The new 3rd Rail H-10 from Scott Mann

I’ve sent Scott a couple of B&A photos of there version of the H10 which I got from the NYC historical Society.  Never did got a response. If interested I could send them to you Monday, they are on my work computer.

Absolutely!

@Pete Kruimer posted:

Absolutely!

Pete, what NYC cab numbers are you suggesting having built? The details changed over time and from one engine to another.
A few of us have built or are building H10s.

Pete

@Pete Kruimer posted:

Absolutely!

I’ll send them Monday

Thanks Gary.

Pete,

We are still in the throws of road numbers and variations.  I can tell you that the B&A will be the only one as delivered with the short 6 axle tender.  All the others will be later versions.

Pete,

Thanks for posting this.  While my role on the project will likely be some minor backchecking and possibly painting and lettering Scott and I had a great conversation about this project two weeks ago and it sounds like he has an excellent collection of accurate information to make this project as you mention in the OP the best effort to date.

It is nice to see those who patiently waited on this project seeing that patience rewarded.

Scott, Jonathon, Pete K, the reason I ask is because I am building cab number 2346 which has a water tube pilot and twin compressors on the front pilot. Other variations include step pilots with front compressors and step pilots with fireman side twin air compressors, likely a few more I don’t have pictures of. I might be interested if another version is done.

Richard Leonard has a web page with a number of these variations, I would post a link but thats apparently not allowed here but just google his name and NYC steam though you are no doubt aware of it.

Pete

I’m in the same boat as Pete, ….I’ve built 2321, which is a H10b, with foot board pilot & twin shielded compressors on the pilot,….so I as well would consider a different number, and configuration,….

Pat

@Norton posted:

Pete, what NYC cab numbers are you suggesting having built? The details changed over time and from one engine to another.
A few of us have built or are building H10s.

Pete

The NYC proper had H10a's numbered from 1 - 122.

#1 would be good, though it may present some transitory identity crises under TMCC....

#19 would be fine, just because I have a photo of it (NYCSHS steam book) with all the H10 goodies: Elesco, outside dry pipe, 12-wheel tender. Somehow, outside dry pipes always remind me of skyline casings.

But, any single- or double-digit number would be fine.

Tiny numbers on big steamers owned by big RR's appeal to me.

WERE H-10'S EVER IN PASSENGER SERVICE?

@marty track posted:

WERE H-10'S EVER IN PASSENGER SERVICE?

Probably not, what with only 63" diameter drivers.

@marty track posted:

WERE H-10'S EVER IN PASSENGER SERVICE?

Jack is correct, No H10s were in passenger service, they were purpose built freight locomotives, and did not have the equipment, nor the speed to handle passenger service,….they were high powered, slow grunt machines, specific for hauling tonnage …

Pat

@Pete Kruimer posted:

Thanks Gary.

Pete,

We are still in the throws of road numbers and variations.  I can tell you that the B&A will be the only one as delivered with the short 6 axle tender.  All the others will be later versions.

Your email isn't in your profile, send me a email and I'll send you the pics.

@harmonyards posted:

.they were high powered, slow grunt machines, specific for hauling tonnage …

...and poster-power for this cartoon...IMHO...

Pete and Pat,

We won't be doing either one of those road numbers, and will be doing different variations, but all models will have step pilots.

Good Evening Pete,

  As a P&LE fan,  I am very interested in reserving/purchasing the P&LE H10b #212 with the olive green paint and all weather cab.   I have numerous P&LE books with photos/technical information.   If I recall,  the P&LE received their last 5 H10 Mikados about 1950.   These were purchased used from the NYC and on the P&LE had P&LE engine numbers 212-216.   Numbers 213,  214, and 215 were H10a's,   while numbers 212 and 216 were H10b's.   All five of them received all weather cabs which were basically identical to the all weather cabs on the P&LE A2a Berkshires from a couple years earlier.    The 3rd Rail reservation information correctly shows P&LE #212 as an H10b with the all weather cab.   My question is that olive green paint.   In digging through all my books/information,  I cannot find any reference to any of these last 5 Mikados(212-216) being painted in that dark olive green paint(which is the color that all the A2a Berkshires were painted).    Did you manage to find some information/evidence that I have overlooked,  that at least #212 was painted in that olive green paint?   I really hope so,  as I would love to order that particular engine.

