Blackwater Canyon Line - March 20, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

Thank you, Mike!

Yes, the 'corners' made on the inside of the curved street and the layout edge make for difficult spots to put in buildings.  Of course I could scratch build or kit bash triangular buildings or half buildings, but I don't like the idea.  I think the playground and flagpole look better on the left across from the church than on the right.  I tried them on the right, but didn't like it.  Since I don't have room to have on street parking, a place for parking a few of my excess of cars and trucks seem a good idea.

You are right about there not being much room for houses in the last photograph.  Here is an overhead shot to prove your point. 

I have not known what I would do with that area and just left it while concentrating on other things.  Up until now, I have been parking cars and trucks in the cubby holes under the upper level.  Reconfiguring the track from a twice around over and under to the upper and lower loops shows how I don't need the upper level roadbed to be as wide as I did before.  I could gain about 2 inches in depth by removing a few supports and narrowing the roadbed.  Time will tell if I think it is worth it.  I'm not particularly attached to any of the houses or the Plasticville church, so I may do something totally different.  In the meantime, it is a place to store buildings instead of automobiles. 

Mark, sounds like sawsall time.  You could build on the upper or lower level, or build 2 to 3 inches off the deck to reduce vertical wall height.

Thank you, Jeff!  Yes, the sawsall certainly could come into play.  I do like your idea of building the area up a couple of inches from track level.  Certainly fitting for here in Western Pennsylvania and West Virginia!  The brick embossed roller just came in the mail today, so I have everything I need to start paving brick streets.    I'm thinking of trying some clay on a scrap board first to get the feel for it and see how my painting of the bricks works out.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Jeff!  Yes, the sawsall certainly could come into play.  I do like your idea of building the area up a couple of inches from track level.  Certainly fitting for here in Western Pennsylvania and West Virginia!  The brick embossed roller just came in the mail today, so I have everything I need to start paving brick streets.    I'm thinking of trying some clay on a scrap board first to get the feel for it and see how my painting of the bricks works out.

Mark, just remember roll to about 2mm thickness. If you want to remove it roll it out on a plastic cutting mat and let dry for 12 to 24 hours. Slower drying yields less stress  which makes for a flatter casting. You may need to wet your roller to prevent / minimuze sticking. You can also moisten the surface as it dries to even out the drying stress. If you put it on plywood, it will want to really stick down. Bonus is it will reduce the tendency to surface cup.

Thank you for the tips, Jeff!  I will certainly be following all your suggestions as I start making the streets.  I hope mine end up looking as good as yours. 

I took a little side project yesterday and today since I brought up where to put the houses that don't fit in my town.  I removed the supports and plywood/Homasote roadbed that were abandoned on the other side of the layout when I rearranged the track a couple years ago.  Here are a couple photographs of the area now.  That allows a space of 10 inches from the lower tracks and the support for the upper level.

The diagonal lines on the lower particle board show where I was considering installing a siding early on.  Now I don't recall why I didn't. 

I plopped down a few sections of 1-inch Styrofoam to raise the buildings a couple of inches.  They can sit there for the time being.  I have more important things to do on the town; streets, etc.

Well Mark look at it.thia way, all this talk about your buildings got your mind thinking of more projects! I am sure when your don't with the streets you will have a great idea about the houses!

I'll be watching as I know there is always something to learn!

Mark, amazing how extra space appears when you put some thought into it. It took me awhile to figure out where this section was in your layout. Consider raising the buildings a couple more inches. I think the 'eye' will see a shorter back wall more appealing than a low front wall. Hard to tell without being there.  I've been working slowly on my background buildings. I am going to do the same thing, trying to minimize the 10 inch height difference between the town and the mainline track.   

Thank you, Mike, Jeff!

Mike, yes the streets will come first.  The houses can come later.  In fact, I may find some other buildings I want to put there instead.  I have a scratch build in mind, but need to work out if I have room for it anywhere on the layout. 

Jeff, Yes isn't that the way even with someone's layout you are familiar with.  Recall a few months ago I asked you for some help orienting where you were putting in structures on your layout.  I scrounged up some boxes to raise the buildings.  The blue boxes are too high I think, but they give me the idea.  I think I like the height of the church on the left. 

