Blackwater Canyon Line - March 20, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

Thank you, Mike!

Yes, the 'corners' made on the inside of the curved street and the layout edge make for difficult spots to put in buildings.  Of course I could scratch build or kit bash triangular buildings or half buildings, but I don't like the idea.  I think the playground and flagpole look better on the left across from the church than on the right.  I tried them on the right, but didn't like it.  Since I don't have room to have on street parking, a place for parking a few of my excess of cars and trucks seem a good idea.

You are right about there not being much room for houses in the last photograph.  Here is an overhead shot to prove your point. 

I have not known what I would do with that area and just left it while concentrating on other things.  Up until now, I have been parking cars and trucks in the cubby holes under the upper level.  Reconfiguring the track from a twice around over and under to the upper and lower loops shows how I don't need the upper level roadbed to be as wide as I did before.  I could gain about 2 inches in depth by removing a few supports and narrowing the roadbed.  Time will tell if I think it is worth it.  I'm not particularly attached to any of the houses or the Plasticville church, so I may do something totally different.  In the meantime, it is a place to store buildings instead of automobiles. 

Mark, sounds like sawsall time.  You could build on the upper or lower level, or build 2 to 3 inches off the deck to reduce vertical wall height.

Thank you, Jeff!  Yes, the sawsall certainly could come into play.  I do like your idea of building the area up a couple of inches from track level.  Certainly fitting for here in Western Pennsylvania and West Virginia!  The brick embossed roller just came in the mail today, so I have everything I need to start paving brick streets.    I'm thinking of trying some clay on a scrap board first to get the feel for it and see how my painting of the bricks works out.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jeff!  Yes, the sawsall certainly could come into play.  I do like your idea of building the area up a couple of inches from track level.  Certainly fitting for here in Western Pennsylvania and West Virginia!  The brick embossed roller just came in the mail today, so I have everything I need to start paving brick streets.    I'm thinking of trying some clay on a scrap board first to get the feel for it and see how my painting of the bricks works out.

Mark, just remember roll to about 2mm thickness. If you want to remove it roll it out on a plastic cutting mat and let dry for 12 to 24 hours. Slower drying yields less stress  which makes for a flatter casting. You may need to wet your roller to prevent / minimuze sticking. You can also moisten the surface as it dries to even out the drying stress. If you put it on plywood, it will want to really stick down. Bonus is it will reduce the tendency to surface cup.

Thank you for the tips, Jeff!  I will certainly be following all your suggestions as I start making the streets.  I hope mine end up looking as good as yours. 

I took a little side project yesterday and today since I brought up where to put the houses that don't fit in my town.  I removed the supports and plywood/Homasote roadbed that were abandoned on the other side of the layout when I rearranged the track a couple years ago.  Here are a couple photographs of the area now.  That allows a space of 10 inches from the lower tracks and the support for the upper level.

The diagonal lines on the lower particle board show where I was considering installing a siding early on.  Now I don't recall why I didn't. 

I plopped down a few sections of 1-inch Styrofoam to raise the buildings a couple of inches.  They can sit there for the time being.  I have more important things to do on the town; streets, etc.

Well Mark look at it.thia way, all this talk about your buildings got your mind thinking of more projects! I am sure when your don't with the streets you will have a great idea about the houses!

I'll be watching as I know there is always something to learn!

Mark, amazing how extra space appears when you put some thought into it. It took me awhile to figure out where this section was in your layout. Consider raising the buildings a couple more inches. I think the 'eye' will see a shorter back wall more appealing than a low front wall. Hard to tell without being there.  I've been working slowly on my background buildings. I am going to do the same thing, trying to minimize the 10 inch height difference between the town and the mainline track.   

Thank you, Mike, Jeff!

Mike, yes the streets will come first.  The houses can come later.  In fact, I may find some other buildings I want to put there instead.  I have a scratch build in mind, but need to work out if I have room for it anywhere on the layout. 

Jeff, Yes isn't that the way even with someone's layout you are familiar with.  Recall a few months ago I asked you for some help orienting where you were putting in structures on your layout.  I scrounged up some boxes to raise the buildings.  The blue boxes are too high I think, but they give me the idea.  I think I like the height of the church on the left. 

A forum member contacted me via email with a suggestion for the zig zag switches for the yard access track in the foreground of the above photograph.  The suggestion would straighten the connection to the mainline which is the next track back.  I just need to buy one or possibly two switches.  The existing switches are 042 which I had on hand at the time.  As Mike said, another project to put on the list. 

Mark, i would like to see a dwg of the suggestion. I do not see enough room to do what I imagine is suggested based on the last scarm dwg. I suppose 2 curved switches would work, but not sure that gains you much. Ross' are what 072/054?  I agree the blue boxes are too high - I am thinking 2/3 lower 1/3 upper.  Remember the golden ratio where there are eye pleasing proportions?

This is what I am thinking as an example, although in my case it is 1/3 lower and 2/3 higher although I may raise this more or stagger the heights.  You can see the trolley poles in the upper section. Coming into the photo I will have the elevated trestles to provide service to the engine house further right. To the eye, the elevated trolley will run past the upper windows of the background buildings. If they will fit, I have several unbuilt Downtown Deco buildings which would go well at street level under the elevated track.   A Korber apartment building will go on the upper level.  These two structures are the Korber General Light & Power Office Building cut in half. I always thought it was too thin to be an office building, but as a background building great. Funny the apartment building is the same casting with the corbel section cut off, but with some adds.  Rustoleum primer does not like to stick to this resin. Krylon seems OK.   

No curved switch recommended.   I am the one who emailed Mark the suggestion.   It would likely require some cutting of a "standard" turnout, and the curve leading in from the left, but worth the effort IMHO.   

The 3 - 4 ties and straight section of track leading into the points of the new RH switch will need to be cut off with Dremel tool.  I have modified Ross switches like this several times both curved and straight switches, leave somewhere around a 1/4" inch of straight rail beyond the "Points" or even one full Wooden Tie, like 3/8 - 1/2 inch, lop off the rest. 

Personally, I don't rely on track planning software to do final fitting and track cutting, but before removing anything, I start laying track over the top of what's already there, and I mark the track with masking tape to figure out the optimal places to cut it.   Looks like maybe that's a #4 LH switch on the upper track leading to where the RS Diesel is parked.  I'd see if another #4 or similar LH switch could replace the 042 LH then work your way to the curve.

Ok did not see that, even though I was thinking curved switches in both places. This is what the last plan was. As I also do, things change during the build.  That should be a Ross #4 so there should not be a curve issue mating up with the modified switch.

Thank you, Jeff, Chris!

I don’t have time to pull up the latest Scar drawing that I revised from the one you have, Jeff.  As I told Chris’s, the two 042 switches that make the zig zag Chris cited were an afterthought by me since I had them on hand.  I thought they could make a runaround connection for the yard.  I updated the drawing, but guess I never posted it.  Short cars and the F3’s and RS3’s make it through fine, but the SD9 and Decapod certainly do not.

I didn’t draw out Chris’ suggestion, but made a tracing of an 054 switch, flipped it over and seated it right on the curve in question and pointed towards the switch on the mainline .  Crude, but I think it will work.  I would then be able to run anything I have except the passenger cars, which I wouldn’t be running them from the yard anyway.

Thank you both for the analysis.  I’ll post a capture once I can work out the drawing.

Jeff, Chris, here we go with a crude update on the drawing.  The first screenshot is roughly how the layout is build as of now.

Here is a crude version of what Chris' suggestion could be.  If I replace the 042 LH switch with an 072 RH switch, it should work out.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Jeff, Chris, here we go with a crude update on the drawing.  The first screenshot is roughly how the layout is build as of now.

Here is a crude version of what Chris' suggestion could be.  If I replace the 042 LH switch with an 072 RH switch, it should work out.

Eliminated the S curve. Looks much better Mark.

Actually eliminates 2......

Bob

Hi Mark I am with Bob the second one looks so much better! It's nice that Chris brought this idea to you!

Better than the S.  However the location of the switch on the left would provide space for scenery or an industry. 

Jeff, are you saying to eliminate the switch on the left, and thus make it like the version you shared a few days ago?  If so, you are right.  As it is, I have seldom used that zig zag connection, so maybe less is more.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Jeff, are you saying to eliminate the switch on the left, and thus make it like the version you shared a few days ago?  If so, you are right.  As it is, I have seldom used that zig zag connection, so maybe less is more.

That's a much cleaner look Mark.

Mark, unless I am missing something, if you eliminate the pair of switches, then you don't have a "run around" track to service the "Facing Point" siding for that industry ?    Maybe you have "run around" capability somewhere else nearby that I can't see.   

Thank you for the replies, Dave, Chris.

Dave, it is cleaner and allows for industry on both sides of the track.  A coal dealer, perhaps.

