Track vs noise...again

I have found Homasote to work best. Lay that over the plywood. Does not matter what track. Noice will be cut down considerably.

The solid rail MTH track is much quieter then the hollow.

Plastic roadbed track (any brand) is designed for soft surfaces like pile carpet, not traditional plywood or rigid foam underlayment.  Attaching the track with screws or other securement will exacerbate the issue.  I would pop over to your local carpet retailer and pick up some plush carpet remnants and cut them to the rough shape of the track, and nestle it into the hollow voids.  If that is not to your liking, I've also used 1/4"-1/2" EPDM sheet cut to be a roadbed.  It will not conduct noise due to the closed cell nature of the product.  You can find it at a HVAC distributor.  Finally, speed is a factor with this type of track. If you run scale speeds, you will be fine.  It increases in rail noise if running 125 smph like some postwar guys do.  

CALNNC posted:

I had a longer post leading up to this question, so just posting the question.   Can MTH track be effectively silenced on plywood installed over 1X4 grid work attached to  the walls?  Yes, I read quite a few posts, but most brag about how quiet you can make Atlas and Gargraves track.  Out of the question for me.

Get something rubber to put under the track. Then, don't run any lighted cars with pick-up rollers, mimimize the number of boxcars or other hollow freight cars or cabeeses.

I think you'll find the sound acceptable at that point, unless, you run the trains at ludicrous speed.

Slight thread drift.

Just a note about padding under your track and surrounding areas.  I have found that Lionel post-war accessories seem to work best on a hard surface.  I'm speaking of the ones that use vibrator motors.  They also like to be fastened to the platform with screws.  So carpeting, used as a base for your layout may be an issue with these accessories.

You also added an element I think many are overlooking as a sound source. A source that can effectively transmit vibration throughout a house worse than usual too; you are connecting to a wall. 

If it is on legs near the wall, you could sandwich foam or sound board bewtween layout & wall, & go to nylon screws with rubber backing to the wall since legs are supporting it up structurally you only need to keep it from shifting as you lean. There are also rubber expansion insert nuts ("well inserts") with metal threads that are excellent for isolation especially if used with a nylon machine screw,(and hold very well)

  Brick is no biggie, plaster somewhat better, but drywall can turn into a big percussion instrument if not isolated. Ask someone with a shelf layout

Felt, cork, rubber, homasote, caulk, carpet, etc under just your track helps with direct noise and transmitted noise & the "echo" off the bottom.

The  surface covering helps absorb sounds reflecting up.

Although my 5x8 layout has FasTrack just sitting on the surface, I learned the hard way about track noise with my first off-the-floor Christmas layout. I had screwed Gargraves track to the Luan board surface. What I got was rumbling thunder. Replacing the screws with plastic tie-downs solved the noise problem. 

Well, sounds like I have the perfect storm of noise generation.  The benchwork is attached to a wall that is paneling over studs, but at least there is both insulation board and fiberglass behind it.   I have tried plain styro insulation board under the MTH, then cork on top of the insul. board under the MTH, and none of it is as quiet as plain old Lionel 3 rail over cork on the plywood.  I also don't notice enough improvement with cork on the styrofoam with the tubular to custom cut a layout full of it.  The rubber back carpet idea is worth a try, have some scrap around here somewhere.   Of course I have only run a vintage loco back and forth over a 10 foot straight stretch for the testing. 

CALNNC,

   The way I deaden my RealTrax and FasTrack sound completely when I want to, is to use Acoustic Ceiling Tile over the 3/4 plywood, then cover it with inside outside carpet.  This building technique deadens the sound so well that my wife ask me to remove some of it, so we could hear the Christmas Trains run again.  My wife likes to hear the trains a little at Christmas time. Got to admit I agree with her and the 2nd and 3rd level ovals, where the Lionel Hallmark Toy Maker Santa Train and the Conventional K-Line Coca Cola Santa Train are set up, eventually had the Tile and Carpet completely removed.  As was noted by another member the original solid rail RealTrax is much less noisy than the later hollow made RealTrax.  The Lionel FasTrack is noisy no matter what generation of FasTrack. However I may not use any sound suppression on my FasTrack Ceiling Christmas layout at all, it all depends on the actual sound level while the Trains are running.

PCRR/Dave

In the photo you can see the Carpet over the Tile on the 1st level and the bare 3/4 Ply on the 2nd and 3rd levels.  Using this method you can create your own sound level as the trains run.

