Looking at HO...Pros and Cons?

Thanks, good to know. I was just observing as you have been, from reading and youtube videos it seemed like MTH was turning out pretty nice stuff in HO. Good luck, if you do finally get something MTH to purchase. I have had good luck with MTH O gauge products.

Daylight, to add on to what Laming said I believe most if not all of the HO rolling stock produced today come with metal wheels and axles. 

The axles are important too because I read on another forum that there is a lot less friction with a metal axle turning against a plastic truck than plastic turning axle against a plastic truck. So not only do the metal wheels not attract any dirt but they roll better too. 

Hi

Here is my two cents. I started out in O scale and did start an HO collections. Both have have advantages and disadvantages as state by fellow members. Just to give you an idea I had Blue Box Anthean engines. Yes HO are easy to work on and you can purchase them for on the cheap and upgrading them is very simple. Due to space limitations I had to sell my HO collection. I did keep a very limited number of pcs. I can say one thing about both scales is that the modern stuff is way cool and run great. Most of my stuff was from the 70's(if not earlier) and was a real pain to run both scales. Example on the HO scale I could not get my Blue Box engines to run correctly on Atlas Ho track. I place a modern European engine on the HO track and it took off like a bat out of hell with no problems anywhere on the track. I also scaled down my O collection as well. Too each there own and enjoin running your trains.

I like both of them:

rtr12 posted:

...... My brother-in-law is strictly HO and he thinks Athern Genesis is the cat's meow. I can't disagree it is very nice stuff, but I am not sure he thinks much of the MTH line? ......

He has been buying HO for probably close to 50 years though and probably fairly set in his ways as we all get when we get older.

I'm also just getting back into HO .... and am at the engine acquiring stage.

Athearn Genesis certainly has a reputation of some of the most nicely detailed equipment right out of the box.

However, *some* folks say that their drivetrains are "hit and miss" ..... not the silky-smooth operation such as you are assured with from Atlas HO. This is coming from hard core modelers, who generally attempt mechanical improvements on everything they buy. So, I don't know how to take that.

We do get set in our ways, but I've come to embrace the improvements in today's HO equipment, and am open to manufacturers other than the Atlas and Athearn of my earlier modeling days. Such as ... I'm eager to see/hear a diesel engine running under BLI's Rolling Thunder system.

There is some disdain for Mike Wolf in the HO community. Maybe that colors your brother-in-law's opinion? (I won't buy from Wolf)

All scales are fun!

The negative about MTH (as well as other articulated not brass made) may be that the back set of drivers are allowed to rotate (instead of fixed to the boiler as the prototype) so they can negotiate sharper curves. 

Personally, I prefer buying the brass models as, when compared to new articulated engine prices, and accounting for inflation for when they were made (usually 1960's to 1990's), they are very cost effective and, for those that like DCC, they can be installed in the brass engine.

Plus, you can't beat the detail of brass compared to cast plastic/metal.

EBT Jim posted:

rtr12 posted:

...... My brother-in-law is strictly HO and he thinks Athern Genesis is the cat's meow. I can't disagree it is very nice stuff, but I am not sure he thinks much of the MTH line? ......

He has been buying HO for probably close to 50 years though and probably fairly set in his ways as we all get when we get older.

I'm also just getting back into HO .... and am at the engine acquiring stage.

Athearn Genesis certainly has a reputation of some of the most nicely detailed equipment right out of the box.

However, *some* folks say that their drivetrains are "hit and miss" ..... not the silky-smooth operation such as you are assured with from Atlas HO. This is coming from hard core modelers, who generally attempt mechanical improvements on everything they buy. So, I don't know how to take that.

We do get set in our ways, but I've come to embrace the improvements in today's HO equipment, and am open to manufacturers other than the Atlas and Athearn of my earlier modeling days. Such as ... I'm eager to see/hear a diesel engine running under BLI's Rolling Thunder system.

There is some disdain for Mike Wolf in the HO community. Maybe that colors your brother-in-law's opinion? (I won't buy from Wolf)

All scales are fun!

I should have added that he does not run anything, it's for display only so I don't think the drivetrains are a concern for him. When I got back in the O gauge hobby I suggested he start building a layout so he could run some of his trains and he looked at me like I was completely crazy (instead of just partially ).

I also like all the new technologies, it's what got me back in the hobby. I look forward to new improvements and features being implemented. There was a recent post here about BLI creating an interface board for O gauge that would work with the Rolling Thunder System, that sounds very interesting. I know there have been some amazing improvements in all scales from 50 years ago when I was last in the hobby as a kid. I am still overwhelmed by what is available to us today. My daughter had a Lionel train set in the early '80s, but I am not counting that as being back in the hobby as it didn't last long, she tired of it after a year or so. The train had some problems as well.

