Turning a toy into a model …..Tales From Harmon Shops

Wow Pat, a lot of detail work for sure.

That is going to be one mean looking Hudson. It almost makes me want one, but it would really look out of place on Western prairies, deserts and mountains.

I've been waiting for more Tales, awesome to see this locomotive hit the bench. As Pat said, it was branded as semi scale, but it is closer to scale than some others if I recall correctly from GRJ's post on his. Great start, can't wait to see more.

Another incredible project.  It may have been covered before but I do not recall how the "West Albany Stretch" is performed.  Is this a trade secret or can it be shared.  I know I'll never attempt it but curious minds want to know.

@harmonyards posted:

Lionel’s early TMCC C&O Hudson ( 6-18043 ) is actually a very sharp model, ….not sure why they designated it a semi-scale, when in fact it’s actually closer to scale then what I’d consider a semi scale locomotive, …….nonetheless, I wanted to take one of these to the next level, and of course, Pittman swap it, and modernize the electronics….

First & foremost, are the side rods, the way the axles look, and the fasteners…..The real 490 has a full complement of roller bearing rods. Lionel did make a decent main rod representing a roller bearing main, but the side rods and hardware are lacking….MTH makes a nice roller bearing type side rod, but it’s too short to use on the Lionel 700 type chassis ….Now, I can not take credit for this crucial step, it was designed, and first implemented by West Albany shops, aka Pete ( Norton ) So I took a set of MTH rods, and employed Pete’s technique the look is amazing!….next, I took the stock side rod bolts, center drilled them on the lathe, then knocked a T8 Torx bit in the precise hole to make a torx bit fitting for tightening,….afterwards, a return trip on the lathe to round off the stock hex flats. The fastener for the main was done similarly, but pocketed and fitted with a 2mm JIS screw for tightening……

And the fun part,…..My original thought was to simply center drill the axles of the locomotive, touch them up with some gray paint, and call it good, …..no way Jose!!…I don’t know what material these axles are made of, but it’s by far the hardest alloy I’ve ever seen employed by a model company …….EVER!!…..every bit I have in my arsenal barely scratched the faces of these axles!….even carbide bits were no match!!…they’d catch a tiny bit, and snap. This was starting to look like an expensive proposition,…..so I ceased the effort, and we went to plan B, ……Out in the big shops  I have my grandad’s railroad tools from the 1920’s-30’s. One of these tools makes small punch outs, I took some really thin brass sheet out there, and his tool still sharp as all get out, punched out these perfect tiny brass rounds, ……perfect for center drilling, and adhering to the Lionel solid Titanium axles ( not sure what they are made of, but we’ll roll with it ) after center drilling, I used 3M’s panel bonder adhesive to affix the new parts, then a swipe of JB quick as a filler for sanding & leveling,…..after a good paint match, we now have a set of drivers that look like the real thing, and rods & hardware far more appropriate & appealing……I’ll update this as the model progresses….

Pat

Pat, awesome project, you do great work! Excellent detail in the post too, that takes time! Also, I feel better about my workbench when I see yours filled with holes, punch marks, gauges, etc! LoL It has a history of great projects and a character of its own!!! My workbench is a close 2nd! Thanks for the post. More to come I hope, as I always look forward to your project posts.

I'm putting mine in a box to send back to Pat to get the great detailing on the wheels and rods.

@coach joe posted:

Another incredible project.  It may have been covered before but I do not recall how the "West Albany Stretch" is performed.  Is this a trade secret or can it be shared.  I know I'll never attempt it but curious minds want to know.

Joe, this is how one of us does this. The Lionel Commodore Vanderbilt also came with friction bearing rods on their Scullin Disk version that should have had roller bearing rods. Lionel’s Dreyfuss Hudson Came with RB rods that would have fit but had been sold out for years. Lionel’s Niagara’s RB rods are close but too short and siderods have to be near perfect or they will bind so this is how I lengthened them.
My milling machine has a table that can be raised or lowered to .001” resolution. That is the key requirement when trying to achieve an accurate fit.

I just cobbled some scrap that would hold each end of the rod and secured each end to the vise and a collet. Then applied heat and moved the table down the amount needed plus a few thousands extra to compensate for the shrink back when cooling.

Before

After

Surprisingly the oxidation was removed with a wire wheel in a dremel.