Thanks for the work you have put into this project

Nick,

Website is not up to date, so please be patient.  We have already recommended to Scott to do 212 and 216 for the b's.  Division point painted their H-10b with a green boiler and I think this is where Scott got this from.  They are usally pretty accurate but we could not find any with a green boiler either.  I'll email division point and ask him.

Did the PRR give the LIRR  any of these locomotives?

Pete,

Thanks for responding.   I'll keep my eyes open for any news/updates on the P&LE H10b's.

Found this photo of the Division Point H10-b with green boiler.  I am very excited if this is the green we get.

Dave

@FJI posted:

Did the PRR give the LIRR  any of these locomotives?

The NYC H-10 is a very different locomotive than the PRR H10s. 

The NYC model being discussed is Mikado class 2-8-2 and a very powerful example of that class of locomotive.  The PRR H10 was a 2-8-0 Consolidation and while used in drag freight service, did not nearly have the output of the NYC H-10. 

In service the PRR H10 mostly served Lines West so I don't believe any were on the LIRR roster, however PRR H9s did serve on the LIRR.

The NYC Mikados would probably pound the LIRR track to dust since that road never rostered any heavy steam locomotives being primarily a commuter road.  I believe the largest steam locomotive operated were PRR K4s for a period of time.  Light machines compared to the NYC H1-10s.

@marty track posted:

WERE H-10'S EVER IN PASSENGER SERVICE?

I stand myself corrected, …H10’s were used in passenger service on a stand in basis only, ….I read an excerpt of an H10 pulling the James Whitcomb Riley as a sub, the engineer complained of a jaw breaking, back breaking ride at 50 mph,….when he shot it up to 60 mph, the engineer said the ride was as smooth as a baby buggy,…so there is evidence of H10’s doing double duty, …albeit, I’d summarize it was rare, as these were purpose built for tonnage …..

Pat

OK.  So.  There is no evidence that P&LE painted boilers green on their H-10bs.  Having said that, I recommended to Scott that he still do them.  While this may be the first time 3rd Rail breaks from absolute prototype fidelity, I think no harm no foul.  First, there are a number of guys that wil buy them which will help the project move forward.  Second, it will be a pretty nice looking locomotive and hardly in the vein of a daylight scheme.  (Black boiler H-10bs will still be produced)  I think as long as the deviation from prototype paint is pointed out, everyone is aware of it and if it moves the project over the top then it should be done.  Thy Kingdom....

@harmonyards posted:

I stand myself corrected, …H10’s were used in passenger service on a stand in basis only, ….I read an excerpt of an H10 pulling the James Whitcomb Riley as a sub, the engineer complained of a jaw breaking, back breaking ride at 50 mph,….when he shot it up to 60 mph, the engineer said the ride was as smooth as a baby buggy,…so there is evidence of H10’s doing double duty, …albeit, I’d summarize it was rare, as these were purpose built for tonnage …..

Pat

Goes back to the "never say never" and there is a prototype for everything.  I have a photo of a PRR L1s Mikado pulling a passenger train on the NY&LB.  Extremely rare too, but it was like a summer train where the steam heat wasn't necessary and being a commuter route the speeds were never that high.

Glad you found this as I'm sure a few orders from passenger train enthusiasts will result!

@Pete Kruimer posted:

and hardly in the vein of a daylight scheme

The sad part is that would likely sell.......

H-10 Daylight

H-10 Amtrak Phase III Heritage

H-10 Conrail

H-10 Penn Central

H-10 Blackbonnet

Step right up!

Pardon the photo quality. I just snapped these.

My H-10. Not sure of the brand. Brass. Old. 2RO.  I actually converted experimentally it to ERR Cruise Commander (all electronics/3rd rail pickups in/on the tender) years ago. It did run down the GarGraves just fine, but the switches - as I expected, but hoped against - were problematic.

Before conversion, I "tested" it - by pushing it - around the 0-72 curves and 0-100 GG switches. I was hopeful. But, not to be. I knew it. Still, had to try it. No go. Removed the ERR and put it elsewhere.