Mark,

   Great Engineering idea sir, I used the thin rubber backed inside/outside Carpet in the same manner, the block carpet is a great idea and much easier to use.

PCRR/Dave

I believe a once long time member here did some tests, and the most noise isn't from the track but from the layout top vibrating like a drum.  He found hanging heavy curtains on the edge of the layout not only hid everything under the layout, but also went a great ways to reducing the noise.

My layout is Atlas track on Midwest cork wood glued to felt 3M spray adhesived to Home Depot Quiet Brace liquid nailed to 1/2 plywood screwed to an overly build framework.  I use Atlas track screws to hold the track down, they do not go into the plywood.  The layout is attached to the wall on one of the short ends.  Is it as quiet as I want, nope.  But it is as quiet as I'm going to get it.  I've done what I can and I'm going to move forward and enjoy it as I build and run.  The return on investment to make it quieter is not worth it, so I won't worry about it anymore.  Good luck and have fun!

Foam is simple and easy, but I didn't get the result I expected. Nice?, Sure. And for more than just flat terrain, a godsend. I don't find the plastic roadbed tracks any quieter than tubular, the sounds are just at a different frequency (and I'm not fond of roadbed noise's higher pitch)

I never thought moving to a layout from carpet would be quite so loud. I had been around plenty of basement layouts before, but doing in a normal room the noise becomes more apparent. Sometimes perception is a bear.

The flat out quietest I ever heard was felt, carpet, homasote, caulk, and cork alone. In that order and finding big felt isn't easy anymore.. Added layers when soundproofing help a lot too. (hard/soft/hard/soft, etc.  hard blocks & air gaps absorbs)

Also, unless you plan on moving it, it is better to pin track from shifting than hold it down tight; Nylon hardware helps stop vibration trasfer too.

   For a cheap underside material, if you were inclined, old egg cartons stapled to the underside. I've used them for soundproofing low budget band studios a number of times; sometimes layered near a foot thick

When they get in the way of a rewire, etc. rip a few off, and go make an omelette after the fix

Joe Hohmann posted:

I had screwed Gargraves track to the Luan board surface. What I got was rumbling thunder. Replacing the screws with plastic tie-downs solved the noise problem. 

I failed to mention that the Gargraves track was on a cork roadbed. The sound was caused by the screws contact with the wood base, with the cork doing little or no good.

Hmmm, I have found that foam ear plugs are a cheap, easy, and effective way to reduce noise. 

Paul.

Mark's (BanjoFlyer) comments are bang on. Whatever you use for insulating material between the track and plywood, make sure the track fasteners only go into the insulating material. The insulating material has to have separate fastening to the layout top. Any fastener fixing the track right through the insulator to the layout top will bypass the soft stuff and transmit sound. All you have to do is find the best insulator and Mark seems to have done it. 

If you decide to use carpet tiles, open a box and examine their thickness. If the price is to good to be true, there rejects and will vary in thickness. I had to return carpet tile because of that.

CALNNC,

  If you decide to use the block rubber backed Carpet Tile, using the Acoustic Ceiling Tile under it will completely deaden the sound, make sure however you use the right size screws that attach the FasTrack or RealTrax just to the Block Ceiling Tile and Acoustical Tile and not the plywood base, if you want a real dead silent layout.  Myself I have done it both ways and because I like to hear my trains run, I used the longer screws that screw everything down on to the plywood.  Got to admit however, the silent layout with just the Clickety Clack from the Train Engine and rolling stock is way cool also.

Dave Z,

   Good point about the reject block floor tile being different thicknesses, I never thought of that aspect when trying to use it.  Great advise!

PCRR/Dave

So, went sound proofing material shopping today from all the great suggestions here, found one thing nobody mentioned, wondered if there were any thoughts on it.  Talking about the multicolored, made up of pieces of foam rubber, under carper cushion.  One thing I noticed was that there was unevenness in any given area as to springiness, meaning there are harder spots in it.  It was true on each side, not wavy or thick and thin, just the amount of give varied.  With cork over it and regular tube rail, or MTH with plastic roadbed, looks like it might work, but does it have too much give and will cause the rail or roadbed to dip under a loco's weight?  Anybody try it?

