I would guess that the designer of the P5a (modified) would have been J.V.B. Duer since he was the lead engineer of the electification program for the PRR.
Seeing that the Pennsy was run by the engineers in its best years, that would be my first thought.
My second thought would be George Gibbs, who consulted heavily with the PRR during this period and was the one who suggested that PRR borrow a NH EP-3, which was the motor the GG1 was based on.
That is a great question. Thanks for posing it!
Thank you for reminding me of George Gibbs!
I had distant cousins that were father and son and were both were consulting engineers for Gibbs & Hill, the company that was the electrical engineering firm for the great Pennsy electrification. Unfortunately, they are no longer with us and I was too young to ask intelligent questions.
Oh well!
I had distant cousins that were father and son and were both were consulting engineers for Gibbs & Hill, the company that was the electrical engineering firm for the great Pennsy electrification. Unfortunately, they are no longer with us and I was too young to ask intelligent questions.
Oh well!
Seems to me there was yet another vendor, with a somewhat
unusual name, who offered a scale GG1. Late 90's or early 2000's. No longer
in business like the others. They made other items
but can't remember what.
Anybody know who it was?
Joe O'Loughlin
unusual name, who offered a scale GG1. Late 90's or early 2000's. No longer
in business like the others. They made other items
but can't remember what.
Anybody know who it was?
Joe O'Loughlin
There also is the House of Duddy GG-1. Though I guess it is 2 rail O scale. The website shows a FF-2, E-44, GG-1, EF-4. http://www.houseofduddy.com/
First off as Fish and a few others said here is my thanks for time well spent on posting this. Billville does not have cat power yet but I had a great time riding in GG-1's while working vacation relief position on the New Havens electric side for ten years. It was a shame what PC did in the end to such glorious engines with a splash of black paint and a few white letters.
For some that would wonder as part of my job I would attach clamp-on amp probes with peak holding features on the leading impedance pot connections so we could see how the track circuit and pots were behaving under load on the power side. Drawing over 2000 Amps at 11,000 volts could cause "lightning like" damage to the Signal System. This would occur if a "pot" got out of balance in terms of currant flow. A mismatch of ten percent from one rail to the other would "swamp" the special track circuits with 25 cycle power seeking "ground" and cause the signals to dump in the engineers face [at best] or burn up instruments at worst. It was common to see readings climb to 480 amps on each of the 2 pot leads being tested. As the engine was approaching while getting up to speed they drew the most power. GG-1's were powerful and very graceful in motion...
For some that would wonder as part of my job I would attach clamp-on amp probes with peak holding features on the leading impedance pot connections so we could see how the track circuit and pots were behaving under load on the power side. Drawing over 2000 Amps at 11,000 volts could cause "lightning like" damage to the Signal System. This would occur if a "pot" got out of balance in terms of currant flow. A mismatch of ten percent from one rail to the other would "swamp" the special track circuits with 25 cycle power seeking "ground" and cause the signals to dump in the engineers face [at best] or burn up instruments at worst. It was common to see readings climb to 480 amps on each of the 2 pot leads being tested. As the engine was approaching while getting up to speed they drew the most power. GG-1's were powerful and very graceful in motion...
Sand Patch Tom: According to your vintage photos, it looks like it took three EMD E units to replace one GG-1!
paul m.
paul m.
Thanks Jonathon, excellent read and very thorough review. The only G that I have is a Lionel 2360 from 1958, but the G's have always been my favorite engine.
I can still remember my father coming in from a conference in Washington back in the eary 70's. I remember the ominous-looking G leaning inwards above me while standing on the platform at the Metuchen, NJ train station.
I can still remember my father coming in from a conference in Washington back in the eary 70's. I remember the ominous-looking G leaning inwards above me while standing on the platform at the Metuchen, NJ train station.
JD-Train said,
Hi Jim! I shot a few photos for you with 15" K-Line Congressional streamlined cars with a scale MTH GG1. I think they look ok together, especially when your only other option is to run a traditional GG1 with them. The traditional GG1 is very nostalgic but comes across very toy like! I think the market is ripe for a longer 0-31 GG1 that has a better semi-scale appearance to it. I am like you, before going all scale I use to run scale MTH GG1's with my 15" cars, this definitely makes the better looking train out of the two options available!
