Sunset Models EMD GP30

Since there are not many reservations for the GP30’s.Why not Alco RS3’s

Hi @MR-150

Someone posed this question regarding RS3s to Scott Mann (Sunset owner) when he was a guest on O Scale Central Online meeting several months ago and Scott Mann said that he did not believe that there was a large enough market for a new RS3 model given all the other RS3s already on the market, e.g. Atlas O Trainman, old Weaver, MTH, and Lionel.  Yes, Scott was aware of the scale dimensions not accurate on some of the models currently on the market.

You have to remember that for an injection molded model to be successful, you almost need to have equally aggressive participation from the 2-Rail / 3-Rail modelers and given the amount RS3 models already available in the 3-Rail market there is a low likelihood that you will get that much support from the 3-Rail crowd.   

Also remember that any of these new Sunset models regardless of being a GP30 or an RS3 will be approaching the $800 price point.  For the GP30, there are already some nice versions available from Lionel and MTH at a much lower price point, e.g. ~$500 or less.  Some of these 3-Rail GP30s even come with better electronic packages, IMHO, at this lower price point.  This really puts the ownness on the 2-Rail modelers to try to reach the minimum numbers needed and, right now, the 2-Railers just do not have enough volume to carry most models, especially the more modern era models.

Therefore, if you are even thinking of another model, maybe the Alco RS11, for example, (which is a very popular model that is not readily available in 2-Rail (other than some brass versions - some of which are very pricey) kind of suffers the same stigma as the RS3 and GP30 in that there are already decent 3-Rail versions on the market from Lionel/MTH at a much lower price point.  Again, this RS11 model would require 2-Railers to carry the lion's share of the reservations.

Unfortunately, for models like the GP30, RS3, RS11 to be built by Sunset with a predominant 2-Rail reservation proportion that yields lower overall reservation numbers, you are going to need to shift to a much higher price point, e.g. the Sunset Krauss Maffei model was a good example of a low volume product but came with a significantly higher price point of around $1500 ea.  This is not something that Sunset or us modelers seems to have any interest in pursuing at this time because as you raise the prices the number of reservations falls exponentially to the point where you still cannot intersect reservation numbers with required tooling and profit revenue.

These are just some of the things to think about when recommending models to be built by Sunset.  It is not just a model that would sell well from a 2-Rail perspective, it also takes an equally high interest from 3-Railers in order to reach the minimum quantities to justify making expensive plastic injection mold tooling.

Scott Kay

@Scott Kay posted:

Hi @MR-150

Someone posed this question regarding RS3s to Scott Mann (Sunset owner) when he was a guest on O Scale Central Online meeting several months ago and Scott Mann said that he did not believe that there was a large enough market for a new RS3 model given all the other RS3s already on the market, e.g. Atlas O Trainman, old Weaver, MTH, and Lionel.  Yes, Scott was aware of the scale dimensions not accurate on some of the models currently on the market.

You have to remember that for an injection molded model to be successful, you almost need to have equally aggressive participation from the 2-Rail / 3-Rail modelers and given the amount RS3 models already available in the 3-Rail market there is a low likelihood that you will get that much support from the 3-Rail crowd.   

Also remember that any of these new Sunset models regardless of being a GP30 or an RS3 will be approaching the $800 price point.  For the GP30, there are already some nice versions available from Lionel and MTH at a much lower price point, e.g. ~$500 or less.  Some of these 3-Rail GP30s even come with better electronic packages, IMHO, at this lower price point.  This really puts the ownness on the 2-Rail modelers to try to reach the minimum numbers needed and, right now, the 2-Railers just do not have enough volume to carry most models, especially the more modern era models.

Therefore, if you are even thinking of another model, maybe the Alco RS11, for example, (which is a very popular model that is not readily available in 2-Rail (other than some brass versions - some of which are very pricey) kind of suffers the same stigma as the RS3 and GP30 in that there are already decent 3-Rail versions on the market from Lionel/MTH at a much lower price point.  Again, this RS11 model would require 2-Railers to carry the lying share of the reservations.

Unfortunately, for models like the GP30, RS3, RS11 to be built by Sunset with a predominant 2-Rail reservation proportion that yields lower overall reservation numbers, you are going to need to shift to a much higher price point, e.g. the Sunset Krauss Maffei model was a good example of a low volume product but came with a significantly higher price point of around $1500 ea.  This is not something that Sunset or us modelers seems to have any interest in pursuing at this time because as you raise the prices the number of reservations falls exponentially to the point where you still cannot intersect reservation numbers with required tooling and profit revenue.