Chris, I was looking at the layout last evening pondering exactly what you asked.  The only way would be setup to push a car in and pull it out.  However, it would be awkward at best.  The run around would let me pull a car in and run around to push it back into the siding.  I'm going to not change anything right now and do some switching to the imaginary industry which I actually haven't done yet.  Yes, the track has probably been in this configuration for 2 years, and I haven't done anything except use it to hold cars.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you for the replies, Dave, Chris.

Dave, it is cleaner and allows for industry on both sides of the track.  A coal dealer, perhaps.

Chris, I was looking at the layout last evening pondering exactly what you asked.  The only way would be setup to push a car in and pull it out.  However, it would be awkward at best.  The run around would let me pull a car in and run around to push it back into the siding.  I'm going to not change anything right now and do some switching to the imaginary industry which I actually haven't done yet.  Yes, the track has probably been in this configuration for 2 years, and I haven't done anything except use it to hold cars.

Good idea it's better to try things out and see how you like it before you start changing things out.

Mark, Dave and all commentors;

Mark's layout is pretty tight so we did not see a good way to do a reasonable run around. The engine would have to be either pulling or pushing depending on the spur being used. There is ability to do a run around using one of the three loop tracks.  It might be possible to add another switch pair on the far south end of the west track pair. Not sure there is enough linear space for the switch pair and provide enough space for the engine and car for the run around operation.

Mark, as far as I can tell when you laid the track you moved the location of the left-left pair of switches up to the "north" end with one switch between two others. You should be able to move that pair back to the original plan on the "west" side. I presumed you had a reason for the relocation. I also did not think you made a 4th loop with this inner portion due to the need for another lift out. 

Mark and the "Committee" -  Here's an idea.   Forget adding the 2 switches and taking up valuable real estate.   

Consider extending that stub siding that shows a "future industry" box under it and add a single LH switch on the dark green line on what looks like the entrance to the penninsula.   It effectively becomes a siding rather than a spur, really doesn't take up any valuable space as the switch I am proposing you add will be on the lower level under the tracks above and across from the rectangle marked "Station"

Two potential advantages, (1) no more track added the area you want to add one or two industries, and (2), the industry or two can be switched from either end eliminating the need for a Run Around.   It's kind a sorta like adding a run around in that it's now a siding.

Depending on what the business/industry is, you could stage up 2-3 empties and move them through filling the cars, with whatever the commodity is.   

Thank you, Mike, Jeff, Chris!

Jeff, you have a good memory.  Perhaps better than mine, because I do not know why I relocated the switch pair.  I do remember deciding I didn't want a third lift up, though it still could be done.  When I wrote I had been looking at the switch pair, I was thinking of what it would take to do another switch pair.  You are right, space is so tight, it would eat up the rest of the straight double track even if I shortened the switches all to the points.

Chris, it's funny you mention extending the track under the station and connecting to the lower main line.  I actually had a switch over there at one time, but it was for a spur that angled into a different area.

I am going to take a video of the areas in question which should make things easier to understand.

Here's a video showing the track as it is now on the layout and a brief description of what I think Jeff and Chris are referring to.  Anyone please comment, not just Jeff and Chris. 

Hi Mark I really like the idea of tieing it into the far track under the station. But I also want you to know that if you wanted to put another scratch built bridge going back to the end of the yard that the actuator is definitely powerful enough. I use mine to lift 3 bridges at one time.

@mike g. posted:

Hi Mark I really like the idea of tying it into the far track under the station. But I also want you to know that if you wanted to put another scratch built bridge going back to the end of the yard that the actuator is definitely powerful enough. I use mine to lift 3 bridges at one time.

Thank you, Mike!  I was thinking that very thing that the actuator could handle it and I could just use a crossarm from the other bridge to lift the third bridge.  It certainly would work, and without a lot of trouble.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Mike!  I was thinking that very thing that the actuator could handle it and I could just use a crossarm from the other bridge to lift the third bridge.  It certainly would work, and without a lot of trouble.

That's what I did, made a 1/2" x 1/2" smooth sanded wood arm. It twist very little and by the time the main bridge is getting close the other bridge should be down or you  can make it so it is.

Mark,  Great job doing the video, it was very helpful and great to hear your voice !    Oh the disconnected world we live in.   

I'd probably double stack crossovers on the straight, leave enough room for 1 freight car so you can run around.   It's tight over there on the main where you had a switch at one time, plus it's right up against the lift bridge.   Plus if you provide the run around in the "yard" area, you don't have to foul the main to switch cars, do facing point moves etc.   

Several times I was shocked after making a CAD layout drawing change to an area on the plan that looked like there's room to do something, and then I would go down to the layout, and start trying to make what I had drawn work, and it was like where did all the room go ?  "Is my drawing wrong ?,"   "How could this have seemed do-able on the RR track software ????"   

Great work, Mark and everyone!

Peter

Thank you, Mike, Chris, Peter!

Mike, it would be easy to put in another simple bridge but at the other end, I would have to either put in another switch or connect to the existing front yard track which would mean to use that run around, I would have to clear that yard track of any cars.  Another switch could be put in, but I'm thinking I like the second crossover near the existing one better.

Chris, as I mentioned, I'm leaning towards double stack crossovers on the straight.  I have the Caboose Industries manual throws on all the switches that are easy to reach, so I would just need the the switches and two more throws.  I'm not going to buy anything yet however.  I want to get at the brick streets project.

You are right about how the layout looks smaller than it does on the drawing.  I thought I had room for more or larger buildings, but it isn't so.  It can be disappointing and frustrating at times, but I am glad for what I do have.

Thank you for all the comments, suggestions, and critiques everyone!!

I have made two sections of brick street from the NARA clay.  I didn't apply enough pressure with the roller on the first section which made the brick outlines not as pronounced as they could have been.  It also was wavy, to the point of being rather washboard.  On the second, I built a simple frame to rest a rolling pin on to roll the clay flat before using the brick roller.  That came out better.  I did notice on the second one that sections of the clay did rise after rolling.  Of course, I don't expect the street to be flat.  The prototype ones here in Butler have lots of dips, some far worse than others. 

Yesterday, I saw a photograph of men working finishing building a brick street here in Butler.  The woman who shared it said her grandfather had worked doing that between 1905 and 1915. 

This is the second try still on the frame.

The first try is on the left.  It is noticeable that the bricks aren't as pronounced.

Here they are laying on the layout.  The second one is in the front.  That used up one brick of NARA clay.  I still have 5 bricks, so that will be plenty even if I decide to not uses some of the first tries.

On another note, I decided to do away with the two 042 switches discussed at the top of this page, and install a pair of Ross #4 RH switches like the #4 LH switches that are at the yard lead and this spur.  I preordered them with my LHS at $10 less than other vendors were asking.  So that project is now on the back burner awaiting parts.

Looks good Mark, are you doing a curved street as I think that would look cool on your layout!

On another note, I am glad you decided to change the switches out.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I have made two sections of brick street from the NARA clay.  I didn't apply enough pressure with the roller on the first section which made the brick outlines not as pronounced as they could have been.  It also was wavy, to the point of being rather washboard.  On the second, I built a simple frame to rest a rolling pin on to roll the clay flat before using the brick roller.  That came out better.  I did notice on the second one that sections of the clay did rise after rolling.  Of course, I don't expect the street to be flat.  The prototype ones here in Butler have lots of dips, some far worse than others.

Yesterday, I saw a photograph of men working finishing building a brick street here in Butler.  The woman who shared it said her grandfather had worked doing that between 1905 and 1915.

This is the second try still on the frame.

The first try is on the left.  It is noticeable that the bricks aren't as pronounced.

Here they are laying on the layout.  The second one is in the front.  That used up one brick of NARA clay.  I still have 5 bricks, so that will be plenty even if I decide to not uses some of the first tries.

On another note, I decided to do away with the two 042 switches discussed at the top of this page, and install a pair of Ross #4 RH switches like the #4 LH switches that are at the yard lead and this spur.  I preordered them with my LHS at $10 less than other vendors were asking.  So that project is now on the back burner awaiting parts.

You're doing good Mark. It's nice that you found a real life connection.

Nice work Mark. I have to ask where did you get the brick roller. Really cool idea

Mark when you make the brick imprint, either dunk the roller in water or sprinkle some on the clay. The extra moisture helps the clay release from the rollers. Another option is to let the flat clay rest for 10 to 30 minutes to let the surface dry some before you imprint. That will also reduce the tackiness. Glad you are getting lots of hits on the clay streets.  If you decide to do a curved street keeping even pressure for the imprint and rolling and turning at the same time  -- thats some trial and error. But it can be done. You are trying to roll one end slightly faster than the other, good thing clay slips.

Thank you, Mike, Bob, poconotrain, Jeff!

Mike, I do plan to make the curved street brick, but need some more practice first.

