Same deal for the Grand Theatre; I want to conserve foot print, but I'm dubious about the current commercially available offerings for movie theatres.

Other buildings in downtown Steubenville are still TBD, although there will be an S.S. Kresge (River Leaf Models). Steubenville has a number of buildings constructed in the late 1890s-1920s. There are a number of kits featuring buildings of that era (we need more). In addition I have a bunch of building photographs (taken in 2005). These have tons of architectural character and diversity.  I plan to consult the Steubenville library for an accurate list of businesses in downtown in 1953.

I decided to include the Federal Paperboard factory off 4th Street. It has a large brick smokestack. I may or may not keep the siding at its current length past this factory. If I can think of another industry to put there, I'll keep it at its present length. If not, I'll shorten it and do something else with the space.

Moving to the north (top) of the layout, I've put the Steubenville PRR station in its correct location (on 6th Street). Footprint is approximate; I am trying to acquire the actual station plans. The small hill in front of the backdrop will rise rather rapidly. I see it being 12"-18" tall. Over the tunnel portal, I will use an HO model of the Bates House to force perspective (uphill and receding). At the western end of 6th Street, I will have Market Street turn right and run it behind an outcropping of the hill to hide its termination from view.

So that is the current thinking. Comments and suggestions are welcome!

George

George, I like the idea of adding more than one cross street.  That will add more interest.  I agree, the Hub building at 2 x 2 is too big.  It's a good building to use, but from the photographs, other buildings looked larger.  I do like the River Leaf SS Kresge building.  Every town of that size had a 5 & 10, Kresge, FW Woolworths, GC Murphy, etc.  I think the hill with the forced perspective HO building is good. 

I hadn't noticed it before, but what railroad is the "river route" loop?  It makes sense to have it for extra interest.

Mark Boyce posted:

George, I like the idea of adding more than one cross street.  That will add more interest.  I agree, the Hub building at 2 x 2 is too big.  It's a good building to use, but from the photographs, other buildings looked larger.  I do like the River Leaf SS Kresge building.  Every town of that size had a 5 & 10, Kresge, FW Woolworths, GC Murphy, etc.  I think the hill with the forced perspective HO building is good. 

I hadn't noticed it before, but what railroad is the "river route" loop?  It makes sense to have it for extra interest.

Mark,

I've assembled a series of figures that show the River Route.  In the 1953 Grif Teller painting, the last steam locomotive to ever appear on Pennsy calendars is on the River Route.

Here's a photo of the western end of the bridge.  The River Route is just to the left of the "pocket" pier and just to the right of the northbound lanes of Ohio Route 7.

Here's a snapshot of the River Route I took in 1965.  We are looking north, upriver.  That's the Ft. Steuben Bridge (automobile) in the background.  It was demolished a few years ago.  Note that the River Route had 2 tracks;  it is currently single tracked.  The railroad bridge would be off camera to the right.

Not sure that the track can be seen clearly, but it is there.  This photo is taken on the Ohio side of the river, just south of the bridge.

So now you know where the River Route is. 

To answer the question you actually asked:

PRR, Pittsburgh & West Virginia, Norfolk & Western, and (perhaps) Wheeling & Lake Erie or mid-50s NKP.

In modern times (like last October), I saw a CSX train go through.

George

Ah ha!  So it was another PRR route!  Very good, and yes it is an important part of your rendering of the Panhandle Division in the Ohio Valley.  Thank you!!

Just read your entire thread.  Very impressive...I am most impressed by your patience and planning.  Keep up the good work!

roll_the_dice posted:

Just read your entire thread.  Very impressive...I am most impressed by your patience and planning.  Keep up the good work!

Thank you!  That's very kind.

George

This might belong is the Real Trains subforum, but I'm going to post it here.

Here's a photo I found in a book during my research on Steubenville.  From top to bottom are the 3 Panhandle bridges across the Ohio between Steubenville and Weirton.

George

Updated 3/11/2018:

The refinement of the Steubenville side of the layout continues.  Here is the view of the northern part of the layout.

Since the last look, I've added the correct location of the PRR station on N. 6th Street, the Federal Paperboard factory, a re-sized version of The Hub department store, and 5th Street.  Both 6th and 5th Streets will be populated with a prototypical sampling of the correct businesses (can't fit them all).

Here's a look at the southern half of Steubenville.

This part of Steubenville will feature the intersection of 4th Street and Market Street, the prominent businesses on lower Market Street, N. 4th Street, and S. 4th Street, and the red light district at Water Street.

The terrain will rise from a low point at the south side of the layout to the northern points near the PRR station.  Beyond that track, the terrain will rise sharply over then next 2 feet to meet the backdrop.

George

Updated 3/23/2018:

While I haven't been posting many updates, there has been some serious thought given to several parts of the layout construction.