The K-Line 15" streamliner cars look best with a scale GG1 out of the 15" cars available as they are scale in height and width and are only short in length.
Traditional GG1's are just toooooo toy like in appearence!
Traditional GG1's look short even with 15" cars!
Tom
quote:How long are the scale GG1's? Could I run them with a string of 15" aluminum cars or would they just look silly?
Hi Jim! I shot a few photos for you with 15" K-Line Congressional streamlined cars with a scale MTH GG1. I think they look ok together, especially when your only other option is to run a traditional GG1 with them. The traditional GG1 is very nostalgic but comes across very toy like! I think the market is ripe for a longer 0-31 GG1 that has a better semi-scale appearance to it. I am like you, before going all scale I use to run scale MTH GG1's with my 15" cars, this definitely makes the better looking train out of the two options available!
The K-Line 15" streamliner cars look best with a scale GG1 out of the 15" cars available as they are scale in height and width and are only short in length.
Traditional GG1's are just toooooo toy like in appearence!
Traditional GG1's look short even with 15" cars!
Tom
Tom,
for the pictures!!!
I had been accumulating stuff for about 4 years until I got my layout up and running last Summer.
I had the K-Line KCC semi-scale GG1 that I was very keen to run. When I took it out of the box, and put it on the track to actually run it, it just looked so stubby. It didn't have the graceful lines of the real thing! So, off to eBay it went.
With your pictures and Jonathan's, I think that I will get the Williams scale GG1, as it fits both my layout and my budget! I'll go ahead and run them with the 15" K-Line cars I have now, and maybe later buy a set of larger cars (I'll keep the 15" cars to run behind my scale K4).
Jim
for the pictures!!!I had been accumulating stuff for about 4 years until I got my layout up and running last Summer.
I had the K-Line KCC semi-scale GG1 that I was very keen to run. When I took it out of the box, and put it on the track to actually run it, it just looked so stubby. It didn't have the graceful lines of the real thing! So, off to eBay it went.
With your pictures and Jonathan's, I think that I will get the Williams scale GG1, as it fits both my layout and my budget! I'll go ahead and run them with the 15" K-Line cars I have now, and maybe later buy a set of larger cars (I'll keep the 15" cars to run behind my scale K4).
Jim
Great photos and ghreat descriptions. Thank you very much Jonathan.
Tom,
The 15 inch cars do not really look bad at all with the scale GG1
The 15 inch cars do not really look bad at all with the scale GG1
quote:Originally posted by jd-train:
Could I run them with a string of 15" aluminum cars or would they just look silly?
Jim
To my eyes that would look very silly. I find the appearance of a GG1 pulling less than 20-inch cars very unrealist and it is not pleasing to my eyes.
Based on Sand Patch Tom's pictures, the scale GG1 looks like it's pulling a string of Air Stream RV trailers. I used to run a scale GG1 pulling 11 Williams 18-inch passenger cars. That looked like a GG1 pulling highway busses down the track.
That practice is not for me. But to each his own.
quote:What is surprising is looking at the photos, all look the same at first glance then you start noticing the smaller details.
The thing that I notice is that there is quite a bit of difference in the body contours near the ends. Which one do you think is closest to being correct?
quote:Originally posted by Big Jim:quote:What is surprising is looking at the photos, all look the same at first glance then you start noticing the smaller details.
The thing that I notice is that there is quite a bit of difference in the body contours near the ends. Which one do you think is closest to being correct?
Interesting question. Here are some photos of the prototype the road numbers are based off of. What do you think?
GG1 4925
GG1 4925 PC Version
GG1 4840 Conrail Version
Johnathan, which is your favorite O scale model? Do you know where I can find a Lionel green single stripe model at a good price?
Great thread! I've been wanting the scale Wlliams for awhile, I'm just worried it won't swing through my tunnel on a turn.
quote:Originally posted by ChessieMan:
Johnathan, which is your favorite O scale model? Do you know where I can find a Lionel green single stripe model at a good price?
ChessieMan - I'm almost embarrassed to say that I won mine on Ebay for less than $500.00. That is the place to find them now as Lionel only cataloged them from one year as far as I know.
A fair price for one would seem to be in the $500-$600 range and they do appear on Ebay from time to time. I have not seen any in this scheme recently.