Bob, yes it is good.  I knew the streets were 'paved' with brick in the early 1900s, but never knew of a connection to someone who actually did the work to indicate during what actual time period.

poconotrains, I bought mine from the source @ScoutingDad gave me "bought the roller off etsy from a vendor G28MachinistCrafts"  My wife has an Etsy account, so I bought it there.

Jeff, I did wet the roller on both tries, but did not wet the clay.  I saw the clay was sticking as the moisture went away, but hadn't prepared with more water at hand and just kept rolling.  That is a good suggestion to let it dry a little before using the roller.  Yes, that will be a new trial to get it right rolling the curved street.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Mike, Bob, poconotrain, Jeff!

Mike, I do plan to make the curved street brick, but need some more practice first.

Bob, yes it is good.  I knew the streets were 'paved' with brick in the early 1900s, but never knew of a connection to someone who actually did the work to indicate during what actual time period.

poconotrains, I bought mine from the source @ScoutingDad gave me "bought the roller off etsy from a vendor G28MachinistCrafts"  My wife has an Etsy account, so I bought it there.

Jeff, I did wet the roller on both tries, but did not wet the clay.  I saw the clay was sticking as the moisture went away, but hadn't prepared with more water at hand and just kept rolling.  That is a good suggestion to let it dry a little before using the roller.  Yes, that will be a new trial to get it right rolling the curved street.

Mark  @Scouting Dad Jeff, I have questions about the use of clay for a tunnel portal. I recently advised my son to make a tunnel portal out of plaster of Paris by making a cardboard mold and filling it and the use a hobby knife to make the mortar lines for building blocks. Followed by a wire brush to remove the sprue like plaster. Would the clay work standing up? Is there a roller for building blocks? Thanks

Bob, could you with clay, yes, would you want to, maybe not. Plaster, foam, drywall, wood, masonitw can all be used to make a portal. There are so many good portals out there, why not buy one? Save the time for the things you cannot find or are too pricy for the budget. There are all kinds of rollers out there for making just about any surface you might want out of clay. There are even foam rollers. 

Thank you, Bob, Jeff!

Bob, Jeff has a point.  I don't know that I could ever make a portal with the detail of this commercial foam one.  However, I did watch a Joey Ricard video last evening of how to make a stone pier from a piece of extruded Styrofoam.

As Jeff mentioned foam rollers, I wondered what the one I am using for clay would do on foam.  If I could exert more pressure, it wouldn't be too bad.

Mark,

I learn something from everything you post! But I wouldn’t sweat how perfectly  the brick is. When I was a kid, my grandparents lived in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn. Most of the cobblestone streets had be covered with concrete which the over the years had worn away, exposing the stone streets. The passage of time and traffic had worn down the “ bricks” to the point where they were very uneven and some were so worn as to be indistinct. So I wouldn’t worry about roughness. Once they’re painted and weathered they’ll look fine.

The foam wall looks great Mark!

@ScoutingDad posted:

Bob, could you with clay, yes, would you want to, maybe not. Plaster, foam, drywall, wood, masonitw can all be used to make a portal. There are so many good portals out there, why not buy one? Save the time for the things you cannot find or are too pricy for the budget. There are all kinds of rollers out there for making just about any surface you might want out of clay. There are even foam rollers.

Jeff, Thanks; but let me give you the back story. My son is finally starting a layout. He cut a hole between two rooms to make the yards longer. He asked his adult daughter to paint a portal; she replied that he should glue rocks to the wall. He said it's probably larger than a 2 track portal.  Problem is I'll never see it first hand. It's a dangerous staircase for an able bodied person. I took enough space on Mark's thread.

That’s a good potential concept Mark. Even on the right could be made to look like cement falling away.

Thank you, Rubin, Mike, Bob, Jay!

Rubin, You are right about the way the bricks or stones are weathered/dislodged over the years.  My thoughts have been based on the 2-foot rule, where how much detail is there when looking at a model/scenery from 2 feet away, or in O scale 96 inches away.  So, what would the real brick street look like from rounding to 100 feet away?  As far as the brick street goes, it would probably be somewhere between the first try and the second try.  I did say I was going to practice painting and weathering the first try, but haven't yet.  Actually, either of them would work just fine suggesting a brick street as opposed to an asphalt one.

Mike, isn't it interesting how a comment by Bob got me thinking abut what a piece of foam would look like with the roller impression.

Bob, I am certainly not opposed to side discussions on this thread like the one you started about making portals.  It is still modeling brick or stonework.

Jay, yes I was 'impressed' too with the impression the roller left on Styrofoam.  There could certainly be a use for that technique on the layout.  Maybe other rollers with different brick or stone designs would be worth looking at.  It certainly was quicker than measuring and carving. 

Thank you everyone for taking a look-see!

Mark, i just realized this thread was yours!  Impressive going back to 2017.  I'll read over from the beginning as time allows...great progress you've made over the past few years,,,

Thank you, Paul!  I’m glad you want to read from the beginning.  Be prepared for several twists and turns as you proceed.  The initial plan looks nothing like what is there now.  😃

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Rubin, Mike, Bob, Jay!

Rubin, You are right about the way the bricks or stones are weathered/dislodged over the years.  My thoughts have been based on the 2-foot rule, where how much detail is there when looking at a model/scenery from 2 feet away, or in O scale 96 inches away.  So, what would the real brick street look like from rounding to 100 feet away?  As far as the brick street goes, it would probably be somewhere between the first try and the second try.  I did say I was going to practice painting and weathering the first try, but haven't yet.  Actually, either of them would work just fine suggesting a brick street as opposed to an asphalt one.

Mike, isn't it interesting how a comment by Bob got me thinking abut what a piece of foam would look like with the roller impression.

Bob, I am certainly not opposed to side discussions on this thread like the one you started about making portals.  It is still modeling brick or stonework.

Jay, yes I was 'impressed' too with the impression the roller left on Styrofoam.  There could certainly be a use for that technique on the layout.  Maybe other rollers with different brick or stone designs would be worth looking at.  It certainly was quicker than measuring and carving. 

Thank you everyone for taking a look-see!

Another possible experiment would be to coat the foam board with joint compound, let it set up some, and then roll the bricks.

It’s great getting all of these ideas and then seeing the experiments.

Thank you, Jay!

That's another good suggestion.  The possibilities are almost endless.

After pealing the second clay try, I saw it did this.  A crown is nice, but this is a bit much! 

Some differences from the first try.  The second was formed on the particle board instead of birch plywood.  Maybe it absorbed moisture.  I painted the particle board and the second coat is drying.  Second, I pealed it off about after the second day instead of the 4th day.  This one measured about 4 mm thick instead of about 2 1/2 mm.  I'll make the next one thinner like Jeff suggested.

I painted both strips using a mix of burnt umber and red.  Then I gave both a wash of a dark gray on the upper part of the strips in this photograph.  I think they are pretty close to the local brick streets with minimal effort so far.  A little variety in the brick color would be nice, but I don't know if I have the patience for that. 

Another variation is a dull yellow for the bricks.  Streets near where our younger daughter lives and around the courthouse have that color brick.  I haven't taken any photographs of them.

No worries about puddles forming on those streets.

Looks good Mark! Keep trying and I know you will get the outcome your looking for!

Mark, clay loses water as it dries so it will shrink. The challenge is to control the shrink. Making the clay sheet thin helps with quicker drying. Using a porous material like wood as a substrate will pull water faster from the bottom causing the cupping. I formed my sheets on a modeling mat which worked pretty well. Covering the clay with a damp towel would help slow down the uneven drying. My trolley brick was formed in place on plywood. As long as the wood is damp, the clay will stick and.not be able to cup.  You might be able to flatten your bricks by turning face down, covering with a damp towel and weighting it down for 12 to 24 hours. Not sure if the drying of this material is reversible, but worth a try.

Thank you, Steve, Mike, Jeff!

Steve,

Mike,

Jeff, I know you shared instructions and observations with me in at least a couple posts.  I thought I could find them, but didn't come up with all of them.    Thank you for posting suggestions again.  I am ready to do some more brick paving and cleared a wide spot on the layout to provide enough elbow room for the straight street perpendicular to the layout edge.  I'll follow your suggestions dampening the plywood, rolling the clay out to about 2 mm, make sure the roller stays damp, and report back in a couple days.  Thank you.

I trimmed two sections that I molded right on the layout.  They came out pretty nicely, I think.  I trimmed some of the first section that I made and started painting to fill in the back street and a section that I had miscalculated.  That does it for the strait sections of the streets.  Now it's time for the two curves.  Thank you, Jeff!

Wow, looks nice Mark.

It's amazing how brick and stone streets are still around. They survived the elements and time.

John

@Mark Boyce posted:

I trimmed two sections that I molded right on the layout.  They came out pretty nicely, I think.  I trimmed some of the first section that I made and started painting to fill in the back street and a section that I had miscalculated.  That does it for the strait sections of the streets.  Now it's time for the two curves.  Thank you, Jeff!

