Sensor Track Problem

You are running on 50Hz AC, right Nick? Which version of the Legacy software in your cab and base? Have you tried more than one cable?

Hi Rudy, 

           No I run 60Hz AC (12V power supply and pure sine inverter) 

I am running software 1.54

I tried a couple of cables and also running the sensor track as the first LCS device from the LCS power supply.

Regards

Nick

>(12V power supply and pure sine inverter) 

???

Do you mean 120VAC, or do you mean your track power is 12VAC @ 60 HZ? If the latter, what is the AC frequency on the electrical mains that the command base and LCS power supply is plugged into?

Also, have you tried more than one cable?

230V AC 50Hz(UK mains) to 12V DC power supply powering a 12V DC to 120V AC 60Hz pure sine wave inverter.

I got into the hobby in 2005, I am afraid some of your predecessors were not as up to speed as Mike R and jon Z. etc. There were a number of 50Hz problems with Lionel equipment. My whole layout is powered by U.S. specification 120V AC 60Hz electric as I did not want any nasty surprises (18V AC 60Hz on the track). Certain older TMCC engines acted up on 50Hz.

I tried another LCS cable but the sensor track acts the same. 

Regards

Nick

OK, thanks for the clarification. 

Have you tested any other LCS devices and if so, which ones? Are they working as expected?

I have the wifi adaptor and a Ser2. I literally just hooked all the LCS bits up today for the first time.

The Wifi adaptor appears to be working in access point mode.I joined my iPhone to it. But I have not tested it any further. Need to join my iPad so I can test with LCS app. 

Ser2 with DCS connected but again not had chance to test tonight. 

I will test tommorow and let you know.

Thanks for the help Rudy

Nick

I just went through weeks of back and forth with Lionel on this same issue.  I have 10 sensor tracks on my layout, wifi module, 4 ASC2, 2 BPC2.  I had sensor tracks that did the same as yours.  Also ones that would do the wrong command that was programmed, or do the command in both directions when it should not.  We tried new legacy Base, new cables (changed from 20 ft to 10 ft), eliminating the ASC2 and BPC2 from the mix, etc.

The final cause : multiple defective sensor tracks.  Out of 10 I had on the layout 3 were defective.  The problem was that when I got to one and I thought it was bad, I would switch it with another and that one was bad too(dumb luck) so I assumed it was not the tracks since I did not think 2 could be defective.  I had to tear up my whole layout to start from the first track and hook up one after another to narrow it down.  I was not a happy camper.   When I got to one that did not work, I would take the one right before it that I knew did work and try it in that spot and it would work, so I knew it was the track (and not a cable or something).  That's a 30% failure rate in my case, not very good.  The problem is you don't know if its the track you are putting in, the cable between the tracks or even the output port of the track prior to the one you are putting in.  So for each one you have to go step by step looking at 3 things.  I also found out from service I was almost at the max modules that the power supply could handle and they thought it might be a low power situation, but they have no solution, as there is no bigger power supply or a way to hook up 2 power supplies. Luckily that was not the issue.

I am using the LCS system to do everything by command, but it seems it was not designed for layouts with a lot of modules.  I may need to add another ASC2 so hopefully I won't run short of power.

Apparently the way it works is when the engine passes over the sensor, the track sends the command through the PDI chain back to the Legacy base which then sends out the command to the engine.  It would be just like it was coming from the CAB2.  A bad track and the commands get all messed up.  So if you can do things like blow the whistle from the CAB2 on the same section of track then its not a Base to Engine issue, its a sensor track issue.

I got almost all mine from the last batch that came in, so not sure if there is some issue with the last run of sensor tracks.

My advice is do not permanently put anything down on your layout until you test all commands one by one on each track.  Also, apparently there is some hardware issue (they did not share the details) and in some cases you may need a filter (from Lionel) if you have an issue where Record Ready mode drops out before the recording starts.  Lionel has a fix, which is a filter you plug into the last module of the chain.

Every LCS module I installed up until the sensor tracks worked perfect.  I just spent a month trying to figure out what was happening.  Luckily I have a LHS to go exchange tracks but if you are a mail order person, its going to be a bigger pain. 

I now have all 10 working. 

Interesting...very. Thanks for sharing your experience.

on the power supply, I would guess one could replace the plug in 12 vdc 1 amp wall wart with a bigger one.

The terminating end of daisy chain is probably a resistor across the data pair of wires.

Hi Sean, Thanks very much for the info. Just my luck to get a duff unit. As you say returns will no doubt be interesting here from the UK.

Rudy, Did some testing this afternoon. SER2 works perfectly. Wifi also works great, as a aside this is very cool. I swapped the LCS cables around and they all worked fine with the Wifi and SER2. Still no joy on the sensor track. 

Nick

Nick, I understand you are in touch with Lionel customer service, which is what I was about to suggest. Our test layout has a dozen SensorTracks on it, we haven't seen these issues--but something is not right. We are looking into this here in Engineering.

