Leaving some of Us Behind - Curve Radius Inflation

I'm not sure where the "drama-queen" "nose out of joint" or getting away from the hobby comments are coming from, but I do think that LIONEL is moving away from 031 in favor of 072 and would go to higher radii if they could. 

If you have been in this hobby for any length of time then I believe we all started with 031/042 layouts. It was hard back then to find track with a larger radii. So all engines and cars were limited to 031 and 072 did not really matter at all.

I think it was the true not toy 0-scalers that first started using 072 radii with their 2-rail engines. These 2-rail engines were finely scaled brass engines, that cost a lot, well compared to 3-rail 031 engines. It was a natural transition that MTH seeing the 2-rail engines started making better scaled engines that required greater than 031 radii to run. That movement back then caused Lionel to follow suit. 

Now we see 2-railers buying MTH 2-rail 072 engines.  This trend toward greater scale and larger radii will continue with 031 radii equipment become lost to an earlier age. 

AlanRail posted:

  This trend toward greater scale and larger radii will continue with 031 radii equipment become lost to an earlier age. 

 

 

So those of us who just can't fit 072 curves are out of luck?

palallin posted:

So those of us who just can't fit 072 curves are out of luck?

Actually, the last I checked you guys have ALL the luck.  The o-gauge industry has been catering to small-diameter folks for 70 years or so.  99% of all that has been made will run on diameters less than o-72.  The people that are out of luck are the ones that like realistic trains.  We have mostly been ignored by lionel for all of the past century, but Lionel has thrown us a couple of bones the past few years.

All this matters naught to me as my round the walls "lack of space" linear 027 proto - based layout has tight end return loops that are hidden via scenery so looks don't matter. I'm testing and pushing all my medium road switching/road/short line diesels to negotiate the functional O27 curves and turnouts.

My 2 rail scale proto - based plans involve brass switchers and critters, again small as possible curves where functionally needed and hidden from view for a linear design. I let the available space dictate the curve parameters, and then design the desired operations and motive power and rolling stock meet those parameters.  I'm finding NO difficulty in locating rolling stock and locomotives to satisfy my railroad modeling in these formats.

AlanRail posted:

I'm not sure where the "drama-queen" "nose out of joint" or getting away from the hobby comments are coming from,

but I do think that LIONEL is moving away from 031 in favor of 072 and would go to higher radii if they could. 

This trend toward greater scale and larger radii will continue with 031 radii equipment become lost to an earlier age. 

 

 

1- I can't speak for anyone else, but my comments came from personal experience.  I don't care for the direction the hobby is going, so I got out of it.  Sorry if you don't find that acceptable.

2- It seems that way, with prices to match.

3- Again, part of the reason I got out of it.  I guess it just plain sucks to be anyone who doesn't have a B-52 hangar to build a layout in.  Or they'll have to switch to a smaller scale.  Good thing I kept all my HO stuff...

mlavender480 posted:

3- Again, part of the reason I got out of it.  I guess it just plain sucks to be anyone who doesn't have a B-52 hangar to build a layout in.  Or they'll have to switch to a smaller scale.  Good thing I kept all my HO stuff...

HO stuff?  Hmm... let's see.  Fixed pilots, scale couplers, NRMA standards, reasonable radii.  Sounds like a winner!  I'm jealous.  You should definitely pursue the HO scale..,

Good luck!!!

If you want as close to real as possible then whether you are a 2-rail or 3-rail operator you would completely ignore sectional track and just run flex track. An O-108 or 54" radius curve still isn't even close to replicating the tightest of prototypical curves.

handyandy posted:

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

handyandy posted:

"...027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..."

 

I find it funny that there is so much anti- O27/Traditional sentiment on the O27/Traditional forum. 

Interesting, isn't it?

The interesting part is how handyandy left out the "hi-rail" part of the forum name.

Quoting stuff out of context is an underhanded way to get your point across.

Sorry about that. I guess since Hi Rail is lumped in with Traditional and O27 I just consider it all the same. Not quite full O scale, but still O gauge trains. Meant no disrespect. Just seems odd that people on a forum for O27 are so against O27.

But what can you expect from one of us baby layout guys!   LOL

Andy,

My experience with the OGR forum is that with this sub-forum, "Hi-Rail" includes scale models, not just traditional or semi-scale models. 

Part of the 3RS definition in the first forum post is "The intent in 3-Rail Scale is to continually strive for as much prototype realism as possible within the limitations of time, talent, and available space." Within the first couple of days of the new 3RS sub-forum, I had a post (with pictures) of my scale Weaver Reading Pacific and my scale SGL Reading Pacific (both the only accurate scale models of the Reading Pacifics made to date) deleted as my trains run on an unscenic plywood layout.  The take-away is that the 3RS sub-forum is not just about the trains, but is about the trains AND the layout.