A forum member contacted me via email with a suggestion for the zig zag switches for the yard access track in the foreground of the above photograph.  The suggestion would straighten the connection to the mainline which is the next track back.  I just need to buy one or possibly two switches.  The existing switches are 042 which I had on hand at the time.  As Mike said, another project to put on the list. 

Mark, i would like to see a dwg of the suggestion. I do not see enough room to do what I imagine is suggested based on the last scarm dwg. I suppose 2 curved switches would work, but not sure that gains you much. Ross' are what 072/054?  I agree the blue boxes are too high - I am thinking 2/3 lower 1/3 upper.  Remember the golden ratio where there are eye pleasing proportions?

This is what I am thinking as an example, although in my case it is 1/3 lower and 2/3 higher although I may raise this more or stagger the heights.  You can see the trolley poles in the upper section. Coming into the photo I will have the elevated trestles to provide service to the engine house further right. To the eye, the elevated trolley will run past the upper windows of the background buildings. If they will fit, I have several unbuilt Downtown Deco buildings which would go well at street level under the elevated track.   A Korber apartment building will go on the upper level.  These two structures are the Korber General Light & Power Office Building cut in half. I always thought it was too thin to be an office building, but as a background building great. Funny the apartment building is the same casting with the corbel section cut off, but with some adds.  Rustoleum primer does not like to stick to this resin. Krylon seems OK.   

No curved switch recommended.   I am the one who emailed Mark the suggestion.   It would likely require some cutting of a "standard" turnout, and the curve leading in from the left, but worth the effort IMHO.   

The 3 - 4 ties and straight section of track leading into the points of the new RH switch will need to be cut off with Dremel tool.  I have modified Ross switches like this several times both curved and straight switches, leave somewhere around a 1/4" inch of straight rail beyond the "Points" or even one full Wooden Tie, like 3/8 - 1/2 inch, lop off the rest. 

Personally, I don't rely on track planning software to do final fitting and track cutting, but before removing anything, I start laying track over the top of what's already there, and I mark the track with masking tape to figure out the optimal places to cut it.   Looks like maybe that's a #4 LH switch on the upper track leading to where the RS Diesel is parked.  I'd see if another #4 or similar LH switch could replace the 042 LH then work your way to the curve.

Ok did not see that, even though I was thinking curved switches in both places. This is what the last plan was. As I also do, things change during the build.  That should be a Ross #4 so there should not be a curve issue mating up with the modified switch.

Thank you, Jeff, Chris!

I don’t have time to pull up the latest Scar drawing that I revised from the one you have, Jeff.  As I told Chris’s, the two 042 switches that make the zig zag Chris cited were an afterthought by me since I had them on hand.  I thought they could make a runaround connection for the yard.  I updated the drawing, but guess I never posted it.  Short cars and the F3’s and RS3’s make it through fine, but the SD9 and Decapod certainly do not.

I didn’t draw out Chris’ suggestion, but made a tracing of an 054 switch, flipped it over and seated it right on the curve in question and pointed towards the switch on the mainline .  Crude, but I think it will work.  I would then be able to run anything I have except the passenger cars, which I wouldn’t be running them from the yard anyway.

Thank you both for the analysis.  I’ll post a capture once I can work out the drawing.

Jeff, Chris, here we go with a crude update on the drawing.  The first screenshot is roughly how the layout is build as of now.

Here is a crude version of what Chris' suggestion could be.  If I replace the 042 LH switch with an 072 RH switch, it should work out.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Jeff, Chris, here we go with a crude update on the drawing.  The first screenshot is roughly how the layout is build as of now.

Here is a crude version of what Chris' suggestion could be.  If I replace the 042 LH switch with an 072 RH switch, it should work out.

Eliminated the S curve. Looks much better Mark.

Actually eliminates 2......

Bob

Hi Mark I am with Bob the second one looks so much better! It's nice that Chris brought this idea to you!