Pete

@WesternPacific2217 posted:

Pat, awesome project, you do great work! Excellent detail in the post too, that takes time! Also, I feel better about my workbench when I see yours filled with holes, punch marks, gauges, etc! LoL It has a history of great projects and a character of its own!!! My workbench is a close 2nd! Thanks for the post. More to come I hope, as I always look forward to your project posts.

Yep, unfortunately my bench looks like it was on the wrong end of angry National Guard rifle squad…..

Pat

One of the best mods we can do to any of these older Pulmor rebuilds, is to mod the scale pilot truck that’s included with these engines …….tonight, I did the axles by turning down the protruding bullet that just looks ugly, then center drilling the axles for a more appropriate look,……tomorrow, I’ll color the wheels of the pilot truck to match what’s supposed to be on the 490,…..maybe somebody can help with some accurate detail info for fun, …..does the 490’s pilot truck get brakes? ….

Pat

Awesome Pat.

Your amazing Pat everything you do is top notch and just when you completed a beautiful, detailed model you add even better custom details! Wow!!!

Alan

Looks great as always Pat!

Fantastic work as always, Pat.

Lionel's C&O 490 has always been a favorite, but seeing it get a full facelift by you is like night and day. It's little details that make a huge difference!

I love these Harmon Shops threads. It's amazing what these enhancements do to the overall look of the loco. Great work Pat!

@harmonyards posted:

One of the best mods we can do to any of these older Pulmor rebuilds, is to mod the scale pilot truck that’s included with these engines …….tonight, I did the axles by turning down the protruding bullet that just looks ugly, then center drilling the axles for a more appropriate look,……tomorrow, I’ll color the wheels of the pilot truck to match what’s supposed to be on the 490,…..maybe somebody can help with some accurate detail info for fun, …..does the 490’s pilot truck get brakes? ….

Pat

Obviously the pilot axles were not made of the same steel as the drivers.......

@Norton posted:

Joe, this is how one of us does this. The Lionel Commodore Vanderbilt also came with friction bearing rods on their Scullin Disk version that should have had roller bearing rods. Lionel’s Dreyfuss Hudson Came with RB rods that would have fit but had been sold out for years. Lionel’s Niagara’s RB rods are close but too short and siderods have to be near perfect or they will bind so this is how I lengthened them.
My milling machine has a table that can me raised or lowered to .001” resolution. That is the key requirement when trying to achieve an accurate fit.

I just cobbled some scrap that would hold each end of the rod and secured each end to the vise and a collet. Then applied heat and moved the table down the amount need plus a few thousands extra to compensate for the shrink back when cooling.

Surprisingly the oxidation was removed with a wire wheel in a dremel.

Pete

When Pat mentioned a "stretch" he wasn't kidding.....

Amazing work gents. Can't wait to see the finished product.

Bob

@RSJB18 posted:

Obviously the pilot axles were not made of the same steel as the drivers.......

When Pat mentioned a "stretch" he wasn't kidding.....

Amazing work gents. Can't wait to see the finished product.

Bob

Bob, the pilot axles are made of butter compared to the locomotive axles, ….I suspect since this engine was made stateside, perhaps a better alloy wire, and or whoever plated the axles actually cared about the quality,……axles made out of Chinesium are a breeze to bore through, chrome & all,…. That 490, I didn’t even make a scratch & I gave up,…..it would’ve been a tool destroyer before they capitulated,…..

Pete came up with the rod stretch idea, I just followed suit, ….Pete’s approach is elegant, and scientific,….I have the set up on my vise, with heavy studs, and I heat and stretch the shorter rod till the long rod drops on the studs,….quench, heat, stretch, repeat till it stays put, and doesn’t lock up on the studs at the same point the long rod sits on the studs ….When stretching the one piece 3 hole rod, I have to stretch one side at a time …

Pat

Stretching the rods is something I never would have considered!

Yikes on stretching. That hurt my neck.

Pat and Pete just keep doing this stuff. My pocket knife, file and old Dremel just can't keep up.

Stretching side rods. Drilling the center of pilot wheel axles for a more prototypical look. Oy. (A couple of my pilot truck axles started out as galvanized nails from Ace Hardware.)