Going back to the original post, the self-centering pilot is the main reason that I purchased the new Lionel ES44AC.  My guess, however, is that this is what caused the bump up to O-54 for this model.

Personally, curve creep on my layout, has been entirely self directed.  When I got back into the hobby 20 years ago, I purchased O-31 track to run my traditional trains.  Over time, I moved to an O-54/O-63 double main, as I had no desire to purchase big steam engines.  Unfortunately, however, I became smittened with a set of scale SGL passenger cars.  Thus, for my layout rebuild, I planned to move towards an O-72/O-80 double main.  While I have purchased the track (but not the new turnouts) I'm thinking about squeezing in an O-80/O-96 double main instead.  As the new layout is a temporary one (moving in 5 - 6 years) it will be minimally sceniced and will not meet the 3RS criteria, so I will continue to post on this sub-forum

Jim

I understand the poster's original point but respectfully it seems like a problem in search of a solution.  At no time in the history of the O gauge hobby has there been available such a widespread choice of scale, semi-scale, and traditionally sized trains, all with technology variations to match the desires of the hobbyist.  Lionel continues to offer an array of products including Lionmaster.  MTH has railking, railking imperial, and premier, all running ps2/PS3.  Even WBB is improving its sounds, offering more detailed choices, and still maintaining a respectable postwar repro line.  Then of course there is LC, LC+, and DCS remote commander, plus DCS, Legacy, and of course conventional (with multiple excellent transformer choices from MTH and Lionel.)  All fun and viable ways to enjoy trains.

One problem, again offered respectfully and not to antagonize, is that too many people in this hobby spend time fixated on catalogs and buying.  This forum reinforces that tendency with a large focus on who will get the newest and shiniest thing in the catalog. P  Sure there is the thrill of the new and finding it, but excessive focus on catalogs and new product is what causes the myopic view of then thinking that traditional hobbyists are being left behind.  I am such a traditional hobbyist, with a 6x8 layout, and I can tell you I am blown away by the choices abvailable today and not at all worried about being left out.  

I think Ray is onto something here. He echoes my sentiments perfectly.

The marketeers of most O gauge producers are preaching to an entirely different choir now than "back in the day" and "curve radius inflation" should come as no surprise.  They are merely responding to the current market.  Despite this you cannot be left behind unless you allow yourself to be.

Pete

My current experience is not typical because I am on my final layout [unfinished] due to age and health issues. It is in a comparatively small space[9x16 attic] but has wide dual mainline curve arcs of 072/084 and 084/096.  A lot of simple running round and round slowly with short trains and minimum to no operation. However I have a Servicing Yard  entered and exited on curved O72/084 Curtis switches and a Ross 4 way located out in the middle, neither of which are always friendly to 8-driver steamers and some stinking diesels. 

But it doesn't matter to me because my Yard is basically static, mainly just for looks at my servicing structures rescued from a couple of large dismantled layouts. When I became old and lame my outlook and attitude [and "druthers"] changed. Although I have wide running curves, I now have no problem with shuttling Mountain type engines into and out of the Yard via the 0-5-0 Switcher.

For many years I worked in a bicycle shop, and I see a lot of similarities with Bicycles and Model Trains. I worked in a shop starting at around 13 all through high school. When I went to college, I got a great sales gig at a higher end Bicycle shop, we stocked Trek, Cannondale, and Specialized, as well as sub brands of Trek such as Gary Fisher and Lemonde. We had all price points on the floor, from 100 Dollars to near 8-9k, I was on the sales floor actually selling the product so it gives me a little perspective on this stuff.

Every year the new catalogs would come out, The first 20 pages of each catalog was always the top end product: Madone 9.9  at around 12-15k (Similar to the one Armstrong was racing at the time). 29'rs  for downhill racing (4-5K), Specialized S Works etc. Very drool worthy if that is what you were into, we'd get guys and gals coming in during the winter to "talk shop" about these bikes, few would put a pre-order in on one, but mostly just drool. The lower priced items were relegated to two or three plain pages in the back of the catalog, or not even mentioned.

Come spring, most of the product we moved off of the floor would be between the prices of 350-700, kids bikes, entry level mountain bikes, comfort bikes for the Towpath trail, a few lower end road bikes or cross bikes. I don't have numbers to back up, just what I remember, but for every bicycle about 2k we sold, we probably sold something like 50-60 of the lower price point items. But if you went off the catalogs, everyone was buying the high end stuff.

Once a year, I could do an employee purchase which allowed be to buy a bicycle from the manufacturer for cost and I remember looking at the price list and being a bit shocked how much markup there was on the lower end bicycles, compared to the higher end.

