Scale GG1 Comparison - GG1s live on!

quote:

Originally posted by GG-1 4877:
Good Afternoon (AZ Time).

I took some time to get some photos together to compare the various manufacturers of scale GG1s....
...
I apologize for the length of this and I hope there is something useful for you in here!

Jonathan,You should not have apologized for the length of your generous review. In fact, I hope Rich and/or Allan see this and consider presenting an expanded version of it in OGR. That way, more hobbysts than we can be so informed and able to preserve this valuable insight. Thank you very much.
Frank

Jonathan, I agree very much with Moonson. Great review. Thanks a lot. Beertrain

Jonathan, this mean you like GG-1's?
Just a guess. Don

quote:

Originally posted by scale rail:

Jonathan, this mean you like GG-1's?

Just a guess.

Don

No, he doesn't.     He likes GG1's!   (no hypen between the "G" and "1").  
 

quote:

Originally posted by AlanH:

quote:

Originally posted by scale rail:

Jonathan, this mean you like GG-1's?

Just a guess.

Don

No, he doesn't.     He likes GG1's!   (no hypen between the "G" and "1").  
 

Alan,

You astutely pointed out something that I didn't know until I got on this forum and after I registered my screen name! Of course I have corrected this situation now ... sorry for the reposted image!



Don, my wife nearly accused me of having an affair with 4935 when I was at the PRR musuem in Strasburg at the end of June. She thinks it's more of an obsession.

quote:

Originally posted by GG-1 4877:

Alan,

You astutely pointed out something that I didn't know until I got on this forum and after I registered my screen name!     Of course I have corrected this situation now ... sorry for the reposted image!

Hey, welcome to the club.     I'd been corrected more than once...     until it finally sunk in!!  

Ya just gotta like those   GG-1's             ... oops     I mean GG1's !!!  
 
                                       
 

I just learned more about the GG1 in 10 minutes than in the last 40 years! Thanks Jonathan for a great post!

Jonathan, your plate has the last four numbers to my wife's cell phone. What gives? Anyway, why not call it a GG-One? Don

quote:

Originally posted by scale rail:
Jonathan, your plate has the last four numbers to my wife's cell phone. What gives? Anyway, why not call it a GG-One? Don

Believe it or not I saw another AZ plate last week with PRR GG1. It even had five stripes across the tailgate and a PRR logo in the center.

As to the cell phone number? I've never been San Rafeal ... I swear!

I did just pick up my architectural license in California this spring though ..

To complement this great thread, I thought I would post links to photographs of two very historic GG1's taken by me. The 4879, shown crossing the Raritan River Bridge into Perth Amboy on 8/23/82, was assigned to Train 3323 on 10/29/83, the last revenue trip powered by a G. Having been an NJCL commuter at the time with 3323 being my regular evening train, yours truly had the great privilege to be one of the 4879's last passengers. Note the PRR P70 coach bringing up the markers in the photograph.

www.rr-fallenflags.org/njdot/njt4879crc.jpg

The 4882, pictured eastbound at South Amboy on 5/9/81, was the last G to operate under its own power when it towed two other G's back to the shop following completion of NJ Transit's Matawan headquartered retirement bash for the locomotives on 10/29/83. The class was officially stricken from NJT's roster the following Monday.

www.rr-fallenflags.org/njdot/njt4882crc.jpg

Enjoy,

Bob

Bob,

Where is the "Jersey Shore Commuters Club" car these days? I remember seeing it a few times during my youth in the early 80's on the NY&LB. Hopefully safely in storage until NJ finally gets their museum built in a thousand years or so.

Thanks for your pictures. At the end of this thread maybe we publish a book called the "OGR Guide to GG1s".

Hi, Jonathan.

The 1734 is presently in the URHS collection. Unfortunately, it, along with the famous 4879, is included on the URHS' list of pieces being offered to other organizations. The 4879 is in particularly bad condition and quite possibly beyond restoration at this point.

Your idea regarding a GG1 book is a good idea. Perhaps we can sell the idea to OGR management. Heaven knows we can come up with enough narrative and photographic material to fill a moderately priced softcover volume. I suspect such a book would prove to be quite popular within the three rail community.