• The wood ribbing for the tables has been modified to support access hatches. As a result, I've created a spreadsheet that identifies each table and all 2x2's and their dimensions.
• An order for 5-ply 19/32" plywood pieces has been placed. This will allow construction of the Staging area as well as most of the Weirton section of the layout to start. I am having the pieces cut to size to reduce the work.
• This month's NMRA Division meeting took place at Scenic Express. In a stroke of luck there, I discovered that the Chooch Large Cut Stone (#8264) is a pretty good match for the arch's stonework (PRR bridge). I picked up some of it. I also re-examined my photographs of the arch. Surprisingly, the stone arch sits on what appears to be a poured concrete base. The arch itself can be no older than 1878-9. I have found a textured paint that may be a good match for the color of the base. Here are some photos - first the prototype.

Next, the paint samples. On the left is a satin color called "Fossil". On the right is the textured color "Desert Bisque". I'm leaning towards the textured paint.

George

Here's the western (Steubenville) bridge abutment with its new paint job.

The eastern abutment (the Stone Arch) is in the process of being painted.  Once the base is done, I will measure, cut, test-fit, and apply the Chooch Large Stone Walls to it.

George

That is going to look great, George!!

Mark Boyce posted:

That is going to look great, George!!

Thanks Mark.  I bought that paint several years ago thinking I would use it on the bridge piers, but it was the wrong shade.  It turns out to be just the right color for the abutments, though!

George

Updated 3/29/2018:

Some good progress to report today.

• I checked and corrected my lumber order. It is scheduled for delivery next week. That should allow me to start the Staging Area.
• I researched the exterior of The Hub Department Store in Steubenville. I obtained a couple more photos from the Steubenville Library.
• The remaining piers, as well as the floors for the bridge pedestals, got their coat of paint.

• I painted the base of the Arch. Here's a look. I'm test-fitting a piece of the Chooch Large Cut Stone on it.

George

George, The piers look great!!  A load of lumber to arrive!!  Look out, the sawdust will be flying!!

G3750 posted:

Updated 3/11/2018:

The refinement of the Steubenville side of the layout continues.  Here is the view of the northern part of the layout.

Since the last look, I've added the correct location of the PRR station on N. 6th Street, the Federal Paperboard factory, a re-sized version of The Hub department store, and 5th Street.  Both 6th and 5th Streets will be populated with a prototypical sampling of the correct businesses (can't fit them all).

Here's a look at the southern half of Steubenville.

 

This part of Steubenville will feature the intersection of 4th Street and Market Street, the prominent businesses on lower Market Street, N. 4th Street, and S. 4th Street, and the red light district at Water Street.

The terrain will rise from a low point at the south side of the layout to the northern points near the PRR station.  Beyond that track, the terrain will rise sharply over then next 2 feet to meet the backdrop.

George

 

George,

When I look at your track plan for the Steubenville side of the bridge I feel like you should double track the loop around town and connect the tracks with a couple of switches and cross overs. I know it would add complexity but it would look better if the tracks did not split up like you currently are planning. I think you are really on to something special with the layout and I am enjoying your posts.

Mike

Guitarmike posted:

G3750 posted:

Updated 3/11/2018:

The refinement of the Steubenville side of the layout continues.  Here is the view of the northern part of the layout.

Since the last look, I've added the correct location of the PRR station on N. 6th Street, the Federal Paperboard factory, a re-sized version of The Hub department store, and 5th Street.  Both 6th and 5th Streets will be populated with a prototypical sampling of the correct businesses (can't fit them all).

Here's a look at the southern half of Steubenville.

 

This part of Steubenville will feature the intersection of 4th Street and Market Street, the prominent businesses on lower Market Street, N. 4th Street, and S. 4th Street, and the red light district at Water Street.

The terrain will rise from a low point at the south side of the layout to the northern points near the PRR station.  Beyond that track, the terrain will rise sharply over then next 2 feet to meet the backdrop.

George

 

George,

When I look at your track plan for the Steubenville side of the bridge I feel like you should double track the loop around town and connect the tracks with a couple of switches and cross overs. I know it would add complexity but it would look better if the tracks did not split up like you currently are planning. I think you are really on to something special with the layout and I am enjoying your posts.

 

Mike

Mike,

Thank you very much for the suggestion.  Unfortunately, it is going to be difficult to do that.

I am planning to fill up most of the "empty" space on that part of the layout with buildings and streets and there just isn't room for more mainline track.  I am considering doing something (extending?) to the spur for Federal Paperboard.

I'm trying to make 6th, 5th, 4th and Market Streets as authentic as possible.  Below is a view of Market Street looking east from right around 6th Street (tracks would be immediately behind the photographer).  Whoops, there are the tracks right in front of me.   Lot of clutter in that photo.