Personally, I don't understand the dislike for Mike Wolf? I've never met him, but he certainly seems like a very enthusiastic train guy and from what I have read had done a lot for O gauge to get us where we are today. I like all the O gauge manufacturers about equally, no complaints with any of them and I don't prefer one brand over another. I have a lot of very nice MTH stuff, most of my fleet in fact and mostly PS3. I've had very little trouble with any of it. The main reason for so much MTH is that since I got back in the hobby a few years ago, they have offered far more items in my chosen road name and price range. In fact, so many that I can't keep up. I still purchase items from all the other manufacturers when they make them available and in my field of wanted items. 

Ted Sowirka posted:

I like working on the locos.  If I thought I could do that successfully in HO scale, I would be a brain surgeon!  The parts availability for Lionel postwar and MPC is another boon, but not as much with the more recent scale offerings.

I agree with the previous poster about the diesels: two small motors and swinging pilots bug me.  But I'm a steam guy.  Regarding performance, I would put a 3rd Rail loco, or even one of the new Legacy locos against its HO-scale counterpart any time.  The lack of sprung drivers is noticeable in the larger scales when a long-wheelbase loco "thumps" over uneven trackwork, but for me it's not a deal-breaker.

The #1 difference I see between HO and O is the focus.  In O scale, the focus is on the trains themselves; you can get away with only modeling the environment adjacent to the right-of-way.  Because of limitations with arm's reach, wide radius layouts are often built in the "open doughnut" configuration, on modules only 3' deep.  Realistic grades require 50 feet of run.  In HO scale it seems more important to have varied terrain and a fully landscaped environment.  The scope is larger and just different.

If I were going to give up O scale, I would look hard at American Models' S-scale offerings.  I started in O, and there's never been as much available in S.  But in retrospect, it seems like the perfect size. My $.02.

S scale does seem like a very workable compromise.

Was S scale more popular in decades past?

Matt01 posted:

Ted Sowirka posted:

 

If I were going to give up O scale, I would look hard at American Models' S-scale offerings.  I started in O, and there's never been as much available in S.  But in retrospect, it seems like the perfect size. My $.02.

S scale does seem like a very workable compromise.

Was S scale more popular in decades past?

Unfortunately, S Scale has never had the popularity of either O, HO or N scale, although things were improving in the 1990's-early 2000's, until the main Chinese manufacturer fired its small customers in favor of the big ones.

It's also going through a rough patch right now as expectations are higher today and product availability is lower than they were 30 years ago when I got in.  Some of it is the model railroad market in general, some is self-inflicted.

Only American Models has been the constant factor. With MTH and Lionel having a competition to see who can come out with the least amount of product in the most amount of time, most folks today don't have the patience to wait 2-3 years for a cataloged product to eventually arrive when HO, O and N are so plentiful.

Rusty

samparfitt posted:

The negative about MTH (as well as other articulated not brass made) may be that the back set of drivers are allowed to rotate (instead of fixed to the boiler as the prototype) so they can negotiate sharper curves. 

Personally, I prefer buying the brass models as, when compared to new articulated engine prices, and accounting for inflation for when they were made (usually 1960's to 1990's), they are very cost effective and, for those that like DCC, they can be installed in the brass engine.

Plus, you can't beat the detail of brass compared to cast plastic/metal.

 

 

Beautiful; who is the manufacture

The NP A-4 4-8-4 was imported by Oriental Limited in 1983 and the Allegheny 2-6-6-6 by Key in 1981.

Sam

After painting:

Not currently having a layout, I myself am undecided between HO and O gauge when I finally build another one (whenever that may be).  I have WAY more HO than O, but I'm not overly thrilled about the idea of attempting realistic scenery and to me modern HO just doesn't look "right" in a toy-layout setting...

The amount of product of HO is huge.The difference in quality is extremely huge. I grew up with both Lionel and Marklin HO. I've been in the hobby almost 50 years and I've seen it all. IF you want to model in HO and want the ultimate in overall reliability and enjoyment,I would suggest looking at Marklin HO. IMHO,The quality is unsurpassed by any make,the system is bulletproof and the selection of models is simply mind boggling. Marklin makes several beautiful US models (Big Boys,Alco PA's,F7's) also MTH makes quite a few US prototypes now in HO for the Marklin system. I still have my Dad's Marklin HO trains that he bought on trips to Germany and the east coast in the 50's and 60's. They all still run like new and have been completely trouble free. Look at some of the videos on Youtube and see for yourself. 

Boomer wrote:

"The amount of product of HO is huge"...........correct 

"The difference in quality is extremely huge".............I totally disagree. I just began to dabble in HO and have found high quality and highly detailed in both rolling stock and motive units. I operate on HO railroads and don't see any problems that I don't see on O gauge layouts. My HO rolling stock averages $10-$25 per car, and are always metal wheels, Kadee compatible couplers and very nice detailed.

I have Weaver O gauge cars ($25each) that will not uncouple. I have modern Lionel Die cast ore cars ($50 each) that will not stay coupled. So issues are there.

When people mention quality differences I think back to HO that was offered back in the 1960's-1990's. Back then , yes, there was some pretty junkie stuff out there. Today brings some quality lines across the board.

i just wanted to mention the quality issue so the OP isn't misled.