Thanks Rudy,

yes I am in touch with Service. I have just got a procedure to try from them. I will give it a go tommorow. Been at work since 05:30 today and it's getting late here in the UK.

Nick

I did wonder about the cables in regard to the data. I wondered how many 20 foot cables one could run in series. Not my issue yet, but I do have two 10 and two 20 foot ones in series. Once I figure where I want these sensor tracks, I could use some shorter more direct runs if necessary.

Rudy couple of questions/comments.

1.  How do we know when they exceed the power supply, what are the symptoms?  I plan to add some more ASC2 Modules but hesitant because everything's working now and don't want issues again.

2.  The noise comment I got directly from the High Rail website about the filter fix, so that's what they said was the reason I needed the filter.

Thanks

Sean, the current draw for each LCS module is printed in the Specifications section of that product's Owner's Manual, the LCS power supply is conservatively rated at 1 amp.

I'm in touch with the High Rail developer pretty regularly, we'll see if we can be a little clearer in our communication. I just don't want folks to get the impression that High Rail is causing a problem--as Marty says, the noise issue some users have experienced happens regardless of wether High Rail is running or not.

Thanks MartyE and Railsounds for clarifying that the "noise" issue is a LCS hardware issue and not a High Rail software issue. The post on the High Rail site - mentioned by Sean -has been updated. Hopefully it helps. 

I originally had all 20ft cables between the sensor tracks.  I used 20 ft's because at the time I bought everything I was not sure where the tracks would be and how far I would need to run the cables.  So I figured I was just use the longest ones and coil up the extra cable under the layout.  One of the troubleshooting steps I did was replace all the 20's with 10 ft's.  That did not make a difference so I'm thinking length is not a factor.

Thanks for getting that clarified.  The website did not mention the hardware was the cause of the noise, but I see they have updated it now.  Regardless, the filter resolved my issue with the record ready mode drop.

I'm a little wary of the connectors. Making sure they are plugged in all the way. Not saying, but in general, that's another variable.

Just a update guys.

Tried the tests requested by Lionel Service and it appears track is faulty. Have to return to US dealer. 

Nick

Hey Nick,

Not sure where you purchased it, but in the future if you want to buy any other LCS stuff or anything for that matter, if you buy through Nicholas Smith I can go there and test it for you before they ship it so you are sure you don't get a defective one.

Hi All,

         Just a update to the Sensor Track saga. Returned to the U.S.A and just received replacement yesterday. 

 The new one behaves better. However I have noted that it sometimes stops working and won't flash the green Led if a sensor equiped loco runs over it. 

 However I have done a bit of experimentation and found if I run the Legacy Base and LCS power supply from a 50Hz source it works correctly with no issues! As noted above my layout runs from a 60Hz Pure-Sine wave source. Which is the same or better than the USA mains.

50Hz has been pretty toxic for Lionel equipment in the past which is why I have avoided powering my layout from it. 

Very weird although the 1.54 software which is a 50Hz fix obviously appears to work.

Although I kept the track powered with 18V AC 60Hz.

I wonder what is frequency dependent in that sensor track?

Any thoughts on this Rudy or jon?

Nick

Nick,

I assume that in your 60Hz Environment the earth ground connection from the Legacy base might be insufficient, as you have in between a DC source.

I suggest, if not yet done, that you use the pin 5 of the Legacy base to create an ''earth ground'' in your 60Hz environment. Then try it again  connecting the base only to your 60Hz environment.

I have a 60Hz Installation for test purposes going enroute of converters 50 HzAC->DC->60HzAC that works  proper in a complete separated environment only with an additional pin 5 connected ''earth ground''.

Regards

Albrecht

Hi Albrecht,

                Thanks for the information. I'll give that a try.

I tried my most troublesome older TMCC loco (missile launch from around 1999/2000 and it went nuts as normal when the base is run from a 50Hz environment. It works fine on 60Hz.  All the Legacy engines I have tried work fine on 50Hz.

Regards

Nick

Nick,

to amend: all TMCC engines with Odyssey equiped with a motor driver labeled ''FM3'' will only work proper in 60Hz environment, unfortunately not in 50Hz environment.

Recently I checked the layout of a friend who had problems with his TMCC engines. Interestingly the only Legacy equiped engine worked well. His earth ground was missing, as he used a step down transformer with only two pins.So, the earth ground from the TMCC base to the wall plug was missed. I added the missing earth ground and that helped to operate the TMCC engines properly. As an alternative I tried a replacement ''earth ground'' via pin 5 that helped as well.

Regards

Albrecht

Albrecht, 

            Thanks very much for the info. We have been trying for years to be able to identify the board versions that cause trouble on 50Hz. 

I can add the 6-18462 missile launch engine with ACDR and 0D0 RL2C does not like 50Hz. 