Carpet foam comes in a wide variety of densities and quality. Something that soft can be covered with 1/4" plywood and still stop the sound from transferring into the base plywood. Without the 1/4" inch, heavy engines will flex the tracks up and down as they travel and stress the joints. 

You guys spend all kind of $$$$$ on sound, and then you ask for QUIET????? LOL

Simon

Personally, I'd be leery of the carpet foam underlayment as it has too much "give". Seems to me that, like insulation, the more you squish and flatten it out, the less effective it becomes as a sound deadener.

Mark - did you ever try to paint or apply glue and ground cover to the carpet pads ?

I wouldn't use carpet padding (at least the stuff I have pulled out from under carpet I pulled up), it is too soft and I suspect it won't work well. I don't know if you are using MTH realtrax with the plastic base or the stuff without it (some seemed to assume the plastic base stuff). 

One thought I had might be the rubber tile you can use in exercise rooms and such, you can often buy individual tiles and it isn't that expensive, you could cut that to go under the roadbed. One of the big things (if you aren't doing this already, great) is that when putting the track down, don't use nails to hold it to the board, glue the sound deadening stuff down, then glue the track to it (if you think you may want to bring it up later, spray tack adhesive might work for the tile, the track you could use something like a rubber cement or the like). By using glue you are helping isolate the track from the board. 

If the board is mounted to the wall as others point out that is a source of noise as well. At this point there may be nothing you can do without taking it apart totally. If the board rests on shelf brackets (kind of like this

------------------------          <------ board>

                    --------|  <Wall>

bracket- - >          |

                              |

(not an artist) You could in theory put some kind of sound deadening material between the bracket/support and the board (the white space in the picture above), but a big thing would be not to screw the board to the support arm, but glue the sound deadening material to the support arm then the board glues onto that. This could isolate the board from the wall and help deaden the sound transmission through the wall.  

bigkid posted:

I don't know if you are using MTH realtrax with the plastic base or the stuff without it (some seemed to assume the plastic base stuff). 

That is a good point, though users don't generally ask questions regarding noise when talking about MTH ScaleTrax. He didn't actually specific MTH RealTrax and might not even know MTH sells 2 types of track.

Yes, it is MTH Realtrax, mainly because I have a lot of it collected over the years, mostly the solid rail.  I also have a pile of original and aftermarket Lionel track.  031 and larger radius turnouts, crossings, etc., and planning on using just about all of it, so that is why I am experimenting on the best way to quiet down the noise.  From the info gleaned here, not much hope, primarily since my benchwork is attached to a paneled wall in addition to vertical supports in the front.  The exercise room floor material was mentioned, I did see that, a nice roll of it for around 30 bucks.  I have not found the rubber backed carpet tiles at any of the bigbox home stores.  My experience with that was it was supplied by real carpet companies that specialized in office space, they had the good stuff with the heavy rubber backing.  Will just pick one and roll the dice, not looking for dead quiet, just a way to lower the din when 2 or more trains are running at the same time on what is apparently an amplified speaker for racket.

Cork roadbed over homasote and a thick curtain are the best remedies mentioned.  Don't screw the track down, but drill appropriate holes through the ties for brads to hold track to cork and homasote. This provides for temperature and moisture changes and lasts for years.

I used hardwood floor "underlayment" material. Works splendidly. Got it via Amazon but HomeDepot or Lowes would be sure to have it. Not very thick (maybe 1/4 inch?) but it really soaks up the sound. 

On my last traditional Lionel layout, I used good old fashioned tubular track from Lionel and a green carpet underlayment.  That kept sound at a level that I could just tollerate without my ear muff hearing protection on.  The loud track noise is one reason I moved away from running my Lionel's outside of our layout under the tree each holiday season.  It never bothered me as a child, I was autistic then, but then my layouts were on the floor in my bedroom, which was carpet.  With the track on my carpet table, I used the locking tabs you used to be able to get to keep the track sections from seperating and didn't fasten it down at all.  With only running smaller traditional engines up to a Berkshire and F3's, the track stayed put and didn't creep around the table.  Noise abatement, in any scale(I have HO and G) is very importment for me.   When I run my G on my overhead loop, I put the plastic LGB wheels back in.  But for open houses behind my live steam locomotive, I put the metal ones back in.  That is how sensitive I am to sounds.           Mike the Aspie

I've gotten way more sensitive to sounds with age Mike, and the hearing isn't improving For me it's ambient or white noise; a constant din. You can bang on pan all day and I can block it out. But not a hissing ambiance, it beckons my attention and a need to stop it. 