Better than the S.  However the location of the switch on the left would provide space for scenery or an industry. 

Jeff, are you saying to eliminate the switch on the left, and thus make it like the version you shared a few days ago?  If so, you are right.  As it is, I have seldom used that zig zag connection, so maybe less is more.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Jeff, are you saying to eliminate the switch on the left, and thus make it like the version you shared a few days ago?  If so, you are right.  As it is, I have seldom used that zig zag connection, so maybe less is more.

That's a much cleaner look Mark.

Mark, unless I am missing something, if you eliminate the pair of switches, then you don't have a "run around" track to service the "Facing Point" siding for that industry ?    Maybe you have "run around" capability somewhere else nearby that I can't see.   

Thank you for the replies, Dave, Chris.

Dave, it is cleaner and allows for industry on both sides of the track.  A coal dealer, perhaps.

Chris, I was looking at the layout last evening pondering exactly what you asked.  The only way would be setup to push a car in and pull it out.  However, it would be awkward at best.  The run around would let me pull a car in and run around to push it back into the siding.  I'm going to not change anything right now and do some switching to the imaginary industry which I actually haven't done yet.  Yes, the track has probably been in this configuration for 2 years, and I haven't done anything except use it to hold cars.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you for the replies, Dave, Chris.

Dave, it is cleaner and allows for industry on both sides of the track.  A coal dealer, perhaps.

Chris, I was looking at the layout last evening pondering exactly what you asked.  The only way would be setup to push a car in and pull it out.  However, it would be awkward at best.  The run around would let me pull a car in and run around to push it back into the siding.  I'm going to not change anything right now and do some switching to the imaginary industry which I actually haven't done yet.  Yes, the track has probably been in this configuration for 2 years, and I haven't done anything except use it to hold cars.

Good idea it's better to try things out and see how you like it before you start changing things out.

Mark, Dave and all commentors;

Mark's layout is pretty tight so we did not see a good way to do a reasonable run around. The engine would have to be either pulling or pushing depending on the spur being used. There is ability to do a run around using one of the three loop tracks.  It might be possible to add another switch pair on the far south end of the west track pair. Not sure there is enough linear space for the switch pair and provide enough space for the engine and car for the run around operation.

Mark, as far as I can tell when you laid the track you moved the location of the left-left pair of switches up to the "north" end with one switch between two others. You should be able to move that pair back to the original plan on the "west" side. I presumed you had a reason for the relocation. I also did not think you made a 4th loop with this inner portion due to the need for another lift out. 

Mark and the "Committee" -  Here's an idea.   Forget adding the 2 switches and taking up valuable real estate.   

Consider extending that stub siding that shows a "future industry" box under it and add a single LH switch on the dark green line on what looks like the entrance to the penninsula.   It effectively becomes a siding rather than a spur, really doesn't take up any valuable space as the switch I am proposing you add will be on the lower level under the tracks above and across from the rectangle marked "Station"

Two potential advantages, (1) no more track added the area you want to add one or two industries, and (2), the industry or two can be switched from either end eliminating the need for a Run Around.   It's kind a sorta like adding a run around in that it's now a siding.

Depending on what the business/industry is, you could stage up 2-3 empties and move them through filling the cars, with whatever the commodity is.   

Thank you, Mike, Jeff, Chris!

Jeff, you have a good memory.  Perhaps better than mine, because I do not know why I relocated the switch pair.  I do remember deciding I didn't want a third lift up, though it still could be done.  When I wrote I had been looking at the switch pair, I was thinking of what it would take to do another switch pair.  You are right, space is so tight, it would eat up the rest of the straight double track even if I shortened the switches all to the points.

Chris, it's funny you mention extending the track under the station and connecting to the lower main line.  I actually had a switch over there at one time, but it was for a spur that angled into a different area.

I am going to take a video of the areas in question which should make things easier to understand.

Here's a video showing the track as it is now on the layout and a brief description of what I think Jeff and Chris are referring to.  Anyone please comment, not just Jeff and Chris. 