I have to say that my favorites are the Lionel and the Weaver for looks. The Weaver horn though has to be the worst horn EVER in model railroad history. If I could afford a Kohs though, that would be my outright favorite.
In terms of running for club activity or extended time, you cannot beat a Williams though. Since my original post, I've added two more to the fleet, a Williams 5 stripe with sound and a Conrail MTH proto-1. The Williams with sound works surprisingly well for it's age.
PRRfan - if you can widen the clearance, the Williams will negotiate an 0-42 curve most of the time. Since the swing points are centered on the drive wheels, it does have a knack for swinging through some interesting curves.
At the HTOS layout, somebody had a GG1 motor on one loop (scale) and I had an NH EF-4 on the other.
I did not realize the G was that LONG!
And Williams are like Timex watches or the battery bunny....just keeps ticking/going....
I did not realize the G was that LONG!
And Williams are like Timex watches or the battery bunny....just keeps ticking/going....
quote:
Tom
Tom, those passenger cars laying on their sides and on their wheels side by side remind me of photos I've seen of streetcar systems being scrapped...
Too useful a thread to leave buried in the past, so...BUMP!
I have a Williams scale GG! and it is super for the money.
quote:Originally posted by GG-1 4877:quote:Originally posted by Big Jim:quote:What is surprising is looking at the photos, all look the same at first glance then you start noticing the smaller details.
The thing that I notice is that there is quite a bit of difference in the body contours near the ends. Which one do you think is closest to being correct?
Interesting question. Here are some photos of the prototype the road numbers are based off of. What do you think?
GG1 4925
GG1 4925 PC Version
GG1 4840 Conrail Version
I think Lionel came the closest to capturing the correct contour, with Weaver second. Regardless of fidelity to prototype, Williams is the best value by far.
I've got to get a Lionel model for myself. However, I am not buying that ugly silver version.
G--What a great thread!
BTW, Williams (WBB) will be making scale G motors with CORRECT numbers!
BTW, Williams (WBB) will be making scale G motors with CORRECT numbers!
Ans even if you do not have PRR stuff, a G would look great in front of a Mail and Express train!
A few more scale color schemes for anyone interested!
GG1 4935: Originally nothing special about this one other than it being one of the last to be built (4938 the last one). However, in 1977 some serious railfans and Amtrak got together to restore this road number to it's original paint scheme. Amtrak did the mechanical work and helped with the paint job. It ran in regular service after a re-christening by none other than Raymond Loewy himself. In ran regularly until 1981 and was occasionally seen in NJDOT service on the NY&LB north of South Amboy. This is a great model for those who want to run a GG1 in PRR colors behind an Amtrak train. When pulling HEP equipped cars, there was a converted baggage behind the motor that provied the head end power. It was also teamed with NJT 4877 on the farewell to steam heat run on the NEC in 1982.
GG1 4866: This was one of three painted to go with the new Budd Congressional sets which arrived in 1952. The other road numbers were 4872 and 4880. Sadly, none of these road numbers were preserved and 4872 was only scrapped within the last 5 years. This scheme did not last long as the rust tended to streak on the silver paint. We all know how much the PRR valued maintenance and all at that point!
Only two GG1s received this paint scheme and 4911 was not one of them! Shame on you Weaver! 4907 and 4916 were painted for a while in the single stripe tuscan scheme. As a side note, when Russian Premier Kruschev visited President Eisenhower, he was apparently very upset that the two GG1s that pulled their special train were not these two! He was hoping for the 'red' ones. True story!
GG1 4800: While this is not an accurate version of "Rivets", 4800 was the only GG1 to receive Conrail blue colors. This MTH version comes close to representing the feel of the original though. As you might recall, the 4800 was painted in 1976 to Bicentennial colors and you either loved or hated the scheme. At the end of 1976, it received the blue 'dip job' that so many locomotives hastilly received. GG1s were mostly taken out of service by 1977, so it did not run long in this scheme. All other CR GG1s were painted PC black with small CR stenciling on the carbody or retained Brunswick screen with a single stripe with the CR stencil. Sadly, outside of 4800 and 4856 (Harrisburg) none of the Conrail units (mainly the early production ones) have been preserved as these were delivered with cast pilots in lieu of the drop coupler pilots of later models.
