The Future of the DSC system??? Atlas wrote on its Website:

You may be reading too much into this.  It says that Atlas has the option to sell DCS components.  It does not say that Atlas has the option to manufacture and sell DCS components.  I interpret the statement to mean that Atlas could be a sales outlet for the new DCS company coming out of MTH's closure, if they so choose.

Bob...that's the way I understand it...FWIW.

@John C. posted:

The Future of the DSC system???  Atlas wrote on its Website:  The Future of the DSC system???  Atlas wrote on its Website:

Atlas has also acquired a license for the MTH Proto-Sound 3 Sound & Control Electronics Boards, which adds realistic sounds to locomotives and also allows control via DCS (Digital Command System). Part of the license will give Atlas the option to sell DCS components as well.

I hope, no check that, I pray that this means ultimately ATLAS O manufactures a TIU that has the capability to being operated via hand-held remotes or wireless.

There are numerous people, including me, who prefer the remote over a telephone or tablet.

I'm sick and tired of the outlandish prices for DCS being asked on Ebay.

I have a fleet of nothing but DCS locos.  Fortunately, I have multiple TIUs and Remotes.  HOWEVER, I will buying Legacy Command in the future if I don't receive confirmation from Atlas O that they indeed will produce DCS Components--a TIU that can be "reached" by a hand-held remote.

Hasn't MTH ended production of TIU's that are "Handheld Remote" compatible? I think the catalog only shows WiFi compatible TIU's. As mentioned above I read it that Atlas will have the ability to use/and or sell DCS products, not manufacture them.

Curious, do any of the large DCC manufacturers such as NCE or Digitrax use WiFi versus remotes? (I'm not sure Lenz ever made a remote, didn’t you have to use an adapter in conjunction with a cordless phone which only allowed really limited features?)

@BobbyD posted:

I'm not sure Lenz ever made a remote

Lenz made two different remotes, one with a large knob to adjust speed and one with push buttons to increase and decrease speed.  Lenz was a wired plug-in system only, the throttles did not have radio capability.

IMO, Atlas will have access to DCS locomotive modules, like Sunset 3rd rail does ERR (TMCC). That is, they can install DCS in their locomotives and sell kits for retrofit. Sunset 3rd rail doesn't sell control equipment and nor will Atlas.

It will be great to finally actually know versus speculation.  I wish Atlas would stop being so secretive and announce their plan in regard to DCS.  I may have purchased my last DCS anything.

Perhaps Atlas will have some news at the "Virtual York" being hosted this week by Trainworld?

@John C. posted:

It will be great to finally actually know versus speculation.  I wish Atlas would stop being so secretive and announce their plan in regard to DCS.  I may have purchased my last DCS anything.

No secret. Keith summed it up. Atlas is using DCS made by the MTH spinoff. Any new products will come from there, not Atlas itself.

Pete

@John C. posted:

It will be great to finally actually know versus speculation.  I wish Atlas would stop being so secretive and announce their plan in regard to DCS.  I may have purchased my last DCS anything.

I suspect the reason is to encourage threads like this.  The more people talk about what might happen and speculate, the more "advertising" they get.

Also, maybe the plans are still "in the works", my sense is the DCS house is being constructed on a beach with a sand foundation.  If the tide comes in too far, things could change in a hurry.

It's interesting to note how speculation of short supply is driving prices of DCS equipment sky high. Not a vote of confidence within the market for a future steady supply of DCS components.

I haven't bought any MTH engines or electronics since the announcement.  The exception being I still am buying boards for repairs.

It's pretty silly to avoid MTH products just because they have DCS.  If they offer a model that Lionel doesn't, you can usually buy it + ERR components and retrofit for TMCC operation for the same price as what Lionel charges for their equivalent models.

@Bob posted:

Lenz made two different remotes, one with a large knob to adjust speed and one with push buttons to increase and decrease speed.  Lenz was a wired plug-in system only, the throttles did not have radio capability.

I meant wireless remotes Bob. Many friends went with NCE when converting from DC because of that. They didn't like being corded all the time to control the locomotives.