I have considered putting the superstructure on a Williams brass Samhongsa USRA Mike chassis, much like I created my NYC K-5 Pacific using an Ajin shell and a Wms chassis - but, the valve gear would be wrong in this case, and it would bug me every time I looked at it.

Pete,

Thanks for the information concerning the P&LE H10b's and the green boiler paint.   So we're possibly going to have a "what could have been/fantasy" paint scheme.    I agree with your above comments and am still very interested in one of these,  but I also have a suggestion.    In looking at the photo of the Division Point H10b in the post above,   even though it looks handsome,  I don't believe the P&LE would have ever used that bright a shade of green on it's boilers(it just wasn't in their DNA-LOL).   If anything,   (in my opinion) the P&LE would have have used same  the dark olive green paint that was used on their A2a Berkshires which were delivered a few years earlier,  especially since we're talking about the same time frame(early 50's).   Some years ago,   MTH produced a version of the P&LE A2a with the dark olive green paint that looked pretty good compared with the prototype.   So if the P&LE green boiler H10b will still be produced,   I respectfully submit that the boiler shade of green be the same dark olive green as used on the A2a Berkshires.   What are your and Scott's thoughts on this idea?

Pete and Pat,

Do either of you guys have a thread on building your H-10s?  Sounds like this would be fun thread to read and learn from.

Gary,

Got the pics.

Dave likes the bright green and Nick prefers the dark olive.  Painting will be up to Scott, does anyone else have any opinions?   The brighter green looks cool, but I think if the PL&E did do this, it would probably been done in the dark olive.

D5,

Sounds like you need a new H10b.

Jonathan,

I'm in for a Conrail H-10b.

Pete, Mine is still a work in progress. Still a lot of details to deal with.

This is what I started with.

I will start a thread when its finished.

I posted this teaser a few weeks ago on Alex’s what are you working on thread.

Tell Scott he has to up his game.

Pete

Will do!

I think I did a thread on mine??……man,…..don’t get old,…it’s sucks!…I’ll look for it,..

Pat

While I look for my H10b build thread, …ima throw this at you fellas,…the P&LE A2 Berks were the last steam locomotives built by Alco …..so last, they didn’t even have the bandwidth to build the tenders, …that shop had already been closed down, and revamping for diesel locomotive construction……the story goes, the A2   Berks for the P&LE were painted with colors left over from an order that was not completed for another railroad, ……so I don’t know that’d I use the P&LE berks as the color pallet for the green H10’s if that’s where y’all are going,….I mean, I’m not ordering a B&A H10 anyways, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree with A2 Berk??….what’s Gary got to say about this? and any response from Division Pointless?…

Pat

Thanks to Pete, ( Norton ) here’s the link to my H10b build …

Pat

https://ogrforum.com/...1#157970176464012161

Pat,

I will stick with my (probably flawed ) logic on the dark olive green paint since this will be a "what if/fantasy" paint scheme anyway.   These last 2 P&LE H10b's,  #212 & #216 were actually built by Lima back in the 1920's for the NYC with different road numbers..   In 1949,  these two engines along with three H10a's,  #213, #215, and #215 were rebuilt/shopped by the NYC which included adding the exact same all weather cabs that were used on the A2a's a year earlier.   You would think that these cabs were probably leftovers from Alco since they didn't build any more steam engines.   In early 1950,  the NYC sold these engines #212-#216 to the P&LE for around $75,000 each.   The P&LE then swapped out the 15,000 gal tenders for their own 16,000 tenders.  So in my viewpoint(my opinion only) with all the timeframes being pretty close,  it wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine the dark olive green paint being applied to one or two of the H10b's.   Again,  that's my theory on the paint and I'm sticking to it-LOL

Dave likes the bright green and Nick prefers the dark olive.  Painting will be up to Scott, does anyone else have any opinions?

Since this is a project has reached a decision gate where those who may have already supported it by putting in an pre-order need to help move it along, I guess it's only appropriate that I help contribute with what is nothing more than a singluar, personal opinion.
I'm not a die-hard NYC or PL&E fan. So please take that into account when considering the opionins of those clearly more knowledgable and passionate about the subject. But I am definitely a 3rdRail supporter, and this is one of those locomotives that simply caught my eye, and thought it was a fantastic looking locomotive. It'd be shame not to add to the collection.