These are just some of the things to think about when recommending models to be built by Sunset.  It is not just a model that would sell well from a 2-Rail perspective, it also takes an equally high interest from 3-Railers in order to reach the minimum quantities to justify making expensive plastic injection mold tooling.

Scott Kay

Thank you for explaining why 3rd Rail will not do an Alco RS3.I  am a 3 railer and I belong to Hi Rail Scale Modular club. Yes I know Atlas MTH Lionel and Weaver have done Alco RS3. Weaver is the only one who had true scale dimensions and who knows what happened to their dies.I have 7 3rd rail diesel locomotives. I love there scale look. The MTH Atlas and Lionel Alco RS3 locomotive are almost toy like.I really like my 3rd rail locomotives and always hoped Scott would come through,I understand now .Again thanks

If this forum is a decent gauge, a scale RS-3 is the number one requested model by a long shot.

I don't buy the argument that an RS-3 wouldn't sell well because other models exist - there's three competitor models on the market, which is the same number of competing models as the GP30 (Lionel, MTH, and Williams/Bachmann). Using that logic the GP30 shouldn't have been considered either.

The difference is the RS-3 competition is all sub-par models while the GP30 competition all have excellent scale models already. For RS-3s, the Weaver shell is scale sized but not well detailed and is out of production, the MTH version isn't scale and looks weird with flattened ends, and the Atlas O version isn't scale and has squinty cab windows. For GP30s, the Lionel and MTH models are both highly detailed with see-through grills, separately applied grab irons and details, and fully command control equipped. The Williams GP30 is also scale and highly detailed, but doesn't have TMCC or DCS command control.

I hope the Sunset GP30s get made for those who want them, but I was scratching my head when they were announced because the market is saturated with them. The people demand a scale RS-3 instead, and I would reserve 3 or 4 off the bat.

My apologies for de-railing the thread further (pun intended).

~Chris

Hi @C.Vigs

I did bring up the whole presence of nicer 3-Rail GP30's (at a lower price point, no less) already on market to Scott Mann via an email response to his requests for feedback when he started floating around the idea of GP30's prior to the formal announcement, so Scott was fully aware of this existing 3-Rail GP30 competition.  From his email response to my email, the GP30 still went forward because Scott really wanted to announce something a little more on the "modern" side but didn't want to go too modern, e.g. GP40 -2 or a modern GE (by this time Scott had already nixed the previously announced remake of the C44-9W since that had a very poor reservation rate) and he felt that the GP30 was a good balance between the early diesel, e.g. F / E units, GP 7/9s and the modern 2nd/3rd generation EMD / GE diesels.  I have two GP30s reserved myself.

As for getting him to give the RS3 a second look, I recommend that you and any other RS3 advocates email him (contact info on the Sunset web page) to express your interest in RS3s because he seemed pretty set against doing them in the O Scale Central Online question about doing them.  Maybe he would be more likely to give them a second look given that the GP30 reservations are not doing that well. 

Scott

As for the 2-rail GP30, I already have two of the NJ Custom Brass ones and they are just fine. Otherwise I would consider a Sunset one.

@Scott Kay posted:

Hi @MR-150

Someone posed this question regarding RS3s to Scott Mann (Sunset owner) when he was a guest on O Scale Central Online meeting several months ago and Scott Mann said that he did not believe that there was a large enough market for a new RS3 model given all the other RS3s already on the market, e.g. Atlas O Trainman, old Weaver, MTH, and Lionel.  Yes, Scott was aware of the scale dimensions not accurate on some of the models currently on the market.

You have to remember that for an injection molded model to be successful, you almost need to have equally aggressive participation from the 2-Rail / 3-Rail modelers and given the amount RS3 models already available in the 3-Rail market there is a low likelihood that you will get that much support from the 3-Rail crowd.  

These are just some of the things to think about when recommending models to be built by Sunset.  It is not just a model that would sell well from a 2-Rail perspective, it also takes an equally high interest from 3-Railers in order to reach the minimum quantities to justify making expensive plastic injection mold tooling.

Scott Kay

With 30+ years of working in a sales and marketing career, I believe you'll never know what the true demand is until you present the opportunity!  No, I've never worked in the model train business--and maybe Scott just has a feel for things like this--but unless I'm missing something, it would cost next to nothing to put the RS3's (and six-axle RSD4' and 5's) up for pre-ordering to see what happens.

No offense whatsoever to the Lionel Traditional, Atlas Trainman, MTH RailKing, Weaver and K-Line RS3's out there...they all serve a purpose for sure!  However, IMO, none of the RS3's mentioned above are accurate models in terms of scale size and shape, and they all lack the fine scale details we've become accustomed to on Lionel Legacy, MTH Premier and Atlas Master locomotives. Not having a higher-end RS3 is such an obvious "hole" in the O-gauge/scale locomotive arena.