@harmonyards posted:

One of the best mods we can do to any of these older Pulmor rebuilds, is to mod the scale pilot truck that’s included with these engines …….tonight, I did the axles by turning down the protruding bullet that just looks ugly, then center drilling the axles for a more appropriate look,……tomorrow, I’ll color the wheels of the pilot truck to match what’s supposed to be on the 490,…..maybe somebody can help with some accurate detail info for fun, …..does the 490’s pilot truck get brakes? ….

Pat

Are the wheels just filed or machined down to give the appearance of a wider rim?

@DaveGG posted:

Are the wheels just filed or machined down to give the appearance of a wider rim?

Dave, I face the rim, the hub, & the axle all at once to make everything even. I’m not shaving hardly anything off the rim face. More or less just a clean up,….

Pat

This was some precise, tense drilling!…..unbelievable how deep I had to go to find the inside!…..but, well worth it!!…..beings we’re stepping up the game, we need illuminated class lights!…..makes for a one-of-a-kind model!….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

This was some precise, tense drilling!…..unbelievable how deep I had to go to find the inside!…..but, well worth it!!…..beings we’re stepping up the game, we need illuminated class lights!…..makes for a one-of-a-kind model!….

Pat

I'd love to light the class lights, just didn't want to do all that work.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd love to light the class lights, just didn't want to do all that work.

It was a lot of work, …..a whole lot of clinching going on as I drilled for what seemed an eternity!!…..they’re pretty deep, ….quite a bit of chip clearing to keep the bit from breaking off deep in the hole!!

Pat

Maybe a few tips so I can avoid any potential mistakes.  I'll be interested in the details of how you end up with the whole installation.  Are you going to use two LED's for each side?  I was thinking of drilling the ones on the side through to the inside, then drilling the front just into the side hole.  An LED at the junction and some tiny yellow and green lenses would complete the picture.  Does that sound like what you're planning?  If so, where do you get the lenses?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Maybe a few tips so I can avoid any potential mistakes.  I'll be interested in the details of how you end up with the whole installation.  Are you going to use two LED's for each side?  I was thinking of drilling the ones on the side through to the inside, then drilling the front just into the side hole.  An LED at the junction and some tiny yellow and green lenses would complete the picture.  Does that sound like what you're planning?  If so, where do you get the lenses?

I did the latter, …..just as you described it,…..the lenses are costume jewelry jewels used at nail salons, ….you can buy clear or colored, dirt cheap off the popular shopping sites,…..one pouch has a variety of sizes …….I keep the clear ones here, and my wife dunks them in her colored ink jars for me…..one thing you have to do is run the flat side across a piece of fine paper to knock off the silver backing, or the light won’t shine through….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

This was some precise, tense drilling!…..unbelievable how deep I had to go to find the inside!…..but, well worth it!!…..beings we’re stepping up the game, we need illuminated class lights!…..makes for a one-of-a-kind model!….

Pat

Can't see the crime scene pix....🤣🤣

@harmonyards posted:

I did the latter, …..just as you described it,…..the lenses are costume jewelry jewels used at nail salons, ….you can buy clear or colored, dirt cheap off the popular shopping sites,…..one pouch has a variety of sizes …….I keep the clear ones here, and my wife dunks them in her colored ink jars for me…..one thing you have to do is run the flat side across a piece of fine paper to knock off the silver backing, or the light won’t shine through….

Pat

Cool, that's what I was considering.  I thought about sanding the backing off of some jewels, I guess that might do the trick.  Where did you get yours?  I see a bunch on Amazon.

I’m not sure what’s going on with uploading pictures, …..tell me please if y’all see them on this reply??..

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Cool, that's what I was considering.  I thought about sanding the backing off of some jewels, I guess that might do the trick.  Where did you get yours?  I see a bunch on Amazon.

Yep, mine came from Jeff Beso’s place,…

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Cool, that's what I was considering.  I thought about sanding the backing off of some jewels, I guess that might do the trick.  Where did you get yours?  I see a bunch on Amazon.

For this application best use the ones with the flat back vs the typical rhinestones used in the dummy markers.

Pete

@harmonyards posted:

I’m not sure what’s going on with uploading pictures, …..tell me please if y’all see them on this reply??..

Pat

Pat, yes photos came through on this post. I’ve had trouble with photos too. Great stuff with the LEDs, would love to see the photos . I had to go back and edit one of my posts and add the photos again!!!

@harmonyards posted:

I’m not sure what’s going on with uploading pictures, …..tell me please if y’all see them on this reply??..