Wow Mark, this could be a perfect, authentic match! The distressed brick shading and aging cement/mortar imperfections look just perfect. Do you think it will keep the same look when you give it the brick red color? Keep up the great work.

Gene

@Mark Boyce posted:

I trimmed two sections that I molded right on the layout.  They came out pretty nicely, I think.  I trimmed some of the first section that I made and started painting to fill in the back street and a section that I had miscalculated.  That does it for the strait sections of the streets.  Now it's time for the two curves.  Thank you, Jeff!

Everything's looking great Mark. Love the brick.

It was a massive amount of work, but it appears to be worth it. Great job!

Mark, when you paint the brick, consider starting with the "seam" color. I used a dark wash to get the tint I wanted between bricks. Then I used a sponge and brushes with various colors to get the brick color. Kind of backward from doing a building, but it worked for me. I kept the brush lightly loaded so I was not getting blobs all over the place. Kind of like dry-brushing but without wasting all that paint.

Mark looks like a great base coat! Keep up the wonderful work!

Thank you Jeff and Mark for sharing your research and experimentation. This is something that I will be pursuing. And, good luck with creating the curves as we look forward to the outcome.

Jay

I like the gray color, it reminds me of the Belgian block  paving in Baltimore. Belgian blocks were cut granite(?) blocks used as ballast in empty sailing ships coming to Baltimore for outbound loadings. These would pile up around the harbor (huge piles over the years) and someone got the idea to use them as paving instead of bricks. The Belgian blocks were free and bricks had to be bought. Note that hey never wore out like other common forms of paving.

Thank you, John, Gene, Dave Ripp, Myles, Jeff, Mike, Jay, Dave PRRMP54!

John, It is amazing.  We have potholes everywhere in asphalt, but the 120-year old brick streets are fine!

Gene, I'm not sure if it will have the same effect.  Maybe if I don't put on too much paint. 

Dave, you could give it a try on the town you are building.  It would be neat to do around your passenger station. 

Myles, it is a good bit of work.  ScoutingDad Jeff did this, and I even said I wasn't going to go to the effort.  I wasn't sure how I would get the curves to look right with brick embossed sheets.  Jeff said it would be worth the effort, and was right.  I have half of the just over 6 feet of street left to do.

Jeff, I will try painting the seam color first as you suggested and see how it goes.

Mike, I'm glad the results look good.  It takes a lot of pressing down to roll it out flat and then getting the brick imprint embossed deep enough.

Jay, Jeff's The Man!  Yes - the curves!    That may result in some trial and error wasted clay.  I have plenty, and it is inexpensive.  Please make sure you show us yours when you get to that.

Dave, I can see where this already resembles the Belgian blocks.  Thank you for the information on where they came from.  I can see they would last as long as some Roman roads.

I mentioned above, but I will here again.  The brick streets here in Butler don't seem to be effected with the salt they put on the roads in the winter.  They take a pretty good beating with traffic as well.  The road our older daughter lives on what was the original Old Plank Road to Pittsburgh.  It winds down the hill past our daughter's to the bridge into town.  It doesn't get truck traffic, since State Route 8 was built to Pittsburgh in the 1930s.  However, there is still a lot of car and bus traffic.  The rows of bricks have slipped down the hill in varying rates so the rows look wavy.  Up on the hill the rows are still straight.  The only dips are where the dug it up for utilities, then replaced the bricks.  I have been paying more attention, and you can see when they got a new batch of bricks as there is a distinct line where the bricks change from a reddish brown to a little less reddish. 

I haven't decided whether I will try to roll some clay on one of the curves or try Jeff's painting approach on what I have first.  My hands are hurting from painting one side of the hallway earlier today. 

You deserve a break Mark.

My in-laws live not far from the Bellevue area and there are several brick streets. The only holes are from plumbers replacing lines from the houses.            

Mark, here are close ups of the curved brick. The curve is about 18 inch radius. I used the track as a guide while I rolled around the curve. Presumably the clay on the inside of the radius is getting mashed a little. There is a trick to rolling the inside slower than the outside. Kind of like trying to pivot around the inner portion of the roller. As long as you keep rolling in one direction the bricks seem to turn out ok.  I rolled the clay out in place as I thought I would be easier to imprint in place given the radius changes from inside to out.  The gaps between the bricks were dark until ModgePodge gloss dried cloudy. Not happy

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, John, Gene, Dave Ripp, Myles, Jeff, Mike, Jay, Dave PRRMP54!

John, It is amazing.  We have potholes everywhere in asphalt, but the 120-year old brick streets are fine!

Gene, I'm not sure if it will have the same effect.  Maybe if I don't put on too much paint.

Dave, you could give it a try on the town you are building.  It would be neat to do around your passenger station. 

Myles, it is a good bit of work.  ScoutingDad Jeff did this, and I even said I wasn't going to go to the effort.  I wasn't sure how I would get the curves to look right with brick embossed sheets.  Jeff said it would be worth the effort, and was right.  I have half of the just over 6 feet of street left to do.

Jeff, I will try painting the seam color first as you suggested and see how it goes.

Mike, I'm glad the results look good.  It takes a lot of pressing down to roll it out flat and then getting the brick imprint embossed deep enough.

Jay, Jeff's The Man!  Yes - the curves!    That may result in some trial and error wasted clay.  I have plenty, and it is inexpensive.  Please make sure you show us yours when you get to that.

Dave, I can see where this already resembles the Belgian blocks.  Thank you for the information on where they came from.  I can see they would last as long as some Roman roads.

I mentioned above, but I will here again.  The brick streets here in Butler don't seem to be effected with the salt they put on the roads in the winter.  They take a pretty good beating with traffic as well.  The road our older daughter lives on what was the original Old Plank Road to Pittsburgh.  It winds down the hill past our daughter's to the bridge into town.  It doesn't get truck traffic, since State Route 8 was built to Pittsburgh in the 1930s.  However, there is still a lot of car and bus traffic.  The rows of bricks have slipped down the hill in varying rates so the rows look wavy.  Up on the hill the rows are still straight.  The only dips are where the dug it up for utilities, then replaced the bricks.  I have been paying more attention, and you can see when they got a new batch of bricks as there is a distinct line where the bricks change from a reddish brown to a little less reddish.

I haven't decided whether I will try to roll some clay on one of the curves or try Jeff's painting approach on what I have first.  My hands are hurting from painting one side of the hallway earlier today. 

Dave, you could give it a try on the town you are building.  It would be neat to do around your passenger station.

Mark, it's been on my mind LOL.

Thank you, Jay, Jeff, Dave!

Jay, It's been a long time since I was in Bellevue.  I looked on Google Maps and see a lot of yellowish tan streets like are in the northeast part of Butler near the hospital.  Yes, they are staking up the bricks and relaying them when they finish each part of the pipe work by our younger daughter's in-laws.  I'm going to watch and see if they sink or not since I am witnessing the repair.  I think the slight bumps and dips on my clay streets mimic that without even trying. 

Jeff, thank you for the great photograph and description of rolling on the curve.  Yours really looks nice.  My curves aren't as tight a radius as yours, so hopefully it will turn out right the first or second try.

Dave,

I painted all the depressions with charcoal gray and let it dry overnight.  Then I mixed burnt sienna with red and tried to paint only the tops of the bricks.  I got some in the gaps.  I'll wash it with some charcoal gray when it is good and dry and see what it looks like.

Color looks nice Mark.  You could dab areas with other colors for more variation in the brick. Chalks could be used to lay down tire wear. Nice work. Jeff

I think the color looks good Mark. The brick road.i worked on was always filled with sand between the bricks. We would do our repairs, put sand over everything compact with a small roller and then a mobile broom to pick up the loose sand and save it for next time.

I am sure it will be great what ever you decide!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Jeff, Dave!

Jay, It's bee a long time since I was in Bellevue.  I looked on Google Maps and see a lot of yellowish tan streets like are in the northwest part of Butler near the hospital.  Yes, they are staking up the bricks and relaying them when they finish each part of the pipe work by our younger daughter's in-laws.  I'm going to watch and see if they sink or not since I am witnessing the repair.  I think the slight bumps and dips on my clay streets mimic that without even trying. 

Jeff, thank you for the great photograph and description of rolling on the curve.  Yours really looks nice.  My curves aren't as tight a radius as yours, so hopefully it will turn out right the first or second try.

Dave,

I painted all the depressions with charcoal gray and let it dry overnight.  Then I mixed burnt sienna with red and tried to paint only the tops of the bricks.  I got some in the gaps.  I'll wash it with some charcoal gray when it is good and dry and see what it looks like.

Mark, you nailed it, congratulations. Thank you for sharing your work. Now: Onto the curves.