Regards,

Bob

Joathan, waiting for the answer to your trivia question. I thought I knew most of the GG1 trivia answers but the Faively pantograph question is a great one. I would assume it was tested on the run to New Haven but honestly I don't have a clue. Great Post. Jerry

Jonathan, I saw a guy in a dark green outfit with gold stripes sneaking out my back yard the other night. He had a hat that looked like a pantograph. Could that be YOU? Don

A G with a faraday pantograph:

If X is a whole number, then:

4799 < X < 4840 !!!!!

For those who have the MTH Railking Penn Central GG-1 the nose on the front of that GG-1 has the red P and white C but does not have the red P on the sides. I wonder if MTH comes out with the next set of GG-1's if they will do a Penn Central version with the red P on the sides? I would like to see it done for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Rubin:
Joathan, waiting for the answer to your trivia question. I thought I knew most of the GG1 trivia answers but the Faively pantograph question is a great one. I would assume it was tested on the run to New Haven but honestly I don't have a clue. Great Post. Jerry

Jerry,

The answer is GG1 4899. It happened during the later PRR years (post 56 at least as it is shown in my photograph pulling the Keystone cars through North Philadelphia. I dug it out of Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940s & 1950's" which is all color and a wonderful resource for that era.

Interestly enough, it was only the rear pantograph that was substituted. I think it must have been replaced to the original type at some point as there are not a lot of photos of it with this configuration. Interesting variation for someone who has the interest in modeling it!

I am surprised we have not seen a scale Keystone set from MTH considering how much Pennsy they produce. Hmmm...another thread for another day.

Jonathan,

I used ElectricRR Cruise Commander Combos which give you cruise control and sound. Although the sound is a bit sparse when compared to the JLC GG1 sounds. Just Bell, Horn and while running a random compressor going off. I guess they figure the hum of your can motor is the running sounds.

For a little extra you can add two electro-couplers and complete the package.

After install you wind up with directional lighting as well.

For me the most difficult part of the install was drilling two holes in the bottom of the metal frame for putting in the run/prog switch. The main board just attached where the GG1 e-unit was.

Jonathan, I have all of Don's books, I'll dig mine out and take a look. Thought you might be interested in this article since I get this question all the time from folks who ride the non electric lines to Newark Penn Station and then change to Corridor trains to go into NYP. The third rail only works on two tracks for Amtrak in NYP to allow them to run trains up the west side of the city to Montreal. No third rail in the tunnels west. Regards, Jerry

July 6, 2008
Bombardier lands NJ Transit dual-power locomotive contract
After a long development process, New Jersey Transit is expected to award a $325.42 million contract ($309.92 million plus 5% for contingencies) to Bombardier Transportation for 26 dual-power (diesel/a.c. catenary, also known as "electric-diesel") locomotives at its July 9 board meeting. The contract includes spare parts and is "subject to the availability of funds," according to NJT's board agenda.

The new-technology locomotives fall under NJT's $1.29 billion Fiscal Year 2009 capital program. They will replace the oldest units in the agency's fleet, some of which are 40 years old. The procurement is part of NJT's ongoing rolling stock modernization program, which also includes 326 Bombardier MultiLevel commuter railcars, 27 Bombardier ALP-46 electric locomotives, 110 electric multiple-units, and 1,365 new buses.

"The purchase of dual-powered locomotives is a cost-effective solution for operating in both electrified and non-electrified territory," NJT's board agenda item states. "Dual-powered locomotives will provide the flexibility to operate throughout the entire system as needed" and "will also allow NJT to develop operational experience with dual-power capability in anticipation of the Access to the Region's Core project (Trans-Hudson Express Tunnel), which is designed to provide one-seat, direct rail service to New York City."

Traditional dual-mode (diesel/third-rail-electric) propulsion has been around for quite some time in North America, but dual-power rolling stock that combines a.c. catenary with diesel propulsion has, until now, never been seriously attempted here. For at least the past two years, NJT and Montreal's AMT (Agence Metropolitaine de Transport) have been collaborating on workable, cost-effective dual-power equipment to provide passengers with one-seat rides between electrified and non-electrified territory. NJT already operates services where a transfer is required; AMT plans to construct new lines that feed into an existing electrified line.

STV, Inc. provided engineering assistance to NJT and AMT on the dual-power locomotives. These locomotives, which will cost about $12 million each, are designed to satisfy several of NJT's operating constraints. Among these are Amtrak's Northeast Corridor tunnel clearances (the locked-down-pantograph height in the Hudson River tunnels is 14 feet 7 inches), carbody space (no more than 75 feet long), noise levels, EPA emissions compliance (Tier II, with Tier III coming up in 2010), performance, and"”most problematic"”weight. Amtrak's maximum locomotive weight on the Northeast Corridor is 288,000 pounds gross rail load for speeds above 79 mph.