Pat

Yep, I see them, they look fantastic!  What size are those and describe exactly how you drilled to leave them a place to sit.

@Norton posted:

For this application best use the ones with the flat back vs the typical rhinestones used in the dummy markers.

Pete

Yep, I figured that from Pat's reply.  Just need to know what size is best for this application.

John, I just got an assortment of clear ones. You get about 100,000 for maybe five bucks. I’ll PM you a link to what I got as I am not sure I can post that here.

Pete

Thanks Pete, I saw a bunch of collections, but a lot of them had all the silly multicolored ones that would be useless for me.

@Norton posted:

John, I just got an assortment of clear ones. You get about 100,000 for maybe five bucks. I’ll PM you a link to what I got as I am not sure I can post that here.

Pete

Actually, I think we need the colored ones for this application, there is a single LED lighting both the yellow side lens and the front green one.

Both sides of the class lights should be the same color!

@harmonyards posted:

Lionel’s early TMCC C&O Hudson ( 6-18043 ) is actually a very sharp model, ….not sure why they designated it a semi-scale, when in fact it’s actually closer to scale then what I’d consider a semi scale locomotive, …….nonetheless, I wanted to take one of these to the next level, and of course, Pittman swap it, and modernize the electronics….

First & foremost, are the side rods, the way the axles look, and the fasteners…..The real 490 has a full complement of roller bearing rods. Lionel did make a decent main rod representing a roller bearing main, but the side rods and hardware are lacking….MTH makes a nice roller bearing type side rod, but it’s too short to use on the Lionel 700 type chassis ….Now, I can not take credit for this crucial step, it was designed, and first implemented by West Albany shops, aka Pete ( Norton ) So I took a set of MTH rods, and employed Pete’s technique the look is amazing!….next, I took the stock side rod bolts, center drilled them on the lathe, then knocked a T8 Torx bit in the precise hole to make a torx bit fitting for tightening,….afterwards, a return trip on the lathe to round off the stock hex flats. The fastener for the main was done similarly, but pocketed and fitted with a 2mm JIS screw for tightening……

And the fun part,…..My original thought was to simply center drill the axles of the locomotive, touch them up with some gray paint, and call it good, …..no way Jose!!…I don’t know what material these axles are made of, but it’s by far the hardest alloy I’ve ever seen employed by a model company …….EVER!!…..every bit I have in my arsenal barely scratched the faces of these axles!….even carbide bits were no match!!…they’d catch a tiny bit, and snap. This was starting to look like an expensive proposition,…..so I ceased the effort, and we went to plan B, ……Out in the big shops  I have my grandad’s railroad tools from the 1920’s-30’s. One of these tools makes small punch outs, I took some really thin brass sheet out there, and his tool still sharp as all get out, punched out these perfect tiny brass rounds, ……perfect for center drilling, and adhering to the Lionel solid Titanium axles ( not sure what they are made of, but we’ll roll with it ) after center drilling, I used 3M’s panel bonder adhesive to affix the new parts, then a swipe of JB quick as a filler for sanding & leveling,…..after a good paint match, we now have a set of drivers that look like the real thing, and rods & hardware far more appropriate & appealing……I’ll update this as the model progresses….

Pat

I did this years ago with semi scale Lionel heavyweight cars. Installed 3 wheel trucks led/red marker lights (from Radio Shack, a blast from the past) there is something satisfying about turning a toy into a train/model.

@Big Jim posted:

Both sides of the class lights should be the same color!

Can you verify this Jim? …..I’m obviously in uncharted waters working on C&O equipment. I just followed what Lionel did with the “dummy jewels” but I’d like to make the locomotive more accurate than the toy, so suggestions welcome, …..if it needs the change, I’ll be happy to oblige ……thought you were an N&W guy, but if C&O is your thing too, please suggest away!!…..

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, I think we need the colored ones for this application, there is a single LED lighting both the yellow side lens and the front green one.

I’m going to wait and see if Big Jim comes up with what’s accurate, …..if they’re supposed to be both one color, I’m going to follow what Jim says is correct,…..obviously, if you do yours, you can do whatever color you like,…..I’ll get you the drill bit size and measure the jewels I used this evening after work,…..I’m at break at the moment,…..sadly, there’s a 55 Chevy DelRay calling my name, so back to the grind…….😔

Pat