That all being said,  When Scott re-announced this project a couple weeks back and we had to go back in and recommit our orders - I had already had a longstanding order for an H10B - I actually went in and changed my original order from, if I recall correctly a NYC H10b, over to the PL&E NYC H10b explcitly because I was under the impression is would be the bright green, a la Division Point rendition. I had seen that same photo when doing my own reseach into what this model might turnout to look like. It absolutely is a striking looking model in that color.
I have a version of the Timken 3-ACES Scott did a few years ago. It is one of the few locomotives I have on display on it's own away from the larger display cases becaus it is that captivating. There is something about green that looks good on a locomotive.

All that being said, I am generally not complete fan of fantasy schemes. But...if they're done tastefully, I'm not a complete stickler for such things in this hobby.

So I guess you could say I'm on the side of Dave & Pete on this one: Acknowledge the fantasy nature  and bring on the bright green please! Either that, or someone needs to find a photo actually showing one of these with that green paint!
Especially since I've since found a couple pictures of what the olive greeen looks like on the A2 Berk. Galcier Park models has a photo within their webpage. Can't say I'd be a fan.
I wouldn't cancel my order if the decision were made to stick with history and go olive green - I'd likely need to see a photo or rendition first.
But worst case, I'd like revert back my original order: a standard black NYC H10.
So at the end of the day, this all amounts to no net loss from an overall order standpoint. But hopefully helps to contribute to some variety.

-Joe

@metalman posted:

Pat,

I will stick with my (probably flawed ) logic on the dark olive green paint since this will be a "what if/fantasy" paint scheme anyway.   These last 2 P&LE H10b's,  #212 & #216 were actually built by Lima back in the 1920's for the NYC with different road numbers..   In 1949,  these two engines along with three H10a's,  #213, #215, and #215 were rebuilt/shopped by the NYC which included adding the exact same all weather cabs that were used on the A2a's a year earlier.   You would think that these cabs were probably leftovers from Alco since they didn't build any more steam engines.   In early 1950,  the NYC sold these engines #212-#216 to the P&LE for around $75,000 each.   The P&LE then swapped out the 15,000 gal tenders for their own 16,000 tenders.  So in my viewpoint(my opinion only) with all the timeframes being pretty close,  it wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine the dark olive green paint being applied to one or two of the H10b's.   Again,  that's my theory on the paint and I'm sticking to it-LOL

And that’s fine, ….no harm no foul, if that’s what you’d like, that’s cool,….but let’s look at the facts, ….by 1950, the Central proper was already in a state of decline, …and the P&LE was still a told railroad ( “ I thought I told you “ ) I’m not sure the Central would’ve spent the extra money to paint locomotives, regardless of how much they resembled the A2’s …..again, the P&LE wasn’t really given the option on the A2’s they were kinda shoved down their throats, ….they wanted to go diesel, ….but daddy said no!…I mean, in the spirit of how you portray it, have a ball, but practically, I can’t see it, ….I can see the need for the all weather cabs, but I’d be willing to bet they were improvised add ons, not “spare cabs just lying around “ again, by 1950, the Central proper was looking for ways to cut costs, not generate it,…..

Pat

FWIW, the color in the photo I posted looks a bit brighter in the post.  The actual downloaded photo looks more muted, shading toward olive, but not quite olive.  I'd take olive as well.  Anything brighter than the posted photo above and I might reconsider going with all black.

Dave

Like many fans of NYC power, I've long found the idea of a Scott Mann produced H10 to be very desirable, but the advertised price point is now too deep for my pockets. I might even have gone for the green-jacketed P&LE H10b which, despite the suspect color, is to me the most visually interesting locomotive the NYCS ever rostered.

In any case, I do hope this project finally goes forward for those who are willing and able to pay the price.

- Crank

Just looked at the Glacier Park A2 Berk photo, not a fan of that color.  If it goes that direction, I'll opt for the black version.

Dave