@rplst8 posted:

It's pretty silly to avoid MTH products just because they have DCS.  If they offer a model that Lionel doesn't, you can usually buy it + ERR components and retrofit for TMCC operation for the same price as what Lionel charges for their equivalent models.

I only run TMCC but have quite a few MTH Diesel locomotives on my railroad.  For years I've been gutting the DCS components and replacing with ERR stuff.  Usually the DCS boards, couplers, speaker, lights, etc. can be sold for about what the ERR replacements cost.

@rplst8 posted:

It's pretty silly to avoid MTH products just because they have DCS.  If they offer a model that Lionel doesn't, you can usually buy it + ERR components and retrofit for TMCC operation for the same price as what Lionel charges for their equivalent models.

That has nothing to do with me avoiding them, I'm simply waiting out the absurd prices until sanity returns to the market.

I don't do DCC, but simply from reading model railroader wireless remotes and now wifi based apps on phones are being offered by a number of the manufacturers. I suspect tethered operation, if they still offer it (and I really don't know) is an anachronism at this point.

@rplst8 posted:

It's pretty silly to avoid MTH products just because they have DCS.  If they offer a model that Lionel doesn't, you can usually buy it + ERR components and retrofit for TMCC operation for the same price as what Lionel charges for their equivalent models.

In principle, I am not opposed to buying locomotives from other brands. However, I really don’t want to have the hassle of having two different operating systems on my layout. So for me, it’s Legacy, the Lionchief, then TMCC.  I like simple.
So for me to buy an MTH locomotive at this point:

- Got to meet minimum curve, O-36

- Road name needs to be a line that runs in Canada or New England

- Lionel didn’t make one

- must weigh the extra cost of installing TMCC system in the locomotive on top of the cost of buying it versus just waiting for Lionel to do one.

I am willing to buy an Atlas locomotive that meets the above criteria as long as they offer it in TMCC. If they discontinue to offer TMCC locomotives and only offer DCS, I will pass and wait for Lionel. There are plenty of other locomotives out there for me to purchase in the meantime as I  have a list of locomotives that have already been made with Legacy that I am looking for.

This is rapidly becoming a moot point anyway with MTH ending production very soon.

Okay, my take on this:

1)For whatever reasons, Atlas is doing what it did with TMCC, it is licensing the right to use DCS in its engines (the board set), the way it does TMCC. Along with that, it looks like they will have the right to sell boards for repair (I don't know if Atlas will also sell proto 3 upgrade kits). They didn't get a license to manufacturer the boards, controllers, etc.

2)Will Atlas stop TMCC support? I suspect that will be answered by how offering DCS on their engines is received. If it looks like it boosts their overall sales ie people who run DCS now will buy Atlas, then they may support both, but it for example it looks like they are selling a lot of dcs and few TMCC, they may drop TMCC. They also could phase out TMCC, new engines will have DCS. Given that DCS is much more advanced then TMCC, I suspect that is the future, but that is just me.

3)If you really want to speculate, could Atlas also possibly have negotiated with MTH (trains) to manufacture some of their catalog? Yes, I know, there is the issue of tooling, but I seem to recall MTH owned their factory in China, which meant the tooling would be theirs, so in theory they could sell the tooling to Atlas. I make no claims for this, it is pure speculation.

In a wild world Atlas would buy MTH's factory and continue production. Doing that Atlas could consolidate building their own line and MTH in the same factory they now own, they wouldn't be at the mercy of a contract manufacturer the way they are today. This is unlikely, given the costs involved would Atlas have the capital or desire to do this?

@bigkid posted:

Okay, my take on this:

1)For whatever reasons, Atlas is doing what it did with TMCC, it is licensing the right to use DCS in its engines (the board set), the way it does TMCC. Along with that, it looks like they will have the right to sell boards for repair (I don't know if Atlas will also sell proto 3 upgrade kits). They didn't get a license to manufacturer the boards, controllers, etc.

2)Will Atlas stop TMCC support? I suspect that will be answered by how offering DCS on their engines is received. If it looks like it boosts their overall sales ie people who run DCS now will buy Atlas, then they may support both, but it for example it looks like they are selling a lot of dcs and few TMCC, they may drop TMCC. They also could phase out TMCC, new engines will have DCS. Given that DCS is much more advanced then TMCC, I suspect that is the future, but that is just me.