I was at the PRR railroad museum a few weeks back. As soon as I edit some photos, I'll print current pictures of the 4935 and the 4800. Currently 4800 has been repainted in solid brunswick, but I hear it is getting prepared for some additional restoration work.
Had to correct the last number for the Silver one - sorry for any mis-information!
GG1 4935: Originally nothing special about this one other than it being one of the last to be built (4938 the last one). However, in 1977 some serious railfans and Amtrak got together to restore this road number to it's original paint scheme. Amtrak did the mechanical work and helped with the paint job. It ran in regular service after a re-christening by none other than Raymond Loewy himself. In ran regularly until 1981 and was occasionally seen in NJDOT service on the NY&LB north of South Amboy. This is a great model for those who want to run a GG1 in PRR colors behind an Amtrak train. When pulling HEP equipped cars, there was a converted baggage behind the motor that provied the head end power. It was also teamed with NJT 4877 on the farewell to steam heat run on the NEC in 1982.
GG1 4866: This was one of three painted to go with the new Budd Congressional sets which arrived in 1952. The other road numbers were 4872 and 4880. Sadly, none of these road numbers were preserved and 4872 was only scrapped within the last 5 years. This scheme did not last long as the rust tended to streak on the silver paint. We all know how much the PRR valued maintenance and all at that point!
Only two GG1s received this paint scheme and 4911 was not one of them! Shame on you Weaver! 4907 and 4916 were painted for a while in the single stripe tuscan scheme. As a side note, when Russian Premier Kruschev visited President Eisenhower, he was apparently very upset that the two GG1s that pulled their special train were not these two! He was hoping for the 'red' ones. True story!
GG1 4800: While this is not an accurate version of "Rivets", 4800 was the only GG1 to receive Conrail blue colors. This MTH version comes close to representing the feel of the original though. As you might recall, the 4800 was painted in 1976 to Bicentennial colors and you either loved or hated the scheme. At the end of 1976, it received the blue 'dip job' that so many locomotives hastilly received. GG1s were mostly taken out of service by 1977, so it did not run long in this scheme. All other CR GG1s were painted PC black with small CR stenciling on the carbody or retained Brunswick screen with a single stripe with the CR stencil. Sadly, outside of 4800 and 4856 (Harrisburg) none of the Conrail units (mainly the early production ones) have been preserved as these were delivered with cast pilots in lieu of the drop coupler pilots of later models.
I was at the PRR railroad museum a few weeks back. As soon as I edit some photos, I'll print current pictures of the 4935 and the 4800. Currently 4800 has been repainted in solid brunswick, but I hear it is getting prepared for some additional restoration work.
Had to correct the last number for the Silver one - sorry for any mis-information!
Now, does 4876 have a sound chip as it enters Washington Union?
quote:Originally posted by DominicMazoch:
Now, does 4876 have a sound chip as it enters Washington Union?
Maybe that's the reason mine is not currently running?What would the proto sound be for that one? "Now entering the basement on track 13 .... ".
Jonathan,
What about the web stripe paint scheme?
What about the web stripe paint scheme?
Here's a version of a Penn Central GG1 that I don't recall being made by any of the model train manufacturers:
Look closely at the "PC" logo.
quote:Originally posted by BillP:
Jonathan,
What about the web stripe paint scheme?
Bill I don't have a version of that one yet! If I get it, it will likely be a Williams. I've already pre-ordered two 4800's from 3rd Rail and can't justify another ....... wait, maybe I can find a way to work that out?
Does anyone know if the 3rd Rail version will have the roof top conduit and the dome number boards top and center on the ends?
Scott?
quote:Originally posted by AlanH:
Here's a version of a Penn Central GG1 that I don't recall being made by any of the model train manufacturers:
Look closely at the "PC" logo.
Alan,
Actually that was a fairly common 'early PC' scheme for a number of GG1s circa 1968 and 1969. The all white won out I'm sure because of cost. You're right I haven't see an O version of that yet! PC had a few interesting variations including the blue "American Railroads" paint scheme of 1969 on 4902.
Also, I have not seen many of the Amtrak schemes done. White Helvetica on the single stripe brunswick motors, the savings bond G, a Lionel JLC red, white and silver with the Farr filters or the black PC colors with Amtrak written out on the sides.