Mark,

That paint job is just masterful! Well done!

@Mark Boyce

Mark,  that looks fantastic. You've gone from novice to Master Bricklayer in a very short time.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I painted all the depressions with charcoal gray and let it dry overnight.  Then I mixed burnt sienna with red and tried to paint only the tops of the bricks.  I got some in the gaps.  I'll wash it with some charcoal gray when it is good and dry and see what it looks like.

Mark, the red looks as perfect as you could get. Like you mentioned, just try to get more of the mortar joints defined. Nicely done!

Gene

@Mark Boyce posted:

I painted all the depressions with charcoal gray and let it dry overnight.  Then I mixed burnt sienna with red and tried to paint only the tops of the bricks.  I got some in the gaps.  I'll wash it with some charcoal gray when it is good and dry and see what it looks like.

Looks great Mark. Some weathering will put it over the top.

Bob

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Jeff, Dave!

Jay, It's bee a long time since I was in Bellevue.  I looked on Google Maps and see a lot of yellowish tan streets like are in the northwest part of Butler near the hospital.  Yes, they are staking up the bricks and relaying them when they finish each part of the pipe work by our younger daughter's in-laws.  I'm going to watch and see if they sink or not since I am witnessing the repair.  I think the slight bumps and dips on my clay streets mimic that without even trying. 

Jeff, thank you for the great photograph and description of rolling on the curve.  Yours really looks nice.  My curves aren't as tight a radius as yours, so hopefully it will turn out right the first or second try.

Dave,

I painted all the depressions with charcoal gray and let it dry overnight.  Then I mixed burnt sienna with red and tried to paint only the tops of the bricks.  I got some in the gaps.  I'll wash it with some charcoal gray when it is good and dry and see what it looks like.

Looking fantastic!

Peter

Looks great !

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Jeff, Dave!

Jay, It's been a long time since I was in Bellevue.  I looked on Google Maps and see a lot of yellowish tan streets like are in the northeast part of Butler near the hospital.  Yes, they are staking up the bricks and relaying them when they finish each part of the pipe work by our younger daughter's in-laws.  I'm going to watch and see if they sink or not since I am witnessing the repair.  I think the slight bumps and dips on my clay streets mimic that without even trying. 

Jeff, thank you for the great photograph and description of rolling on the curve.  Yours really looks nice.  My curves aren't as tight a radius as yours, so hopefully it will turn out right the first or second try.

Dave,

I painted all the depressions with charcoal gray and let it dry overnight.  Then I mixed burnt sienna with red and tried to paint only the tops of the bricks.  I got some in the gaps.  I'll wash it with some charcoal gray when it is good and dry and see what it looks like.

Mark, upon further review, I focused in where the bricks line up with the sidewalk and I think the color is realistic. I concur with Jeff that some smudges, oil stains, etc. will enhance the outcome. Try putting some autos and people crossing the street for the effect.

Thank you, Jeff, Mike, Jay, Rubin, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Peter, Richie!

Wow, what feedback!  I agree, I need to touch up the joints, some variation in brick color, weathering to show travel, and some cars and pedestrians.  Thank you, everyone!!!

I rolled the curved sections of brick streets a couple days ago, and they are dry now.  I trimmed them to width since taking the photographs while parts were still a little moist.  While neither section turned out exactly as I had imagined, they are really close.  On the left side, my pivots of the roller weren't smooth, but still looks good.

The right hand side pivoted better, but I got a little off from where I intended, but it will work out fine.

Yesterday, I took a couple photographs of the brick road in front of her house.  This is the road that winds down the hill into town.  The white between bricks is salt residue.  Why should I worry if my pivots of the roller weren't smooth flowing.  Those fellows back in 1905 certainly weren't worried about it. 

I hope to do some painting tomorrow (famous last words).  After a nice week, the weatherman predicts rain.

That’s a milestone Mark; congratulations. I think you’ll be pleased with the outcome once it’s all in place. If there is an area you aren’t pleased with you can put a vehicle in the vicinity. No one will ever know.

Mark I think it looks great! Once your all painted up it will fit eight in. As Tranquil stated when your cars are in place every thing is perfect! 😀

Man, those cobblestones are amazing!  Aren't you the clever cleaver!

Seriously, that's good work!

George

@Mark Boyce posted:

I rolled the curved sections of brick streets a couple days ago, and they are dry now.  I trimmed them to width since taking the photographs while parts were still a little moist.  While neither section turned out exactly as I had imagined, they are really close.  On the left side, my pivots of the roller weren't smooth, but still looks good.

The right hand side pivoted better, but I got a little off from where I intended, but it will work out fine.

Yesterday, I took a couple photographs of the brick road in front of her house.  This is the road that winds down the hill into town.  The white between bricks is salt residue.  Why should I worry if my pivots of the roller weren't smooth flowing.  Those fellows back in 1905 certainly weren't worried about it. 

I hope to do some painting tomorrow (famous last words).  After a nice week, the weatherman predicts rain.

It's all coming together nicely Mark!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Yesterday, I took a couple photographs of the brick road in front of her house.  This is the road that winds down the hill into town.  The white between bricks is salt residue.  Why should I worry if my pivots of the roller weren't smooth flowing.  Those fellows back in 1905 certainly weren't worried about it. 
With that being said, it should be easier for you and forgiving to let the minor setbacks pass. I think it looks outstanding for its purpose.

Gene

I hope to do some painting tomorrow (famous last words).  After a nice week, the weatherman predicts rain.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I rolled the curved sections of brick streets a couple days ago, and they are dry now.  I trimmed them to width since taking the photographs while parts were still a little moist.  While neither section turned out exactly as I had imagined, they are really close.  On the left side, my pivots of the roller weren't smooth, but still looks good.

I hope to do some painting tomorrow (famous last words).  After a nice week, the weatherman predicts rain.

For a minute there I thought you were replicating Arnold's Yankee Stadium!

This really looks great Mark. The small deviations just add to the realism and charm of brick roads. Worst case you could chop out a spot and put the DOT out to complete the repairs.

Bob

roadways and walkways are the connecting "track" between buildings.

this brick approach using clay with at brick design impression roller has a lot of uses.

I use laser cut designs to created regular patterned openings in the overall shape of the street path and then use a 3D printed insert pattern to fit inside the openings.

I may now go back to clay!

Thank you, Jay, Mike, George, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Alan!

Jay, Mike, I did plop down some vehicles, but didn't really pick any areas I'm not pleased with.

George, I give @ScoutingDad Jeff all the credit.  He did all the heavy lifting and then coached me. 

Bob, Gene, yes the real thing is really enlightening.  I knew there were places like the seam, but had forgotten one was right in front of our older daughter's house. 

Bob, I thought similarly as I first looked at it.  I was thinking maybe the Little League right beside the rural grade school I attended 60 years ago.    A good case in point for repairs is where contractors are repairing a water line by our younger daughter's in-laws.  They remove the bricks and neatly stack them on the sidewalk, do the repairs, prep the base, and finally relay the bricks.  They have worked on it as the weather allows since last fall, and the part they have finished looks great!  It would really be an interesting scene. 

Alan, your comment got me thinking.  Maybe a 3D printed design would work for a modern walkway; all nice and flat with great designs.  For 120-year old streets, the randomness of the clay rolling may be better.  Each takes some work, but very different kind of work.

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over. 

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Mike, George, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Alan!

Jay, Mike, I did plop down some vehicles, but didn't really pick any areas I'm not pleased with.

George, I give @ScoutingDad Jeff all the credit.  He did all the heavy lifting and then coached me. 

Bob, Gene, yes the real thing is really enlightening.  I knew there were places like the seam, but had forgotten one was right in front of our older daughter's house. 

Bob, I thought similarly as I first looked at it.  I was thinking maybe the Little League right beside the rural grade school I attended 60 years ago.    A good case in point for repairs is where contractors are repairing a water line by our younger daughter's in-laws.  They remove the bricks and neatly stack them on the sidewalk, do the repairs, prep the base, and finally relay the bricks.  They have worked on it as the weather allows since last fall, and the part they have finished looks great!  It would really be an interesting scene. 

Alan, your comment got me thinking.  Maybe a 3D printed design would work for a modern walkway; all nice and flat with great designs.  For 120-year old streets, the randomness of the clay rolling may be better.  Each takes some work, but very different kind of work.

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over.

Wow Mark that looks great! I think you have hit a home run!

@Mark Boyce posted:

Mark, I know there is a lot more work to do, but this scene ... just wow. the brick streets are so unusual, they provide a foundation for everything else to come to life. Great vision and imagination.   Jeff

I think you are going to need a couple of trees. 

Mark, I can feel the bumps and hear the suspension creaking! 

George

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Mike, George, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Alan!

Jay, Mike, I did plop down some vehicles, but didn't really pick any areas I'm not pleased with.