Taking on board what you have said regards earth ground. Up until installing the sensor track now I have not had any problems. My inverter and DC supply have earth continuity from the U.S. Outlet to the U.K. plug earth pin. I have always been very careful regards earth ground continuity. 

After your suggestion. I  added a bypass for the earth ground direct from the Legacy Base to the house earth ground. Now sensor track works! 

Very strange. 

I will try the pin 5 tip as well when I get hold of a RS232 9Pin 3 way tap.

Thanks Again

Nick

Not too strange, the earth ground wire in the house may be less present as an antenna to the layout than the extra wire directly from pin #5. The extra wire being at least an additional antenna wire as well.

I have found too that my SC-2s are now reliable with a pin #5 earth ground wire above them. BTW, the SC-2s on a separate power supply also benefitted from having their COM terminals connected to the U terminal of the track (outside rails)

Nick,

happy to hear that the pin 5 connection works .

Now of interest is: did you disconnect the earth ground en route of the inverter and DC supply or do you run now both connections in parallel ?

The background is: I metered the output between pin 5 and outside track with an oscilloscope of my Legacy base; the signal was very strong with the existing earth ground, but I had problems with three Legacy equiped engines; they lost signal passing several different spots  of my layout and stopped. Additional ground pads did not help; I made trials with different earth ground connections, at the end I added an additional second earth ground Connection in parallel to a different wall plug that degradated the Signal strength remarkably and that helped. The three 'problem engines' passed the critical spots as well as the other ones !

So my suggestion is:in case you could meter the output of the pin 5 solution against the 'old' solution, try it and let us know the result. 

Regards

Albrecht

And now tonight sensor track does not work again.... 

Hmm I am beginning to think I can't be bothered with the sensor track. Everything else works very nicely. 

I have a small Pocket Scope so I will have a look at the signal.

Nick

Nick,

Its not just you.  I have been having the same issues with my sensor tracks.  I have been working with Lionel engineering.  They sent me a diagnostic program and we worked through it on the phone for an hour and a half.  They are trying to replicate it.  I just sent all 10 of my sensor tracks to California for them to look at and am waiting to hear back.  After we ran through the diagnostics they know what the issue is  (noise), they just don't know where its coming from and are trying to replicate it.   That's one reason I went with one manufacturer.  Lionel ZW-L, Lionel LCS, Lionel Legacy and All Lionel Legacy engines.  I figured I would not run into issues like this if I stuck with one manufacturer, but oh well.  They will work one moment and then not the next.  Each time it can be different on how they act. 

Stay tuned, hopefully they will figure it out or come up with a solution.

After the thread here, I minimized the lengths of my sensor cables...just to be efficient. And I left a 20 foot cable on the output end sensor not connected to anything. My sort of characteristic impedance termination. I've not ever had issues with the five sensor tracks though.

We shall see...but they're working and fun.

BTW, I have recently installed a speedometer circuit card with four sensor pairs of pickups. I had trouble at first getting them all to agree the they were getting proper light for the passing train to block and trigger the timer.

The issue turned out to be the LED spot light track lighting. I replaced two of them where the sensor LEDs were located with halogen lights and all the issues went away. They work perfectly now.

What your eye thinks it sees is not necessarily what a sensor sees.

Sean, Electrical noise might make sense. Glad your making the phone calls, hour and a half on the the phone to California from the UK would cost a fortune! I hope they have Skype Or FaceTime 

Chuck, That's a good point. I thought about lighting yesterday but they are halogens. 

But I'll try during the day with the lights off. 

Cheers Nick

I'm not sure if they were referring to electrical noise or RF noise. But hopefully they can replicate my problem in CA and we will see what they say

Just an update.  My sensor tracks issues have been resolved!  All 10 of my tracks now work correctly.  I sent them to the engineering team in California.  They shipped them back to me, but no note or anything in the box.  I contacted Lionel support to see what happened and they said that all they told them was the sensor tracks were repaired or replaced to meet design specifications.  So after 3 months of trying to get these to work, it's finally resolved.  Obviously it was something with the tracks themselves as that's all I sent to them.  We previously tried, cables, power supply, etc, but in the end it was the tracks.  I don't know if they were just defective from a manufacturing defect or if there is some design issue with them.  The screws that hold the cover plate on the bottom look like they had been removed and replaced as some were a little stripped, but again I have no information on what was actually done so I'm just guessing.

If anyone has the same issue (sensor tracks acting erratic or not working at all), the only resolution is to send them to Lionel as just exchanging them for a replacement (like I did 3 times) may not solve it as the replacement you are getting might have the same issue.  Remember, all mine were brand new sealed when I got them and never worked from day 1 when they were all hooked up together.

Nick, I would contact Lionel.  Maybe they will send you a shipping label since there must be some issue with them.

Thanks to Lionel for putting the effort in to replicate my system and correct the issue.  I'm very happy now my entire LCS system works.

Hi Sean,

           Thank you for the update. Yes I'll contact Lionel again and see if I can send my track back to them.

Best Regards

Nick