Hi Mark I really like the idea of tieing it into the far track under the station. But I also want you to know that if you wanted to put another scratch built bridge going back to the end of the yard that the actuator is definitely powerful enough. I use mine to lift 3 bridges at one time.

@mike g. posted:

Hi Mark I really like the idea of tying it into the far track under the station. But I also want you to know that if you wanted to put another scratch built bridge going back to the end of the yard that the actuator is definitely powerful enough. I use mine to lift 3 bridges at one time.

Thank you, Mike!  I was thinking that very thing that the actuator could handle it and I could just use a crossarm from the other bridge to lift the third bridge.  It certainly would work, and without a lot of trouble.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Mike!  I was thinking that very thing that the actuator could handle it and I could just use a crossarm from the other bridge to lift the third bridge.  It certainly would work, and without a lot of trouble.

That's what I did, made a 1/2" x 1/2" smooth sanded wood arm. It twist very little and by the time the main bridge is getting close the other bridge should be down or you  can make it so it is.

Mark,  Great job doing the video, it was very helpful and great to hear your voice !    Oh the disconnected world we live in.   

I'd probably double stack crossovers on the straight, leave enough room for 1 freight car so you can run around.   It's tight over there on the main where you had a switch at one time, plus it's right up against the lift bridge.   Plus if you provide the run around in the "yard" area, you don't have to foul the main to switch cars, do facing point moves etc.   

Several times I was shocked after making a CAD layout drawing change to an area on the plan that looked like there's room to do something, and then I would go down to the layout, and start trying to make what I had drawn work, and it was like where did all the room go ?  "Is my drawing wrong ?,"   "How could this have seemed do-able on the RR track software ????"   

Great work, Mark and everyone!

Peter

Thank you, Mike, Chris, Peter!

Mike, it would be easy to put in another simple bridge but at the other end, I would have to either put in another switch or connect to the existing front yard track which would mean to use that run around, I would have to clear that yard track of any cars.  Another switch could be put in, but I'm thinking I like the second crossover near the existing one better.

Chris, as I mentioned, I'm leaning towards double stack crossovers on the straight.  I have the Caboose Industries manual throws on all the switches that are easy to reach, so I would just need the the switches and two more throws.  I'm not going to buy anything yet however.  I want to get at the brick streets project.

You are right about how the layout looks smaller than it does on the drawing.  I thought I had room for more or larger buildings, but it isn't so.  It can be disappointing and frustrating at times, but I am glad for what I do have.

Thank you for all the comments, suggestions, and critiques everyone!!

I have made two sections of brick street from the NARA clay.  I didn't apply enough pressure with the roller on the first section which made the brick outlines not as pronounced as they could have been.  It also was wavy, to the point of being rather washboard.  On the second, I built a simple frame to rest a rolling pin on to roll the clay flat before using the brick roller.  That came out better.  I did notice on the second one that sections of the clay did rise after rolling.  Of course, I don't expect the street to be flat.  The prototype ones here in Butler have lots of dips, some far worse than others. 

Yesterday, I saw a photograph of men working finishing building a brick street here in Butler.  The woman who shared it said her grandfather had worked doing that between 1905 and 1915. 

This is the second try still on the frame.

The first try is on the left.  It is noticeable that the bricks aren't as pronounced.

Here they are laying on the layout.  The second one is in the front.  That used up one brick of NARA clay.  I still have 5 bricks, so that will be plenty even if I decide to not uses some of the first tries.

On another note, I decided to do away with the two 042 switches discussed at the top of this page, and install a pair of Ross #4 RH switches like the #4 LH switches that are at the yard lead and this spur.  I preordered them with my LHS at $10 less than other vendors were asking.  So that project is now on the back burner awaiting parts.

Looks good Mark, are you doing a curved street as I think that would look cool on your layout!

On another note, I am glad you decided to change the switches out.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I have made two sections of brick street from the NARA clay.  I didn't apply enough pressure with the roller on the first section which made the brick outlines not as pronounced as they could have been.  It also was wavy, to the point of being rather washboard.  On the second, I built a simple frame to rest a rolling pin on to roll the clay flat before using the brick roller.  That came out better.  I did notice on the second one that sections of the clay did rise after rolling.  Of course, I don't expect the street to be flat.  The prototype ones here in Butler have lots of dips, some far worse than others.