George, I give @ScoutingDad Jeff all the credit.  He did all the heavy lifting and then coached me. 

Bob, Gene, yes the real thing is really enlightening.  I knew there were places like the seam, but had forgotten one was right in front of our older daughter's house. 

Bob, I thought similarly as I first looked at it.  I was thinking maybe the Little League right beside the rural grade school I attended 60 years ago.    A good case in point for repairs is where contractors are repairing a water line by our younger daughter's in-laws.  They remove the bricks and neatly stack them on the sidewalk, do the repairs, prep the base, and finally relay the bricks.  They have worked on it as the weather allows since last fall, and the part they have finished looks great!  It would really be an interesting scene. 

Alan, your comment got me thinking.  Maybe a 3D printed design would work for a modern walkway; all nice and flat with great designs.  For 120-year old streets, the randomness of the clay rolling may be better.  Each takes some work, but very different kind of work.

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over.

Mark, WOW! I hope you are pleased with the results because it looks spectacular. You and Jeff are the pioneers in another dimension of scenery. Truly, you and Jeff should be co-authors on an article for an edition of OGR. Congratulations 🍾🎈🎉🎊

Jay

@Mark Boyce posted:

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over.

Excellent work Mark, your time and patience have paid off!

Thank you, Mike, Jeff, George, Jay, Gene!

Jeff, Thank you, and thank you for all your help and suggestions!  Yes, some trees are certainly needed!

George, yes.  The suspension; just like driving the Diamond in Butler! 

Jay, Jeff can write the article and I'll add a couple photographs.

Gene, and I was thinking I wasn't patient enough. 

I have two projects associated with the town that I want to do next, besides figuring out the sidewalks.  One is the Bar Mills Lenny's Service shop that will go right up front.  The other is tying in the highway bridge at the far right of the scene.  Both have been started, though the bridge is farther along.  Oh, and I need a tree or two.

Mark, I was watching an HO guy add scenes to his extensive layout and liked what he was doing when adding buildings to various scenes.  He used heavy poster board thoroughly coated with primer on both sides as a base for his buildings including side walks. He sanded the areas where the building pavement met the street creating a smooth transition. I am a big fan of being able to work on the areas off the layout and then place them as needed. The modeler is Jason Jensen. check your email.  Jeff

Jeff, I have watched Jason Jenson videos.  But it has been a while since I watched and I have not seen anything you are describing.  I checked my email and see the link.  Thank you very much!  I agree working off the layout and placing a scene on is appealing.  I was just working on getting the support heights and angle right for the bridge on the right and needed to sit down.  😀

Mark you are giving me ideas I have a sectionof my layout that has several Isaly buildings and the brick streets would look great where I have place them. Partially raised in Southside just down the street from J&L Carson Street works what you are doing reminds me of those streets from back in the late fifties. I may have to give it a try. What kind of clay are you using for the brick streets? I found the rollers on the web. Keep up that great work it really looks great and very reminiscent of the Burgh I grew up in. Left there in 62 and moved to Florida where every thing is asphalt or concrete.

@RJT posted:

Mark you are giving me ideas I have a sectionof my layout that has several Isaly buildings and the brick streets would look great where I have place them. Partially raised in Southside just down the street from J&L Carson Street works what you are doing reminds me of those streets from back in the late fifties. I may have to give it a try. What kind of clay are you using for the brick streets? I found the rollers on the web. Keep up that great work it really looks great and very reminiscent of the Burgh I grew up in. Left there in 62 and moved to Florida where every thing is asphalt or concrete.

Rick, I went back a few pages and this is the information Jeff provided.

Jay

Thank you, Rick!  Isley and brick street!  Excellent combination!     Yes, I'm sure the Southside had brick streets!!

Thank you, Jay for going back and taking a screen shot!  That is exactly what I bought!

Mark do you roll out the entire 1 pd block or divide it up into smaller sections? Hobby Lobby has it on sale now @$2.09 a pound  and I have a store 10 minutes from my home. Yes they had them when I left in fact coming down into Southside from the Arlington Projects ( at lest that is what we called them back in the 50’s) the road was still brick last time I was in the Burgh was several years ago.

Rick, start with a 1/4 brick and knead it for a while to get it to soften up. Then roll out to a 2 to 3 MM thickness. The roller is only 4 inches wide and for me 16 long is about as long as I can manage. Keep adding clay until you get the dimensions you want.  If rolling in place lay the entire section in place to the desired thickness and trim excess from edges. Then roll the brick in one continuous motion.  As Mark found out different substrates absorb water at different rates, which can result in cupping. My next attempt will be to model building bricks in a 1 to 2 MM sheet. When dry the stuff is pretty firm and rigid. Getting it to dry slow enough not to warp will be the challenge. We've posted other tips on working with the clay and roller to get things to release or stay stuck to the substrate.

There are 2 kinds of rolling taking place here. First is to use something to flatten the clay into a smooth uniform surface, The second rolling is using the patterned roller. I used a 1/2 inch diameter steel rod. A wooden rolling pin is another option.

Thanks Jeff, I’m looking forward to giving this a try.

Thank you Jeff for explaining the process to Rick.  I used a rolling pin to get the clay pretty flat, but had to keep adding water because the clay stuck to the rolling pin.  I rolled some a the layout and one section on the workbench.  Since I had a curved street, I thought it best to do it on the layout.  I still didn’t get the right side of the street exactly where I intended, but it worked out.  

Just found on Hobby Lobby ‘s web sit 10 pd blocks for $9.59 I gonna check my local store and if they have them they will be mine and just ordered the roller from Amazon. I have a hill street scene with four buildings and yinz guys just solved  my street surface problem as I was not sure what I wanted to do with the street surface. Made the grade with 2 inch foam blocks I cut length wise but was not happy with how the street surface was looking with the clay I can mold the top and bottom transitions.

Rick, The clay I bought from the web site are 17.64 ounces (500 grams) for $3.49 each.  For the area I showed in the photographs, I used 3-1/2 of the 6 I bought.  A quick estimate is 4 pounds to do what I did.  I really had no idea how much to buy.  Your plan sounds great!!  I'm going to use some of the open brick to mold the transition from the street end to the bridge on the right.

Mark the area/road I want to do in brick I think will be about 7 feet long and also want to a street parking are the same way as I don’t think they would have changed the street parking to a different surface from the Main Street. At least I don’t remember street parking being different. But I am an old fart and it was along time ago!!!!!!

Rick make sure you get Nara or Das, regular clay does not work, I tried one of the 10 pound clay blocks   Mark. Nara is often on sale for under 2 a block. I think I used 6 blocks for my street. That was over 10 feet and got thick under the ties.

Rick, your memory is probably correct.  It would make sense for them to make it all brick.  The work where I used 4 pounds was about 6 feet long and the roller is 4 inches wide.  In the future, I think I could not waste as much as I did here.

Now that I know what I am looking for and have a rough idea of how far it goes, I'll shop around next time.  Thank you, Jeff!!

@ScoutingDad posted:

Rick make sure you get Nara or Das, regular clay does not work, I tried one of the 10 pound clay blocks   Mark. Nara is often on sale for under 2 a block. I think I used 6 blocks for my street. That was over 10 feet and got thick under the ties.

The box states it is air dry cly and talks about some of the things you mentioned about the surface it dries on and covering with wet paper towels to slow down the drying procees. That is something I will have to do as the humidty in my basement is lucky to be above 30% on average.

Ah the problem with the words "air dry clay".  There is almost no marketing difference between the various air dry clays. I used an air dry clay that rolled out nicely but then cracked and crumbled into dust.  If you did not buy either Nara or DAS, you have unmodified air dry clay which will not work for our purposes. I tried and learned.  Hobby Lobby carries NARA and often has it on sale for $2. Online it is usually around $10 from various suppliers. 

Rick, after I made two sections with mixed results, Jeff advised me to cover the clay with a damp cloth.  I used dampened old tee shirt rags to cover the drying clay.  I used all of what I have rolled after that.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jay, Mike, George, Bob pennsyfan, Gene, Bob RSJB18, Alan!

Jay, Mike, I did plop down some vehicles, but didn't really pick any areas I'm not pleased with.

George, I give @ScoutingDad Jeff all the credit.  He did all the heavy lifting and then coached me. 

Bob, Gene, yes the real thing is really enlightening.  I knew there were places like the seam, but had forgotten one was right in front of our older daughter's house. 

Bob, I thought similarly as I first looked at it.  I was thinking maybe the Little League right beside the rural grade school I attended 60 years ago.    A good case in point for repairs is where contractors are repairing a water line by our younger daughter's in-laws.  They remove the bricks and neatly stack them on the sidewalk, do the repairs, prep the base, and finally relay the bricks.  They have worked on it as the weather allows since last fall, and the part they have finished looks great!  It would really be an interesting scene. 