Thank you again for your kind words about the layout.   They mean a lot to me.

George

George, That will be a great scene on your layout!  Mike, I agree double track would make for more interesting operation.  This is the trade-off we all have when designing and building a layout; more track or more scenery.  Each of us have to make his or her own decision.  Neither is right or wrong, it is all preference I think.  So I agree it was a good suggestion.  

Updated 4/9/2018:

Here's what's been going on:

• Lumber for the Staging Area arrived last Wednesday, but it's been a little too cold to work in the garage.
• I created a pedestal for the bridge shoes on the base of the Stone Arch. It's a beveled piece of wood that I painted.
• I've created an electrical wiring plan that includes the 7 new districts, their assigned power sources, and track feeder pairs (87).
• All 33 switches have been allocated among 3 switch buses (DZ-2001's) - 8, 13, and 12 respectively. These bus lengths are well within the maximum distance permitted by the specification.
• I identified the number and placement of signals (9 DZ-1060s PRR 7-light position signals, and 2 MTH PRR signal bridges) on the plan.
• Picked up needed several tools, including a crimper, small gauge wire stripper, and digital caliper.
• I finalized the items that I'm delivering to buyers at York next week.

George

Updated 5/16/2018:

Sometimes there are days when you “breakout” and advance on your goal more than others.  Over the past few days I have focused on shellacking tables and supports for the Staging Area of the Panhandle.  After finishing that, I turned my attention to the 2” x 4” x 10’ pine boards that were going to support the bench-work table tops against the room walls (no legs there).  I inspected them closely.  They were warped – typical pine junk.

I decided to replace them with something that would keep its shape better – poplar.  Yes, they were expensive, but I am determined not to make fundamental errors that require rebuilds or repeat some of the structural mistakes of Panhandle 1.0.  So today, I went to Lowe’s and bought a number of 1” x 4” x 8’ and 1” x 4” x 10’ poplar boards and transported them home.  These will not need shellacking.

Now all the remaining boards for the Staging Area have been shellacked, numbered, and are ready to go.

First step will be to set the laser level at 50" and install the poplar boards at the proper spot to support bench-work at that height.  Then assembly of the bench-work can begin.  Staging Area includes Tables 1-4 in the plan shown below.

George

George, Yes acceptable lumber is a major priority!  I can see you shelled out some cash at Lowe's!  You will have a nice level and strong support when done!!

Mark Boyce posted:

George, Yes acceptable lumber is a major priority!  I can see you shelled out some cash at Lowe's!  You will have a nice level and strong support when done!!

Mark, actually only the poplar came from Lowe's.  The 2" x 2" came from Allegheny Lumber in Tarentum, PA.  They fresh-cut your 2x2's when you order them!!  No more warped junk like you see at the big box stores.  The 5/8" Arauco plywood also came from Allegheny.  

I am determined not to repeat the mistakes of the past! 

George

George, 

  Very nice progress on your layout. I didn't notice if you mentioned what software you are using for your graphic arts/layout design updates? 

  In re-reading a few of your posts, I have come to the sad conclusion that I have more cabin cars than you! How is that possible?  

Tom 

MNCW posted:

George, 

  Very nice progress on your layout. I didn't notice if you mentioned what software you are using for your graphic arts/layout design updates? 

  In re-reading a few of your posts, I have come to the sad conclusion that I have more cabin cars than you! How is that possible?  

Tom 

 

Thank you, but things really aren't moving very fast.  Certainly not fast enough for me.

I am using RR-Track for the layout, but Visio 2016 for the benchwork diagram shown above.

"  In re-reading a few of your posts, I have come to the sad conclusion that I have more cabin cars than you! How is that possible?    "

I see no need to insult me.        

As a matter of fact I have 1 N5, 1 N5b, 7 N5c, 8 N6b, and 2 N8. 

George

Updated 5/19/2018:

Benchwork construction has begun!  

The framework to support Table surfaces 1, 2, and 3 is underway.  This approach differs from the one in Panhandle 1.0 in that it uses a 2" x 2" frame to support a 5/8" (19/32") 5-ply board.  My friend Price Bradshaw deserves the credit for this technique, having used it very successfully in his own large layout.

I'm just starting to gather all the pieces here.  The two 1" x 4" x 10' poplar boards will go onto the walls (instead of legs) to support the framework.

Yes Virginia, there is a plan!  

I don't have all the frame members installed yet, but you can see 2 of the 3 surfaces in the photo below.

The first one is proceeding slowly as I get back into the process of constructing benchwork.  I really want to get this right as opposed to rushing to get trains rolling.  This layout is a marathon, not a sprint.

More when I know it.

George

Let the fun begin!

I’m glad you got started!!

luvindemtrains posted:

Let the fun begin!