Bluegill1 posted:

Boomer wrote:

"The amount of product of HO is huge"...........correct 

"The difference in quality is extremely huge".............I totally disagree. I just began to dabble in HO and have found high quality and highly detailed in both rolling stock and motive units. I operate on HO railroads and don't see any problems that I don't see on O gauge layouts. My HO rolling stock averages $10-$25 per car, and are always metal wheels, Kadee compatible couplers and very nice detailed.

I have Weaver O gauge cars ($25each) that will not uncouple. I have modern Lionel Die cast ore cars ($50 each) that will not stay coupled. So issues are there.

When people mention quality differences I think back to HO that was offered back in the 1960's-1990's. Back then , yes, there was some pretty junkie stuff out there. Today brings some quality lines across the board.

i just wanted to mention the quality issue so the OP isn't misled.

I meant the difference in Quality within HO is huge - From the cheap "throw away" Lifelike and Bachmann sets to Kato,Athearn-Genesis,Marklin,Roco,BLI at the top end.

The best gauge is the gauge you are having the most fun with.

this is a hobby remember.

Boomer posted:

Bluegill1 posted:

 

When people mention quality differences I think back to HO that was offered back in the 1960's-1990's. Back then , yes, there was some pretty junkie stuff out there. Today brings some quality lines across the board.

i just wanted to mention the quality issue so the OP isn't misled.

I meant the difference in Quality within HO is huge - From the cheap "throw away" Lifelike and Bachmann sets to Kato,Athearn-Genesis,Marklin,Roco,BLI at the top end.

Even in ye olden days of the 60's to the 90's, you couldn't go wrong with Athearn, Bowser, Atlas HO and Rivarrossi(although their 3-pole motors tended to "cog" at low speeds,) all were pretty bullet-proof.  Mantua/Tyco varied from product to product, but their steam performed better than their diesels once broken in.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Boomer posted:

Bluegill1 posted:

 

When people mention quality differences I think back to HO that was offered back in the 1960's-1990's. Back then , yes, there was some pretty junkie stuff out there. Today brings some quality lines across the board.

i just wanted to mention the quality issue so the OP isn't misled.

I meant the difference in Quality within HO is huge - From the cheap "throw away" Lifelike and Bachmann sets to Kato,Athearn-Genesis,Marklin,Roco,BLI at the top end.

Even in ye olden days of the 60's to the 90's, you couldn't go wrong with Athearn, Bowser, Atlas HO and Rivarrossi(although their 3-pole motors tended to "cog" at low speeds,) all were pretty bullet-proof.  Mantua/Tyco varied from product to product, but their steam performed better than their diesels once broken in.

Rusty

The Mantua/Tyco steam engines were great runners for the time. I still have several and they still hold their own. Fleischmann offered good running American prototype HO trains back in the late 50's early 60's.Lastly, Marx HO diesels - Although somewhat noisy to today's standards,had smooth running 8 wheel drive diesels. The Marx HO hudson - not so good.

I've been building an O scale layout for just over a year - I got into it cause I liked the heft of O equipment.  But availability and modeling opportunity has proven limited.  I've learned a lot.

However, I'm strongly considering a switch to HO.  There just isn't the depth of scenic modelling or the available rolling stock in O to do what I want to do at a price point I'm comfortable investing.  I'm only so deep into the investment that I feel I can start over without to much of a hit.  

Boomer posted:

The amount of product of HO is huge.The difference in quality is extremely huge. I grew up with both Lionel and Marklin HO. I've been in the hobby almost 50 years and I've seen it all. IF you want to model in HO and want the ultimate in overall reliability and enjoyment,I would suggest looking at Marklin HO. IMHO,The quality is unsurpassed by any make,the system is bulletproof and the selection of models is simply mind boggling. Marklin makes several beautiful US models (Big Boys,Alco PA's,F7's) also MTH makes quite a few US prototypes now in HO for the Marklin system. I still have my Dad's Marklin HO trains that he bought on trips to Germany and the east coast in the 50's and 60's. They all still run like new and have been completely trouble free. Look at some of the videos on Youtube and see for yourself. 

Boomer, I agree with you regarding the Marklin stuff. My marklin collection is pretty much USA prototype, so my spending is somewhat limited (thank goodness.)  I was happy to hear that MTH was going to produce 3 rail HO.  I bought the UP Challenger and it ran great and great detail! Over the years of modeling, I had become disenchanted with MTH for the sole reason of their delivery schedule.  After the HO Challenger, MTH offered the Allegheny.  I ordered the 3 rail 1601 because my son and I had gone to the Henry Ford museum and the 1601 is parked in side. After 2 shipping delays from MTH (not unusual for them), they finally announced that the Allegheny would be shipped.  It was and I keep checking with my dealer and other sources for the 3 rail arrival.  After about 3 months, MTH announced that they had cancelled the 3 rail version. I . . . was . . . not . . . happy!! I know no longer order ANYTHING from MTH. If a dealer has an item in stock or I find it on eBay, I'll buy it.  I was really impressed with the HO Challenger and had planned on purchasing other MTH HO, but now, no more pre-orders.

Steve