Great comparison(s)!
Jonathan,
The plan is for the Sunset 4899 and 4800 engines to have the detailing peculiar to both road numbers.
Regarding another earlier post you made on this topic about the silver with red stripe engines, were they not intended for the Seaboard's trains such as the Silver Meteor and Silver Star, hence only 3 engines painted that way? I used to see these silver GG1's pulling the SAL trains through Baltimore frequently.
The 5 stripe tuscan locomotives were painted that way for the Congressional and Senator in 1952 and necessitated at least 4 engines painted thusly. I have seen conflicting reports as to how many were originally painted tuscan 5 stripe in 1952 but it was at least 4.
Your thoughts?
The plan is for the Sunset 4899 and 4800 engines to have the detailing peculiar to both road numbers.
Regarding another earlier post you made on this topic about the silver with red stripe engines, were they not intended for the Seaboard's trains such as the Silver Meteor and Silver Star, hence only 3 engines painted that way? I used to see these silver GG1's pulling the SAL trains through Baltimore frequently.
The 5 stripe tuscan locomotives were painted that way for the Congressional and Senator in 1952 and necessitated at least 4 engines painted thusly. I have seen conflicting reports as to how many were originally painted tuscan 5 stripe in 1952 but it was at least 4.
Your thoughts?
I also want to thank you for a great job. I grew up in Pennsylvania with the G's. Today I run a great many under live wire on my layout. Again, great job.
I also want to express thanks for the great effort you have put in to this posting, Jonathan.
quote:Originally posted by rheil:
Jonathan,
The plan is for the Sunset 4899 and 4800 engines to have the detailing peculiar to both road numbers.
Regarding another earlier post you made on this topic about the silver with red stripe engines, were they not intended for the Seaboard's trains such as the Silver Meteor and Silver Star, hence only 3 engines painted that way? I used to see these silver GG1's pulling the SAL trains through Baltimore frequently.
The 5 stripe tuscan locomotives were painted that way for the Congressional and Senator in 1952 and necessitated at least 4 engines painted thusly. I have seen conflicting reports as to how many were originally painted tuscan 5 stripe in 1952 but it was at least 4.
Your thoughts?
As I understand it, the silver ones were painted for Congressional service orginally, but as Pennsy practice was to run any passenger geared motor with any train, it would completely make sense that the through Seaboard trains would draw a silver one on occassion as they never ran to Harrisburg or Enola during their silver years.
As to the 5 stripe tuscan red motors, I know of at least 10 that ended up in that scheme and they were the original power for the 1952 Budd sets. In 1952 4908-4913 were painted that scheme and in 1953 4876, 4856, 4857 and 4929 got the tuscan scheme as well.
4877 doesn't really count as it was brunswick during its entire PRR career and only painted Tuscan by NJ Transit in 1982. I understand that at the conclusion of its current restoration effort it will again wear brunswick green.
As to finally seeing a correct set of Congo cars with sqaure end observations and all would be living in PRR heaven .... Hint, hint ....
Of course you would have to make the 4999 accurate. I guess I should have suspected nothing less. How much time do I have before payment is due on those, I may have to rethink my position and add one more to my pre-order ...
Jonathan,
Do you add command to the Williams versions?
I have upgraded 4 of them to command and like the results.
Do you add command to the Williams versions?
I have upgraded 4 of them to command and like the results.
And now for a GG1 trivia question.
Which road number had the Faively pantograph installed in the 60's to test it out? A "Great Job!" to the one who answers first!
Which road number had the Faively pantograph installed in the 60's to test it out? A "Great Job!" to the one who answers first!
quote:Originally posted by BillP:
Jonathan,
Do you add command to the Williams versions?
I have upgraded 4 of them to command and like the results.
Bill,
I surprise even myself when I admit that I'm still a 'conventional' person! I have so many conventional locos that I can't justify the cost of upgrading them all at this point. I am still holding out for a 'universal' standard, so I may have the hands on the throttle for quite a long time. Since all these models share similar components, I would see how command would be a pretty easy fit into the carbody. Do you add sound too and if so, who do you recommend?
This thread has really been informative. I have Lionels 4925 and 4876. i had the MTH first scale GG1. The deep tuscan color was very atractive. The battery problems were not. So, it was traded.