Alan, your comment got me thinking.  Maybe a 3D printed design would work for a modern walkway; all nice and flat with great designs.  For 120-year old streets, the randomness of the clay rolling may be better.  Each takes some work, but very different kind of work.

I painted and weathered the brick.  I'm going to go back and do some detailing as has been suggested in the past, but thought I would place some vehicles and people in the scene.  If I open the door, the wind will probably blow most of the people over.

Great job, Mark - if you ever need these guys to do repairs, I can let you borrow them. They get paid scale, but do quality work !

Thank  you, Richie!  Those fellows do look like hard workers!  Look at the muscles on the one with the muscle shirt!!

Jeff ScoutingDad sent me a video he had seen that addresses the sidewalk problem, since both of us are contemplating the same thing.  I watched the video and see potential, but need to adapt from HO to O scale, so that is all I have on that at this time.

I again turned attention to the bridge that I have placed at the right side of the town.  I have been puzzling over it for some time.  Ultimately, I do not think it will work for that location.  Even if I tilt it downhill leaving town, it is still too high in relation to the nearest rear track and the foreground tracks.

With or without the bridge I can't make a grade crossing across the rear tracks because trains coming up from the middle of the rear three tracks won't clear it.  Oops on the PRR boxcar!!

I had also thought of having the road wind downhill into the valley between the foreground and rear tracks, but I want to use that area for a farm.  Even without the bridge, that idea will take up too much space.

I am thinking of having the road dip down from the end of the brick street, turn sharply towards the backdrop, and disappear in a tunnel under the tracks.  The Woody shows it would work and nothing interferes with the middle track.  There are several places near where we live that have similar arrangements on the former Bessemer & Lake Erie, now Canadian National.

I think that will be the best way to do it.  What do any of you forum members think?

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Richie!  Those fellows do look like hard workers!  Look at the muscles on the one with the muscle shirt!!

Jeff ScoutingDad sent me a video he had seen that addresses the sidewalk problem, since both of us are contemplating the same thing.  I watched the video and see potential, but need to adapt from HO to O scale, so that is all I have on that at this time.

I again turned attention to the bridge that I have placed at the right side of the town.  I have been puzzling over it for some time.  Ultimately, I do not think it will work for that location.  Even if I tilt it downhill leaving town, it is still too high in relation to the nearest rear track and the foreground tracks.

With or without the bridge I can't make a grade crossing across the rear tracks because trains coming up from the middle of the rear three tracks won't clear it.  Oops on the PRR boxcar!!

I had also thought of having the road wind downhill into the valley between the foreground and rear tracks, but I want to use that area for a farm.  Even without the bridge, that idea will take up too much space.

I am thinking of having the road dip down from the end of the brick street, turn sharply towards the backdrop, and disappear in a tunnel under the tracks.  The Woody shows it would work, and nothing interferes with the middle track.  There are several places near where we live that have similar arrangements on the former Bessemer & Lake Erie, now Canadian National.

I think that will be the best way to do it.  What do any of you forum members think?

Mark, I like the road under the track's idea. I've toyed with the idea for years but being a flat liner it would be tough. I did have a road crossing on a couple layouts that went into a tunnel. Defiantly a good look.

@Mark Boyce postI had also thought of having the road wind downhill into the valley between the foreground and rear tracks, but I want to use that area for a farm.  Even without the bridge, that idea will take up too much space.

I am thinking of having the road dip down from the end of the brick street, turn sharply towards the backdrop, and disappear in a tunnel under the tracks.  The Woody shows it would work and nothing interferes with the middle track.  There are several places near where we live that have similar arrangements on the former Bessemer & Lake Erie, now Canadian National.

I think that will be the best way to do it.  What do any of you forum members think?

That's your best option in my opinion!

Cheers, Dave

Hey Mark I know I am taking g the easy way out. But if you could leave the bridge where it is and just put a traffic barricade at the end. Just an idea! Lol

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank  you, Richie!  Those fellows do look like hard workers!  Look at the muscles on the one with the muscle shirt!!

I am thinking of having the road dip down from the end of the brick street, turn sharply towards the backdrop, and disappear in a tunnel under the tracks.  The Woody shows it would work and nothing interferes with the middle track.  There are several places near where we live that have similar arrangements on the former Bessemer & Lake Erie, now Canadian National.

I think that will be the best way to do it.  What do any of you forum members think?

I like this one Mark. Maybe make the road up in town a dead end and do a hill down to the base level. You can do a gravel road like I did for my corner tunnel.

Bob

@Richie C. posted:

Great job, Mark - if you ever need these guys to do repairs, I can let you borrow them. They get paid scale, but do quality work !

would that be 1:48th of prevailing wage??

Mark, for the under the bridge approach you could try placing a mirror inside the overpass. Properly placed it would create a sense of depth.

Jay

Thank you, Dave Ripp, Dave arlander, Mike, Bob, Jay!

Dave Ripp, One for road into the tunnel.  The roads into tunnels that are common in my area on the B&LE are made of cut stone sort of like Pennsy style and are only one lane wide.  Most have the road coming from one direction at an angle to the tunnel so you can't see oncoming traffic and have to blow your horn before going through.  They were certainly well built.

Dave darlander, One for the road winding down into the valley.  I think that option makes the most sense in the real world.

Mike, One for The Bridge to Nowhere, a name of infamy for the now Fort Duquesne Bridge that is between PNC Park and Heinz Field. 

Bob, Two for dead end and Two for the tunnel.  Yours is an excellent example!  Very well done.  Good point about Richie's workers' wages. 

Jay, the mirror is a good idea.  I have seen it done often, but have never done it myself.

Thank you everyone for the ideas.  I do like the tunnel.  I'm going to ponder it for a while and also see if there are any more suggestions.

I updated the topic subtitle to ...Brick Street Extension...  to focus on the current discussion.  Last evening, I had another idea that I finished mocking up today.  It is actually similar to what I envisioned when I first started placing buildings on the town area months ago.  A twisty turn at the end of a street as it leaves town is quite common in my experience.  I mocked up how the road could cross the two higher tracks and still allow trains to pass underneath if I keep the road back far enough and make it very thin. 

No, there isn't much clearance.  The stack on the Decapod makes it my highest engine and that one boxcar is more modern than I like, so I don't anticipate getting anything higher.  I could push the the road crossing back a little farther towards the corner. 

I put the road going into the tunnel/underpass again.  The steep bank from the town to the road below is reminiscent of the way we have to travel from our house into town.  Of course if I want to use that scene, but have a gentler slope, I could move the road to the left any number of places.  While the next spot to the left is a little too narrow, it is reminiscent of the places that go under the former B&LE I mentioned a couple days ago. 

Mark, how about a hair pin turn to reduce elevation. Even single lane would work. Seen enough of them in my travels.

Also the road over the tracks can be humped.

Hi Mark, I like your idea of going over both sets of tracks and like Jeff said it can be jumped. There are several bridges here in Joplin that way.

@mike g. posted:

Hi Mark, I like your idea of going over both sets of tracks and like Jeff said it can be jumped. There are several bridges here in Joplin that way.

Mike, can you explain your comment that a bridge can be jumped?

@pennsyfan posted:

Mike, can you explain your comment that a bridge can be jumped?

Lol it was spose to be humped!

Mark Boyce: An article from the Wilkinsburg Sun. March 2025

Laketon Road: The Laketon Road Reconstruction project is the first phase of a two-phase project that will convert the brick portions of Laketon Road and Graham Boulevard from brick roads to asphalt. The project will also install ADA ramps and relocate catch basins as needed along these roads. This project will improve safety for pedestrians, bicyclists, motorists, and public transportation riders. As borough residents are aware, the borough has a number of aging, brick surfaced roads. A large portion of the bricks that make up these roads are in a state of disrepair due to their old age. More significantly, the road bases below the bricks have been failing for some time. The combination of damaged bricks and failing bases has created undulating road surfaces that are a safety hazard for multimodal users of the roads. To begin addressing this problem, the borough applied for a Commonwealth Financing Authority (CFE) Multimodal Fund (MMF) grant in July 2023 for a $1.4 million project to convert the brick portions of both Laketon Road and Graham Boulevard into asphalt streets. The borough was awarded, in November 2023, a $643,268 MMF grant. This award provided sufficient funds for the design and construction of the Laketon Road portion of the project.

As one who grew up (?) in Wilkinsburg / Western PA, I have always felt the true character of the area started with brick streets. It seems that the era may be coming to its end.  If one models Western PA in the 20th century the work you are doing is essential. I love it !!

John

@Mark Boyce posted:

... Last evening, I had another idea ...  A twisty turn at the end of a street...