3)If you really want to speculate, could Atlas also possibly have negotiated with MTH (trains) to manufacture some of their catalog? Yes, I know, there is the issue of tooling, but I seem to recall MTH owned their factory in China, which meant the tooling would be theirs, so in theory they could sell the tooling to Atlas. I make no claims for this, it is pure speculation.

In a wild world Atlas would buy MTH's factory and continue production. Doing that Atlas could consolidate building their own line and MTH in the same factory they now own, they wouldn't be at the mercy of a contract manufacturer the way they are today. This is unlikely, given the costs involved would Atlas have the capital or desire to do this?

Actually just saw where our esteemed publisher posted on this back in March, that Atlas had bought the rights to some of MTH's rolling stock, engines and accessories.....

I really doubt that Atlas will phase out TMCC. Why? Because it has one advantage: I can run Atlas TMCC locomotives with my CAB-1, CAB-1L or my CAB2- Legacy systems. Existing Atlas customers have been purchasing their locomotives and running them with TMCC remotes for years.

@rplst8 posted:

It's pretty silly to avoid MTH products just because they have DCS.  If they offer a model that Lionel doesn't, you can usually buy it + ERR components and retrofit for TMCC operation for the same price as what Lionel charges for their equivalent models.

Admittedly, I only buy Legacy stuff, so I’m not conversant in the pricing of MTH Premier, but this seemed off to me. I grabbed a few comparisons to satisfy my curiosity.  The most recent Legacy GP30s were only $10 more than the most recent Premiers. Recent Legacy F3s (two powered units) were actually $60 less expensive than two Premier powered F3 A units. On the flip side, the Legacy SD70ACe’s do run $80 more than a similar Premier unit.  All of these are MSRPs from the catalog.

Even in the case of the biggest price difference (SD70ACe), it seems unlikely that a set of ERR components could be had for the difference, especially if it’s not a DIY install.  The boards themselves (command and sounds) have to run about $200, right?  

Like I said, I’m not very familiar with MTH pricing and know even less about the price of ERR products, but it seems unlikely to me that one could buy a new MTH Premier engine and a set of ERR components for the price of the Legacy equivalent, and certainly not if they had to pay someone to install the boards. Again, admittedly, I only grabbed a few samples out of recent catalogs and I could be missing some glaring examples to the contrary.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Admittedly, I only buy Legacy stuff, so I’m not conversant in the pricing of MTH Premier, but this seemed off to me. I grabbed a few comparisons to satisfy my curiosity.  The most recent Legacy GP30s were only $10 more than the most recent Premiers. Recent Legacy F3s (two powered units) were actually $60 less expensive than two Premier powered F3 A units. On the flip side, the Legacy SD70ACe’s do run $80 more than a similar Premier unit.  All of these are MSRPs from the catalog.

Even in the case of the biggest price difference (SD70ACe), it seems unlikely that a set of ERR components could be had for the difference, especially if it’s not a DIY install.  The boards themselves (command and sounds) have to run about $200, right?  

Like I said, I’m not very familiar with MTH pricing and know even less about the price of ERR products, but it seems unlikely to me that one could buy a new MTH Premier engine and a set of ERR components for the price of the Legacy equivalent, and certainly not if they had to pay someone to install the boards. Again, admittedly, I only grabbed a few samples out of recent catalogs and I could be missing some glaring examples to the contrary.

I only buy Legacy now too (with some LionChief exceptions).  No more postwar, no more old TMCC, just Legacy. Now that Legacy has been out for a while, I have plenty of older Legacy locomotives to hunt down. Between catching up with those older Legacy locomotives and the new ones Lionel is producing, I will never have a month were I have nothing to buy.  I don't have the space or the need for DCS locomotives on top of all those locomotives.  Why add the trouble of adding another Command and Control System just so I can say "I buy from all manufactures"?   To be clear though, my decision to stick with Legacy is firmly planted in practical considerations.