The challenge has been to fit a diesel power plant and electrical transformer into one carbody within those parameters. How do you distribute weight on four axles (NJT's preference), provide good adhesion on grades, and not be off the charts on curving forces? One way is to reduce unsprung mass by suspending the traction motors on the trucks, not the axles (this is done with the Alstom Transport PL42AC diesel and Bombardier ALP46 electric). As for the diesel engine, a traditional 16- or 12-cylinder low-speed (900 rpm) diesel is too heavy. A high-speed (1,800 rpm) diesel is much lighter yet just as powerful, but its components will have a much higher wear rate. The solution is utilizing not one but two engine/generator sets, with computerized engine management that equalizes engine service hours.

AMT expects to order as many as 20 dual-power locomotives in its five-year capital plan. This agency has the same operating constraints as NJT, namely, the three-mile-long tunnel on the 25Kv-electrified Deux Montagnes Line, which serves Montreal's Central Station. AMT plans to connect the non-electrified Blainville Line to the Deux Montagnes Line just outside the tunnel, and construct the new, non-electrified Repentigny-Mascouche Line, which will feed into the Deux Montages at Mont-Royal.

The development of a dual mode locomotive is welcomed news for riders of the North Jersey Coast Line. Such motive power will make a single seat ride between Bay Head and New York Penn Station a reality.

Original third rail installed by PRR as part of its Manhattan Transfer electrification project remained in the North River Tunnels after conversion to catenary operation. The third rail was used to supply power to MOW trains. It turned out these trains were the last bastion for two traction classics. They were the initially the responsibility of the remaining DD1's. Upon retirement of the last DD1, a former NYC T-motor was transferred to NYP for this operation. During the 70's, you could often spot the T-motor and its train sitting on a siding just west of NYP.

Bob

Bob, I know it is still physically in the tunnels, however as you point out it has not been used for years and to make it operational it would have to be completely redone or refurbished. Given the lack of money being spent to upgrade the Northeast Corridor infrastructure I seriously doubt that would ever happen. I'm just hoping the Portal Bridge stays with us for the rest of my commuting time into NYC. Regards, Jerry

Jerry,

Fascinating story on the dual power locomotives. It would be interesting to see how this project progresses considering the design constraints.

Thanks for sharing!

Lots of great information.

NJT certainly had no shortage of historic G's on its roster. Here's one of my shots of the infamous 4876 long after it crashed into Washington Union Station.

www.rr-fallenflags.org/njdot/njt4876arc.jpg

Perth Amboy - 7/11/83....the end was just a few months away.

Regards,

Bob

It looks so sad....

Hi, Bill.

Is this better?

www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr4877crc.jpg

Elizabeth - 7/15/82

Bob

Bill,

If you think the 4876 looked bad in 1983, you really don't want to see what it looks like today in Baltimore. What was one of the more 'storied' road numbers of the fleet is rotting away and covered with graffiti. I realize that the B&O museum has many, many important projects, but if someone doesn't save the 4876 soon, it will end up next in line for scrapping. Really a shame as it even looked better good doing basement time in Union Station, DC in 1953!

Bob thanks for your photos. Had I been a few years older, I would have loved to document these motors at their end of service.

Jonathan:

That's unfortunate news regarding the current condition of the 4876. The same sad state of affairs has befallen the 4879. Regrettably, it may have already reached the point at which restoration is no longer an option. As I mentioned above, the URHS has designated the locomotive for disposition but there doesn't appear to be much interest in it due to its extensive deterioration.

I'll post more photos. I have to get more of my slides scanned into the computer.

Bob

Bob thats a bit better looking!

The dim headlights and flat black paint close up just give a pathetic impression. A ghost of its former self, heading for the graveyard...

Bill,

Hate to throw this out, since its not quite Halloween, but here is the scary more recent picture of the 4876. Wonder what the cost would be to purchase it and store it indoors to at least keep it in its current condition?

When Amtrak retired its G's, they were offered for sale at a delivered price from Wilmington of $5000 each. The stated price was not much higher than some Lionel G's at the time. Sounds like a great deal, right? A group of us well intentioned young railfans hashed over the possibility of pooling our money to purchase one. We even got to the point of discussing specific road numbers as the anticipation grew. Once we got serious and calculated the anticipated expenses associated with the care and feeding of the beast, it was decided these things are not intended for ownership by private individuals of limited means so we passed.