We all KNOW Scott would make an outstanding accurate model, and my gut tells me there would be demand for it from both 2-rail and 3-rail modelers.  Unfortunately, we will never know until it's actually offered.

The fact that it hasn't been offered yet makes me think there's more to the story here.  This project would undoubtedly be a major undertaking given all the production Phases, variations and road-specific details...and maybe Scott simply doesn't want the headache.  However, with the total # of RS3's, RSD4's and RSD5's produced by ALCO, and all the railroads that owned them, Scott would be able to offer multiple production runs and possibly address major Phase changes with each run.

@MR-150 posted:

Since there are not many reservations for the GP30’s.Why not Alco RS3’s

Sunset will ultimately produce whatever will sell in quantity.   If there are actually numbers to support an RS3, both can be produced.  It's isn't a matter of either/or

Those interested in GP30's, please reserve.  We can move on to GP38-2's and GP40 after that.  If someone wants to pound the pavement and secure enough interest in RS3's as well, I'm sure they'd consider the run.  If you drop the orders as well as research information in their lap, it might be hard to say NO.  For now, let's make the GP30's work.  We can continue to work with Sunset to make detail corrections etc., but that should ultimately be a different subject.

If the GP30 tanks then a GP38/40 would be something to consider since they share a lot of the same components like frame, handrails, pilots and trucks. There would be no shortage of road names available, too. I have 2 GP30's reserved and that's enough since I got 4 SD40-2's.

By the responses here, it seems as if an RS3 has more interest than a GP30. That's part of the problem as there doesn't seem to be a consensus on any specific model. For the record, I would probably get a couple of Western Maryland RS3's (Fireball or Speed Lettering) if the GP30 fails to meet the minimum number of reservations.

The new GP30 needs to be mentioned more clearly and more often in e-mails and advertising.

Andrew

I suppose I will need to place a reservation for a PRR one.  My challenge is while I'm willing to push the envelope on the PRR era I model, this one pushes it just a bit too far.  I'd really be more interested in a Conrail one painted to match the one in Pennsylvania State Railroad Museum or even perhaps a PC one to stencil CR on.

I'm taking Names and Email addresses for those interested in a Milwaukee Road GP30, as delivered without billboard lettering and with Alco trucks.  I'm sending the list to Sunset next week., hoping they'll add it to their lineup where people can formally order from Sunset's website.

If interested email TwoRailOscale at Yahoo dot COM

What are the minimum curves for these? Most of my layout is at least O-72, but I've been looking for something that can run on my O-54 section of the layout.

Sean,

4 axle 3rd Rail diesels will negotiate an 054 curve in 3 rail.  Technically, all the 3 rail diesels by 3rd Rail are engineered to negotiate 054 curves. 

If it goes forward, it should be a very nice project.  In spite of my comment of its appropriateness for my modeling interests above, I have always liked the appearance of the humped back geep.  ATSF and later BNSF ran them fairly late here in Phoenix in local service, which was fun to see.

Jonathan,

CP is on the list of GP30 candidates, but without an illustration. Do you know which paint scheme is being considered?

Thanks

@Juniatabilt posted:

Jonathan,

CP is on the list of GP30 candidates, but without an illustration. Do you know which paint scheme is being considered?

Thanks

I haven't talked with Scott on the details, but I would suspect that the as delivered gray and maroon scheme will be the one we do on this run.  It tends to sell better in the Canadian Market versus the CP Rail scheme, but that is only from my experience of working on the Canadian many, many years ago where the overwhelming number of sets were in the original paint scheme.  Perhaps an apples to oranges comparison?

If there is a strong feeling either way, it still early enough to accommodate it, but we won't do both schemes in the same run.

Good to know, Jonathan.  Thanks!

I used to watch the local freights on the Santa Fe line near my house. My dad and I became friends with the engineer who worked the route, and sometimes he would let us ride in the cab while he worked. I was too young to remember whether it was a GP30 or a GP35, but I have fond memories of the design.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Sean,

4 axle 3rd Rail diesels will negotiate an 054 curve in 3 rail.  Technically, all the 3 rail diesels by 3rd Rail are engineered to negotiate 054 curves.

If it goes forward, it should be a very nice project.  In spite of my comment of its appropriateness for my modeling interests above, I have always liked the appearance of the humped back geep.  ATSF and later BNSF ran them fairly late here in Phoenix in local service, which was fun to see.

Most of the later BNSF units along with GP35's were remanufactured into GP39R or some variant.