I can't specifically speak towards the toy train industry other than the little that I've participated in, but my thought is being a similar specialty/luxury market, comparable to bicycles, Lionel, MTH, etc, can't afford to let go of us that are running 027/031, if they are similar, they probably sell more volume Thomas/LC/LC+/RTR stuff than vision line or BTO stuff. I personally am not in the market for the high end gear or trains, that doesn't mean that others aren't. Just like back at the bicycle shop, I bought a nice cross bike with my employee purchase, my good buddy who worked there bought a 5k downhill bike and lived out his car. There is room for everyone I think.

*Edit for a few spelling things I missed the first time around

TM Terry posted:

Isn't the current radius creep associated with the customer desire for fixed pilots on their locomotives to get another step closer to prototypical? Isn't that the reason a longer Lionel SD60 with a swinging pilot can get by on O36, while the shorter SD38 with a fixed pilot requires O54?

The more realistic we want our railroads, to greater the required track radius. 

 

There's a fine line between being overly concerned with realism (i.e. fixed pilots) versus just having the look and fun of running some cool trains.

Hence why I posted this topic in the first place. I don't begrudge those who are focused one the scale details. But, then again, this is why I posted this in the HiRail, 027, Traditional form. No way am I diminishing the desires of the Scale focused operators here. Just brining forth my view of folks like me who are focused on looks, play value and having fun in our way of operating in limited spaces.

Its why I have E-6's and a rather large Berkshire running on my layout. Some day I hope to have a UP SD70ace (S.P. Heritage unit on my railroad.

In a way its my take on brining forth my wishes for future product. Someone mentioned this as a "problem in search of a solution." Isn't that the way most products get to market in the first place?

MTH, Atlas, Williams, and Lionel - THIS is for you Folks - Don't forget this  middle ground segment. Cheers for RailKing, Legacy, TMCC and conventional operators limited in space but high on Expectations for Product for our operations.

I for one am  not enamored with LionChief (+) as its a non-compatible system versus Legacy/TMCC. Should have been a gateway with upward compatibility. (In my opinion.) Too bad you can't effectively do MU's of locomotives in that system. Frustrating to me. (And Yes, I get the whole discussion, with being able to run LC(+) on the same rails as Legacy or DCS. Just missing a link between the systems.

Gentlemen,

    Myself I could care less about realism, 85% of my layout is Tin Plate, however talking space & cost of Trains & Layouts, now you have my engineering attention.  GreenRail has a point on both of these, however as PATKELLY advises there is really no problem finding Trains right now that eliminate both as problems, the cost is starting to rise again however.   If however all the major manufacturers in our hobby push toward 072 with everything new, in the future things could change.  IMO I do not think this will happen, at least till I am long gone from this earth.  

PCRR/Dave

Dave, I agree with you, I am not overly concerned with realism.  I tell you the truth, I marvel at the layouts that really look real, I wish I could do that.  I like running my trains, so I really don't spend endless hours on scenery.  I leave that to those who obviously have that gift.  I am fortunate that I can run most any size locomotive on my layout.  Granted, I could reduce the curves on my outside loop and have more curves and scenery, but I like running the big locos.  Really, it's a matter of what makes a person happy.  I like running big locomotives, like a DD40 or a Gas Turbine and have marginal scenery. 

Overall, Enjoying our Trains is the goal of all of us. The increased realistic look and the killer electronics are what got me back into the Hobby after 20 years.

Let's enjoy these as long as we can. The Good Lord, gave us only so much time on this planet. Maybe He has a full scale Big Boy or GG1 capable of running on 027 track waiting for us!

jd-train posted:

handyandy posted:

Martin H posted:

mlavender480 posted:

handyandy posted:

"...027 stuff for the little baby layout guys..."

 

I find it funny that there is so much anti- O27/Traditional sentiment on the O27/Traditional forum. 

Interesting, isn't it?

The interesting part is how handyandy left out the "hi-rail" part of the forum name.

Quoting stuff out of context is an underhanded way to get your point across.

Sorry about that. I guess since Hi Rail is lumped in with Traditional and O27 I just consider it all the same. Not quite full O scale, but still O gauge trains. Meant no disrespect. Just seems odd that people on a forum for O27 are so against O27.

But what can you expect from one of us baby layout guys!   LOL

Andy,

My experience with the OGR forum is that with this sub-forum, "Hi-Rail" includes scale models, not just traditional or semi-scale models. 

Part of the 3RS definition in the first forum post is "The intent in 3-Rail Scale is to continually strive for as much prototype realism as possible within the limitations of time, talent, and available space." Within the first couple of days of the new 3RS sub-forum, I had a post (with pictures) of my scale Weaver Reading Pacific and my scale SGL Reading Pacific (both the only accurate scale models of the Reading Pacifics made to date) deleted as my trains run on an unscenic plywood layout.  The take-away is that the 3RS sub-forum is not just about the trains, but is about the trains AND the layout.