Mark, I must have read you mind last night.  I was thinking the same thing, but thought you may not want to shorten the fire station's driveway.  Regardless, I think the curve heading out of town and over two tracks is a good solution.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I put the road going into the tunnel/underpass again.  ...I could move the road ... any number of places.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I had also thought of having the road wind downhill into the valley between the foreground and rear tracks, but I want to use that area for a farm.  Even without the bridge, that idea will take up too much space.

I also like the idea to have a farm scene situated in the area to the left of the ruler shown in this last picture.  Would a narrow road across this area give the farm you want to model enough space?

Thank you, Jeff, Mike, Bob, John, Steve!

Jeff, Yes indeed in the single lane and hairpin turn!  I could certainly work up something like that.

Jeff, Mike, actually, I had the road humped up a bit using a section I had already cut.  I thought it was too high, so I trimmed it a bit too much.  How about it humped and skewed a bit.  I like that.

John, thank you for the excerpt from the Wilkinsburg Sun.  It is sad it has come to replacing the brick with asphalt there.  Here in Butler, the worst of the remaining brick streets aren't as bad as the potholes in the asphalt ones.   Maybe better built to start with.  Some still get a lot of traffic.  Thank you again!

Steve, you are right I didn't want to shorten the fire station's drive, but finally thought I will if I have to.  You are also right about even a one lane road leading to a farm will take away precious space.  I may just have a lane cross the tracks from the aisle and not connect to anything.  I'll have to work it out.  There is just so much I can do in a limited space.

I like it Mark!

I like the revised curve leading out of town.

@Mark Boyce posted:

.. I may just have a lane cross the tracks from the aisle (to the farm) and not connect to anything (else).

I think a driveway crossing the tracks to the farm from the aisle is a good compromise if you want the space a through road would have taken away from the farm acreage.

Here's another idea.  With the revised curved exit road idea on the table, this raises the question of the notion of also having a road going into a tunnel, which is cool IMO.  If you like this idea, maybe a second road could be added coming from the walk aisle, crossing the two lower level tracks and then heading into a tunnel somewhere around where you had it earlier or maybe a bit to the right of where it's depicted in this borrowed image (is it ok to borrow your picture for illustrating the idea?) :

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jeff, Mike, Bob, John, Steve!

Jeff, Yes indeed in the single lane and hairpin turn!  I could certainly work up something like that.

Jeff, Mike, actually, I had the road humped up a bit using a section I had already cut.  I thought it was too high, so I trimmed it a bit too much.  How about it humped and skewed a bit.  I like that.

John, thank you for the excerpt from the Wilkinsburg Sun.  It is sad it has come to replacing the brick with asphalt there.  Here in Butler, the worst of the remaining brick streets aren't as bad as the potholes in the asphalt ones.   Maybe better built to start with.  Some still get a lot of traffic.  Thank you again!

Steve, you are right I didn't want to shorten the fire station's drive, but finally thought I will if I have to.  You are also right about even a one lane road leading to a farm will take away precious space.  I may just have a lane cross the tracks from the aisle and not connect to anything.  I'll have to work it out.  There is just so much I can do in a limited space.

Mark, Maybe I missed an earlier discussion; but in the first picture if the road turned to the left after the first track and crossed the second track where the caboose is. Would that work?

Mark, I don’t have much experience in designing streets, but I’m sure whatever you do, with the guidance from others, will look perfect. I’ll be following the progress.

Gene

So many ideas....so here we go.....

As my Colombian HVAC Foreman would say "we're gonna try something crazy here".....

Hear me out Mark. I like where the discussion is going.
First suggestion is to split this up. Have the road out of town take a slightly more gentle down slope. Then split it so that the lower road is close to the track heading up with a right turn at the end into the tunnel below the track. The road can be surrounded by retaining walls on both sides.

THEN.....the lower road could S turn from the other side of the switch (left to right) and tie into the other road going into the tunnel.

I envision the upper level road bridge over the gap being a stone arch bridge.

Just my $.02......

Bob

Thank you, Mike, Steve, Bob, Gene!

Steve, by all means borrow any of my photographs and doctor them up at will!  This is a quick mockup that is approximately what you drew, I think. 

I am going to handle the slope in front of the track rising to the left is to make it a large fill.  Most of these tunnel/underpasses I see are tunneling through two-track fills, some rather high.  That will leave a relatively flat or rolling area to the right for the farm.  It is purely by accident that I now have white on black, which does show up nicely for photographs.

Bob, it is easy to miss something for sure.  I am doing it all the time on other threads.  I think I see what you are getting at.  The road would travel in between the two tracks for a ways, which is a great idea!  I will have to set something up and take a photograph or two of that.

Gene, as with my reply to Bob I need all the input I can get.  While I have built layouts in HO and N scale, none got this far with scenery since an N scale layout, I dismantled in the mid '90s when we moved back to Western Pennsylvania from West Virginia.  The rural part of that layout was at a rather nice level of finish and I was in the process of developing a town that had buildings and streets on several levels.  As I recall, my streets were sections of shirt box cardboard cut to length and width when I discarded all of it.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Mike, Steve, Bob, Gene!

As I recall, my streets were sections of shirt box cardboard cut to length and width when I discarded all of it.

My roads are cereal box cardboard......been a long time since the road crew was on site.

@pennsyfan Bob, I think what you are suggesting is something like this.

@RSJB18 Bob, I am a little less sure of what you are suggesting.  Is it something like this?  Granted, it would need some revision to lessen the grade.

The cereal boxes work good.  Your road crew hasn't been around for a while.  My town crew hasn't worked on the bricks since 1905! 

@Mark Boyce posted:

@pennsyfan Bob, I think what you are suggesting is something like this.

@RSJB18 Bob, I am a little less sure of what you are suggesting.  Is it something like this?  Granted, it would need some revision to lessen the grade.

The cereal boxes work good.  Your road crew hasn't been around for a while.  My town crew hasn't worked on the bricks since 1905! 

I like the first one form @pennsyfan. It looks the easiest and gives you a route to the back of town.

Maybe something like this?

Thank you, Mike, Steve!  

Mike, I like pennsyfan Bob’s suggestion also.

Steve, now I get it!  Yes, that looks more like what I think Bob meant.  I think that is a good possibility.

@Mark Boyce posted:

@pennsyfan Bob, I think what you are suggesting is something like this.

@RSJB18 Bob, I am a little less sure of what you are suggesting.  Is it something like this?  Granted, it would need some revision to lessen the grade.

The cereal boxes work good.  Your road crew hasn't been around for a while.  My town crew hasn't worked on the bricks since 1905! 

Mark, the first picture is a great example of what I meant.

Here's a crude mock up Mark.

The bridge would come off the upper road with cars going under from the front edge. The rest is self explanatory I think.

Thank you, pennsyfan Bob, RSJB18 Bob, Steve!

@pennsyfan Bob, thank you for confirming I was right about what you meant.  I like your suggestion for the upper road.

@RSJB18 Bob, thank you for giving a 3D mock up of your suggestion.  I mocked up something along that lines.  One problem I have is that I want the road making the grade crossings and off the front of the layout to stay to the right of the switch points.

The far right end of the right hopper is at the end of the area for the farm scene. 

I then mocked up Steve's suggestion.

My rendition of Bob's suggestion took up about 6 more inches than how I did Steve's.  That doesn't mean I am going with Steve's.  I will have to ponder it for a while and maybe try some other things. 

What is that mess underneath the layout????  Someone should put curtains or something so it isn't so distracting!!! 

What a hobby! Now you're doing  civil engineering! That's going to be a challenging road to drive.

When you get the curtains up for your pike, you can come and do mine. I've been procrastinating about that for about 5 years. There are no boxes or anything else under the layout, but skirting does really make it look nice.

Looks great Mark!!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

What is that mess underneath the layout????  Someone should put curtains or something so it isn't so distracting!!! 

Mark, you certainly have lots of ideas from this talented group. BTW, I made a temporary curtain to cover your distraction.😉

Gene

Your Railroad your Rules Mark.

Just assisting in the creative process. I had a feeling that you didn't want to encroach on the Farm scene too much.

Whatever you decide on I'm sure will look great.

Bob

Thank you, Myles, RV Junke, Gene, Bob!

Myles, I don't know that I would call it civil engineering.  More like civil 'stumbling'.    Yes, I can think of seeing a road something like it in real life, and I'm trying to place it.  I'm glad I won't be driving that road! 

RV Junke, thank you for checking in!!

Gene, Well I'm glad someone answered my plea!  That skirting looks great!! 

Bob, If it weren't for the switch for the two yard tracks under the town dictating the grade crossing, I could squish everything closer to the town.  That would give a lot more room for either option.  I am going to let those road ideas sit awhile and see where they take me.

I did fit and cut out road sections for the upper grade crossings.  This way, the road can disappear back in the coved corner.  As to the corner, I will have to slide the dryer in the other room out from the window, then I can get in there to work on the corner.  It isn't the most convenient access hatch, but I've done it before.