Yup.  Nothing like the smell of lumber in the train room!

George

Mark Boyce posted:

I’m glad you got started!!

Yeah, me too.  It has taken quite a bit to get to this point.

Updated 5/24/2018:

Making progress on the first table.  It's upside down as I install legs.

Here's a close-up look at the leg bracing.  At the left, that piece of plywood leaning against the frame will eventually sit on top of it.

Here's my leg-making set up.  That is an interior leg in the vise.  At the lower left are a few (18) of the 22 exterior legs that will be required.  Adjustable glides are inserted into every leg to allow for fine-tuning the level of the layout.

Shown are 15 of the completed interior legs.  I will need 40 in all.

I think I'm starting to pick up momentum!  

George

Updated 5/25/2018:

I started attaching table tops (surfaces) 1, 2, and 3 to the framework.  First thing was to move the framework into the corner, but not so close to the wall as to have no room to maneuver.  The surface on the left is #1.

This photo gives you a little better perspective.  It will end up in that corner eventually.

All three tables are in their rough positions.   No. 1 is to the left; No. 2 is at the back, and No. 3 is in the foreground.  I find that no matter how precise I try to be, these never fit perfectly together.  I guess I just have to live with my OCD.  

In this photo, all three tables have a few screws holding them to the underlying framework.

Here's a look at Tables 2 & 3.  I'm about to drive many more screws into table 2.

Here's a better perspective on today's work.

Next steps will be to move the table into the corner, adjust the heights on the glides, measure with the laser level, attach the poplar wall supports (you can see them lying along the baseboards), and then attach the table to the supports.  I think that will wait until tomorrow or later in the weekend.

George

George, I’m glad you are getting a good start on the layout tables!  Are you going to bolt them to each other?

Mark, this is just the first table (flat surfaces have been numbered 1, 2, and 3).  Everything will be bolted together and to the wall.

Updated 5/28/2018:

Work continued today on the first table. In these first two photos, I attached a straight 10' poplar board to the wall on the studs. It is level and up against the bottom of the table.

I then screwed the table top to the poplar board with 3" drywall screws. Checking the table against the laser shows that we have a pretty level platform (given we are working with pine).

So far, so good.

George

George, that looks pretty slick how you are building it!  I'm glad things are rolling along!

Mark Boyce posted:

George, that looks pretty slick how you are building it!  I'm glad things are rolling along!

Thanks Mark!  

The table has now been attached to both walls.  I've measured and Dang!  It looks level!    

How did that happen?        

George

Ha ha!  Yes when that happens for me, I am surprised too!!  

Updated 5/31/2018:

I am now working on building the second table, which is a bit tricky.  That’s not because of its construction (it is very similar to the first), but because of the sequence that must be followed.

If you look at the plan below, you’ll see the steps involved:

Step 1:  Construct the outer 4’ x 8’ frame.

Step 2:  Add the cross-member (“A”) and the south-easternmost internal rib (Identified as “B”).

Step 3:  Add the northernmost internal rib (“C”).  Because of B’s placement, we have to attach this one to the frame with a corner brace.

Step 4:  Flip the table onto its back and attach the legs.

Step 5:  Flip the table onto its legs and check the hole alignment with the previous table.  These holes are for the carriage bolts that will be used to attach this table to the first one.  The remaining holes are for electrical track power buses and switch power / switch buses.

Step 6:  Here’s the tricky part.  We need to get 4 tall (102”) 2x2’s upright and mounted against rib B (installed in Step 2).  These will support the ¼” Masonite boards that carry the steel mill backdrop.  Another tall 2x2 will be mounted close to the back wall; the sixth tall 2x2 will be installed in the table closest to the aisle.  These are all marked as “X” on the plan, but are sitting on the first table in the photo below. 

That's enough for now.  Hopefully, I'll have more to report tomorrow.

George

So are you saying the 2x2 ends will rest on the floor, be attached to the table for support and to keep them plumb?  Then the backdrop will be supported by the 2x2s and adding support to them?  Will the 2x2s be attached to the ceiling?

Mark Boyce posted:

So are you saying the 2x2 ends will rest on the floor, be attached to the table for support and to keep them plumb?  Then the backdrop will be supported by the 2x2s and adding support to them?  Will the 2x2s be attached to the ceiling?

Mark,

You're asking about the vertical 2x2's, right?

Yes, they will get level glides on the end that sits on the floor.  I will attach them to the table for support and then add the 1/4" masonite to the front for the backdrop.  On the backside (to the right in the diagram), I will add 3 or 4 train display shelves.  Along with providing storage and the ability to exchange loaded cars for empties (and vice-versa), they will add stability to the backdrop.  At least, that's the plan.

The 2x2's will not be attached to the ceiling.  They should end up about 1-2" short of it.

George