Going back to the original post, the self-centering pilot is the main reason that I purchased the new Lionel ES44AC.  My guess, however, is that this is what caused the bump up to O-54 for this model.

Personally, curve creep on my layout, has been entirely self directed.  When I got back into the hobby 20 years ago, I purchased O-31 track to run my traditional trains.  Over time, I moved to an O-54/O-63 double main, as I had no desire to purchase big steam engines.  Unfortunately, however, I became smittened with a set of scale SGL passenger cars.  Thus, for my layout rebuild, I planned to move towards an O-72/O-80 double main.  While I have purchased the track (but not the new turnouts) I'm thinking about squeezing in an O-80/O-96 double main instead.  As the new layout is a temporary one (moving in 5 - 6 years) it will be minimally sceniced and will not meet the 3RS criteria, so I will continue to post on this sub-forum

Jim

Thanks for the update. The definition of "Hi-Rail" that I have known for years has been regular ol' Traditional sized O-gauge trains running on standard tubular track in a realistically detailed layout. Guess I need to update the memory banks.  Thanks.

A few observations. Everyone has there opinions not everyone has room for the big sweeping curves some do. layouts are a big investment. wood scenery track whichever you choose on. some are in love with atlas some love realtrax it's all relavant to the hobbiest. Me I like fastrack  I can give you 100 reasons why and a only a few reason I don't. but I still keep buying because I have a lot of track that would have to be replaced if I switched. well that same mentality goes into engines yea I started my layout about a year ago but my older ones have been years in the making point is some people have layouts from a different time when 031 was standard and don't want to rebuild there lifes work to fit an new engine that requires 072. so yes they would be left behind. but the main focal point of this thread is really Lionels latest move towards 072. but really it's a mute point lionel has engines that fit the bill with there lionmaster line. Bottom line is your not going to get vision line details in a 031 curve. rework the layout to fit or be happy with what you can get. that's what I do . heck I like watching the 100+ car trains running around but I can't do that I think 13 is my max point is this is a hobby enjoy it . heck theres 3 rails remember not scale !!

Let's not confuse detail with size. There are many smaller engines that can run on every layout and that would sell well in scale versions (like F3s). The point is that by focusing so much on big engines, Lionel may be needlessly cutting out many people who would pay for scale engines but don't have the layouts for the big engines.  

I go back to one of my original comments. I  have a K-Line Berkshire (Lima Demonstrator No. 1), which was designed to run on 031 curves.

Lionel recently showed what is essentially the same locomotive in their 2013 Signature Edition Catalog, and it requires 054 curves. My question is why?

Its basically the same locomotive and design. I was able to find a K-Line version from 2005. It runs just fine on 036 curves.

Its an example of which I speak here. Its a big beautiful Steamer, that works great. But due to whatever changes made to the locomotive over time, it is no longer available in  a version that would run on my layout.

Hence my reason in the first place for this thread.

GREENRAIL posted:

I go back to one of my original comments. I  have a K-Line Berkshire (Lima Demonstrator No. 1), which was designed to run on 031 curves.

Lionel recently showed what is essentially the same locomotive in their 2013 Signature Edition Catalog, and it requires 054 curves. My question is why?

Its basically the same locomotive and design. I was able to find a K-Line version from 2005. It runs just fine on 036 curves.

Its an example of which I speak here. Its a big beautiful Steamer, that works great. But due to whatever changes made to the locomotive over time, it is no longer available in  a version that would run on my layout.

Hence my reason in the first place for this thread.

Not to be snarky, but have you contacted Lionel?  They're really the only ones who can answer your question.

Bob Delbridge posted:

GREENRAIL posted:

I go back to one of my original comments. I  have a K-Line Berkshire (Lima Demonstrator No. 1), which was designed to run on 031 curves.

Lionel recently showed what is essentially the same locomotive in their 2013 Signature Edition Catalog, and it requires 054 curves. My question is why?

Its basically the same locomotive and design. I was able to find a K-Line version from 2005. It runs just fine on 036 curves.

Its an example of which I speak here. Its a big beautiful Steamer, that works great. But due to whatever changes made to the locomotive over time, it is no longer available in  a version that would run on my layout.

Hence my reason in the first place for this thread.

Not to be snarky, but have you contacted Lionel?  They're really the only ones who can answer your question.

No, I have not. I have no need to since I acquired the K-Line version. I really don't want to belabor my observations here. Just stating my view that upward radius creep is keeping people like me out of the market for some products. Just reinforcing my feeling that it would be nice to have that close to scale, equipment that operates in my environment.