Yesterday, I saw a photograph of men working finishing building a brick street here in Butler.  The woman who shared it said her grandfather had worked doing that between 1905 and 1915.

This is the second try still on the frame.

The first try is on the left.  It is noticeable that the bricks aren't as pronounced.

Here they are laying on the layout.  The second one is in the front.  That used up one brick of NARA clay.  I still have 5 bricks, so that will be plenty even if I decide to not uses some of the first tries.

On another note, I decided to do away with the two 042 switches discussed at the top of this page, and install a pair of Ross #4 RH switches like the #4 LH switches that are at the yard lead and this spur.  I preordered them with my LHS at $10 less than other vendors were asking.  So that project is now on the back burner awaiting parts.

You're doing good Mark. It's nice that you found a real life connection.

Nice work Mark. I have to ask where did you get the brick roller. Really cool idea

Mark when you make the brick imprint, either dunk the roller in water or sprinkle some on the clay. The extra moisture helps the clay release from the rollers. Another option is to let the flat clay rest for 10 to 30 minutes to let the surface dry some before you imprint. That will also reduce the tackiness. Glad you are getting lots of hits on the clay streets.  If you decide to do a curved street keeping even pressure for the imprint and rolling and turning at the same time  -- thats some trial and error. But it can be done. You are trying to roll one end slightly faster than the other, good thing clay slips.

Thank you, Mike, Bob, poconotrain, Jeff!

Mike, I do plan to make the curved street brick, but need some more practice first.

Bob, yes it is good.  I knew the streets were 'paved' with brick in the early 1900s, but never knew of a connection to someone who actually did the work to indicate during what actual time period.

poconotrains, I bought mine from the source @ScoutingDad gave me "bought the roller off etsy from a vendor G28MachinistCrafts"  My wife has an Etsy account, so I bought it there.

Jeff, I did wet the roller on both tries, but did not wet the clay.  I saw the clay was sticking as the moisture went away, but hadn't prepared with more water at hand and just kept rolling.  That is a good suggestion to let it dry a little before using the roller.  Yes, that will be a new trial to get it right rolling the curved street.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you, Mike, Bob, poconotrain, Jeff!

Mike, I do plan to make the curved street brick, but need some more practice first.

Bob, yes it is good.  I knew the streets were 'paved' with brick in the early 1900s, but never knew of a connection to someone who actually did the work to indicate during what actual time period.

poconotrains, I bought mine from the source @ScoutingDad gave me "bought the roller off etsy from a vendor G28MachinistCrafts"  My wife has an Etsy account, so I bought it there.

Jeff, I did wet the roller on both tries, but did not wet the clay.  I saw the clay was sticking as the moisture went away, but hadn't prepared with more water at hand and just kept rolling.  That is a good suggestion to let it dry a little before using the roller.  Yes, that will be a new trial to get it right rolling the curved street.

Mark  @Scouting Dad Jeff, I have questions about the use of clay for a tunnel portal. I recently advised my son to make a tunnel portal out of plaster of Paris by making a cardboard mold and filling it and the use a hobby knife to make the mortar lines for building blocks. Followed by a wire brush to remove the sprue like plaster. Would the clay work standing up? Is there a roller for building blocks? Thanks

Bob, could you with clay, yes, would you want to, maybe not. Plaster, foam, drywall, wood, masonitw can all be used to make a portal. There are so many good portals out there, why not buy one? Save the time for the things you cannot find or are too pricy for the budget. There are all kinds of rollers out there for making just about any surface you might want out of clay. There are even foam rollers. 

Thank you, Bob, Jeff!

Bob, Jeff has a point.  I don't know that I could ever make a portal with the detail of this commercial foam one.  However, I did watch a Joey Ricard video last evening of how to make a stone pier from a piece of extruded Styrofoam.

As Jeff mentioned foam rollers, I wondered what the one I am using for clay would do on foam.  If I could exert more pressure, it wouldn't be too bad.