For me, all the background noise is overwhelming and for me is not an age related issue.  I have struggled with this since I was young.  All the sounds that would not bother someone who is neurotypical or NT.  In school, any sound, from the ticking of the clock, pencils on paper writing and such would be so overwhelming that I was unable to concentrate.  I wear a headset style set of ear muffs at work, and while not required for most of the factory where I work, without them I cannot cope with all the sounds I am exposed to for 10 hours a day.   If I leave the metal wheels in my LGB rolling stock and run them on my overhead loop, its like someone dragging fingernails down a chalkboard to my ears. Putting the plastic wheels back in, fixes that.  So Lionel on the carpet is fine, on a plywood table without any carpet or on fastrak is not tollerable for me unless I wear my headset hearing protection.      Mike the Aspie

Well, after trying several of the ideas submitted here, I finally went with a product call PolyPro EPS insulation board for my wall mounted framing.  It is 1/2 inch thick, has foil on one side and a clear membrane on the other.  The main difference compared to others is that it is not a dense foam, it has give to it, but not so much train weight will be an issue.  It seemed to me the other foam board products were too densely packed, and transmitted noise pretty well. This product is very close to the suggestion about hardwood floor underlayment, looks very similar but 2 to 3 times as thick.  With cork under Lionel 3 rail, it is really quiet, loco noise and metal wheels on metal rail is about all you hear.  The MTH Railking solid rail  track, not as quiet, but quieter than anything else.  With cork under MTH on this board, there is not a significant improvement.  The real benefit to me was it is inexpensive, around 9 bucks a 4X8 sheet.

Excellent solution. I shall borrow it. 

What I liked about the underlyament idea was the ease of installation and price. But your idea appeals more. 

Happy Holidays!

LaramieJoe

  Last hearing test I took, I was good up to about 24khtz and detecting some beeps at 26k. That's why FT bothers me more, I hear more highs. Bass is tolerable, but actually confuses me at times. I can't hear deep voices well at all, which angers folks.. what!... what!  We are all different; I used to like noise. 

  Other than the govt testing me for genius for two weeks in third grade (119-124 average on multiple IQ versions... back then, lower now) I never had a clue or heard of Asperger's till a couple young, true genius relatives were diagnosed and family pointed to me too. I know I'm less sensitive than many, but still am...Oh, man those school clocks did suck! I paced myself while counting clicks to cope.

  My aspie charts look like a Mercury capsule tipped over; top to the left with communication running to the limit. Other than that I've always just reveled in being "a little different" my whole life. Love it or hate it, I make few apologies for it.

  Funniest thing (humor is my social search tool ), every adult aspie I know likes toy trains  

Dr Joseph V Russo/LaramieJoe,

    I do like the idea of the underlayment for wood flooring as sound suppression sense I discarded my acoustical ceiling tile as we moved.  What is the name of the underlayment material that worked well for you?  Saw lots of different stuff and some does not look like it would work at all.

I was thinking about fully covering my 3/4 ply with the underlayment or maybe cutting it and just using it under my FasTrack itself.  What method did you use as you built your layout?

CALNNC,

Tell me more about the Poly pro, where did you get it?  Definitely looking to cut the cost of constructing my new layout and still have decent sound suppression.

PCRR/Dave

When I build my table top Lionel layout again, the tubular track will be laid on green industrial carpet and fastened with zip ties thru the plywood underlayment.  Even then, I still have to wear my hearing protection headset with the noise.  Also an Aspie and the noise overload is a quick route to a nasty meltdown.  But my carpet floor layouts were much more tollerable, then I built a table top one without realizing how loud it would be.  My 2333 F3's were so much louder this way, and on fastrack its even worse.       Mike the Aspie

Some manufacturer's tracks do not lay flat and need to be screwed down securely. I like to have the sound proofing material sandwiched between plywood or OSB. Normally I use 1/2" plywood for the base, then 1/2" Homasote or 1/2" rubber tile fatigue padding, then 1/4" on top. Cork roadbed to finish it off if the track has no road bed. The 1/4" top also helps to protect the Homasote if you kneel on the layout to reach things.  1/2" sound proofing gives you plenty of space so screws don't reach the base plywood. I see the Homasote in Home Depot is a grey color now. Does anyone know if it is now treated with a fire retardant giving it that color? I've seen it burn slowly like a wick in the past and hope it's fire proof now. For the price around $28.00 a sheet, for a glue and sawdust/news paper mix, it should be.