Bob

Johnathan, This might be a little off topic and forgive me if I have asked about this before. I have a Williams Scale GG-1. Could this be upgraded to Proto 2 DCS system? It runs great as is but the horn went bad. Ray

Bob,

I would imagine that remediation of the PCBs alone would break your bank several times over....

SPMan,

Yes you could. Although you would have to spend extra to get the MTH working pantographs and I am not sure if they will mount in the Williams.

But you could surely get sound, lights, couplers and motor control.

quote:

Originally posted by SPMan:
Johnathan, This might be a little off topic and forgive me if I have asked about this before. I have a Williams Scale GG-1. Could this be upgraded to Proto 2 DCS system? It runs great as is but the horn went bad. Ray

Ray,

You certainly could do that upgrade. The first PS-2 GG1's by MTH did not have the automatic pantograph function (neither does my first release P5a for that matter). The motors are essentially the same.

The difference on the inside of the MTH vs. the Williams is that there are metal contactors on the base plate that power LED lights for the markers. You would have to wire that separately. Also, you would need to change out to a different headlight as the Williams version simply has the 18v AC bulbs on each end.

It really isn't that hard a conversion in the end though. As to the marker lights, neither MTH or Williams have the correct colors. PRR standard practice was red front and rear and amber on the side.

I'm still deciding which route to go. I might simply do the TMCC / EOB / sound route since it is a little more universal, but the PS-2 route is certainly a possibility as I have a lot of non-GG1 PS-2 electrics!

quote:

Originally posted by CNJ 3676:
Jonathan:

That's unfortunate news regarding the current condition of the 4876. The same sad state of affairs has befallen the 4879. Regrettably, it may have already reached the point at which restoration is no longer an option. As I mentioned above, the URHS has designated the locomotive for disposition but there doesn't appear to be much interest in it due to its extensive deterioration.

I'll post more photos. I have to get more of my slides scanned into the computer.

Bob

Bob,

I just did a little research and it appears that pretty soon after the photo I posted was done (circa 2006), the B&O museum staff moved it out of the yard and onto the property and have started some work on it. Speculation was either for diposition elsewhere or for restoration at the Musuem since there is no affiliation with the CSX and they are expanding the collection beyond CSX predecessor roads.

Could this be a hint of good news?

Not to beat all 8000 peak operating horsepower to death, but here are some images from Strasburg taken at the beginning of this month.


A flat light documentation shot of the current condition of 'Rivets' 4800. Not in great shape, but not in terrible shape either. Note that it has a new coat of Brunswick Green on but is sans stripes.


A close of the keystone on the 4935.


Trying to replicate the shot with my Williams glossy 4935. I should have bounced some flash off to get the sheen more like the prototype!


A rerun from this weeks weekend photo forum, but my favorite shot of the trip framing the G with an E2 and a D16. I also like the duplicity of the not quite complete 'Pennsylvania' in the image.

Some new additions to my GG1 roster as of late:


A 'project' Weaver 4876. It's got a few scratches, but really only needed new pantographs. It is a great runner, but no sound (thankfully considering how bad the original Weaver horn was).


The latest G to come on line. MTH 4892 out of the East Wind set. I was lucky to find the loco sans the cars (I've given up on anything less than 20" for PRR cars unless they are MP54s.). I must say that compared to my CR 4840 of 2005 vintage, there have been some improvements on the model and the paint is flawless. With a new sound set, MTH is poised to give Lionel a run for their money on the JLC version, especially considering how Lionel does not seem to be capitalizing on theirs much these days. Another 4866 Silver? At least do the 4872 so there is a different road number on it!

Does anyone have some pics of Williams scale GG1? I would like to pick one of these up because of the price and everyone seems to love Williams.

PRRran,

I really am a fan of the Williams models. Look through the whole thread and you will see several. I have the one that Craig posted, a 4935 5 stripe green and another 4935 that is much darker with True Sounds.

I will say the for pulling the MTH and Lionel are at the top. The Weaver is very good, and the Williams, while still good is least powerful. The plastic carbody is the difference. However, on level grades, it's not an issue and on inclines, I've double headed mine in coventional and then the issue is gone!

Bachmann has also done us a favor and made sure all the current releases have prototypical numbers for the paint scheme. That matters to rivet counters like me ...