Hello Dave (smiling as I recall 2001 A Space Odyssey, and a certain Apple Macintosh commercial).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHJkAYdT7qo

I was just looking at my notes this morning, so your question is perfectly timed!

1. When researching the idea initially, it was recommended that I use ArmaFlex Tap 18230 for the underlayment. It is available at Home Depot. 

2. But then I found Mp Global Quietwalk Underlayment (100 square feet) at Amazon, which purported to have even better deadening qualities. Besides that, and because I live in the middle of nowhere, I wouldn't have to drive 75 miles to the nearest Home Depot. So, I bought that instead at $46 a roll. https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

3. Initially, I tried laying cut pieces under the track. But the stuff is a bugger to cut, even with a sharp knife. It is intended to be laid down in one piece. Nevertheless, the piece-by-piece placements resulted in measurable sound reduction! (my table top is 1/2 inch interior plywood). 

4. Elsewhere on the table top I had glued down Woodland Scenic's grass mat. But I was not happy with that at all. Initially, I was thinking it would replicate the classic Lionel green on their marketing store displays sent out in the 1940s and 1950s. Not to be. It looked horribly fake and actually amplified noise.

5. So, I decided to lay the underlayment across the entirety of the table top. I stapled it into the plywood at about 12" repeats. The stuff lays nearly perfectly flat! The resulting deadening effect was even more profound! And remember those pieces of underlayment I'd cut earlier? I didn't throw them away. Instead, I used them to ensure a level track lay in various places. The picture will give you an idea.

Of note is the incredible dryness of a Laramie winter. My plywood table-top is measurably different now than it was back in, say, August. Dried out, I guess. The underlayment solves the problem of slightly uneven table-top, which is a good thing. But ...

6. This presents a slight problem with regard to scenery. The underlayment is squishy and would not hold even glued-down grass (I don't think). But I am not a modeler in that sense, so the problem is not that big for me. Still, as I intended to have lots of buildings and streets, I knew that the underlayment would be covered to some extent. For the remaining exposed areas I have decided to cover the underlayment with 1/2" poplar pieces cut to size.  

7. I am in the middle of cutting those poplar pieces now. I have attached some pictures so that you get the general idea. As I do this, I am envisioning using the poplar pieces as one might use foam insulation board - that is, I will cut them to resemble, say, "stylized" buttes as one might see in the desert. Again, I am in this for the action, Dave, and not the scenery (although I admire greatly men who can model scenery with the incredible detail and realism that they do!). 

8. I am thinking that once my layout is in place, a spray of sound deadening foam underneath the table top will also help. I will test that one section at a time (the bench work is from Mianne and results in neat and tidy 2' x 2' cells that would be perfect for limiting spray). 

There you have it. Thanks for asking and thank you for your signature line about "walking in the way of the Lord." I have begun to use that line in my counseling of Christian and Jewish clients. It truly resonates with them, and me. 

Dr. Joe

Well, it is obvious that picking soundproofing is like picking a wife, everybody has different ideas.  As I mentioned a few replies back, I am now using PolyPro EPS insulation board .  This is a styrofoam product with foil on one side and clear plastic on the other.  The main plus is that it is springy, not hard like normal foam insulation or ceiling tile material.  I tried it under Realtrax and its plastic roadbed, and it did an acceptable job.  With Lionel tubular on cork, it was dead quiet.  My frame work is open grid attached to the paneled walls, and 3/8 plywood on top of the grid.  The other main plus is that it is inexpensive, around 9 bucks a 4X8 sheet.

Richie C. posted:

Personally, I'd be leery of the carpet foam underlayment as it has too much "give". Seems to me that, like insulation, the more you squish and flatten it out, the less effective it becomes as a sound deadener.

Mark - did you ever try to paint or apply glue and ground cover to the carpet pads ?

 

Yes, the underlayment is "squishy." Good point. 

Whatever method works for you is best.  A lot depends on what your goals are scenery wise.  I like the classic postwar era layouts with green grass, plasticville buildings or going with the year round Christmas theme with Dept 56 buildings and such (have several from A Christmas story series that Sears carried years ago).  But for now its floor layouts.      Mike the Aspie.