@Madockawando posted:

I only buy Legacy now too (with some LionChief exceptions).  No more postwar, no more old TMCC, just Legacy. Now that Legacy has been out for a while, I have plenty of older Legacy locomotives to hunt down. Between catching up with those older Legacy locomotives and the new ones Lionel is producing, I will never have a month were I have nothing to buy.  I don't have the space or the need for DCS locomotives on top of all those locomotives.  Why add the trouble of adding another Command and Control System just so I can say "I buy from all manufactures"?   To be clear though, my decision to stick with Legacy is firmly planted in practical considerations.

Then why you do constantly post this information on various threads were guys are discussing the future of DCS? You admit  in your own words you have no interest in the DCS system or a DCS locomotive.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Then why you do constantly post this information on various threads were guys are discussing the future of DCS? You admit  in your own words you have no interest in the DCS system or a DCS locomotive.

????  Okay.....

@Madockawando posted:

????  Okay.....

The title of this thread is “The future of the DCS system” which is something  you have said time and time again that you have no interest in and will never buy. How is telling this to the guys who are interested in the DCS system helpful?

@Hudson J1e posted:

The title of this thread is “The future of the DCS system” which is something  you have said time and time again that you have no interest in and will never buy. How is telling this to the guys who are interested in the DCS system helpful?

That's very interesting....

I think some of you are missing the fact that DCS Diesel sound is just as good as Legacy sound boards.  Atlas can't really compete against Lionel on Diesel engines with the sound sets they are delivering now in the ERR boards.  Regardless of your like of TMCC over DCS the sound ability alone could easily have Atlas wanting to phase out TMCC.

Ever since I integrated DCS into my TMCC/Legacy layout I've been very happy not being limited to just one system.  I was hesitant of DCS for years.  It was a big mistake waiting so long to jump in.

@MichRR714 posted:

I think some of you are missing the fact that DCS Diesel sound is just as good as Legacy sound boards.  Atlas can't really compete against Lionel on Diesel engines with the sound sets they are delivering now in the ERR boards.  Regardless of your like of TMCC over DCS the sound ability alone could easily have Atlas wanting to phase out TMCC.

Well, if Atlas phases out TMCC, it will be interesting to see how their long term customers who have been using Atlas TMCC locomotives for years respond.  I think an earlier poster has it right: most likely Atlas will offer both and wait and see how the market shakes out and how their customers respond. Will they favor either system? We will see, however given Atlas's low rate of production, it could take a while to get a workable sample size.

MichRR714 I think over the years MTH improved the sound on their locomotives and in the coming years the sounds sets will continue to be improved. This will not happen with TMCC since Atlas’ license limits them to certain sound sets. This is why I think you’re right and Atlas may drop TMCC but time will tell.

@Hudson J1e posted:

MichRR714 I think over the years MTH improved the sound on their locomotives and in the coming years the sounds sets will continue to be improved. This will not happen with TMCC since Atlas’ license limits them to certain sound sets. This is why I think you’re right and Atlas may drop TMCC but time will tell.

Well it is interesting to note that Atlas hasn't announced that they are dropping TMCC.  How come? I mean, if they were going to do it, why not just make that announcement at the same they announced that they now have a license offer DCS?

Atlas is making a business decision to hedge their bets here.  They are going to await and see what their customers want.

@rplst8 posted:

It's pretty silly to avoid MTH products just because they have DCS.  If they offer a model that Lionel doesn't, you can usually buy it + ERR components and retrofit for TMCC operation for the same price as what Lionel charges for their equivalent models.

This statement is not even close to correct, in many cases. Example: new GP9 engines:

Lionel Legacy GP9 street price:  $450

MTH Premier GP9 street price: $430  (Only $30 less!)

ERR Cruise Commander: $130

ERR GP9 Sound Commander: $95

Total cost to convert MTH GP9: $655 (NOT INCLUDING any labor/shipping if someone else installs the ERR items)

Difference: MTH GP9 will cost $205 more than the Lionel GP9!

And a lot more than that if the buyer has a third party do the ERR components installation!

And also add the shipping cost of the ERR components.

Bottom line: You're going to spend probably at least to $800 for the MTH engine with ERR conversion, if you have someone do the installation.

@breezinup posted:

This statement is not even close, in many cases. Example: new GP9 engines:

Lionel Legacy GP9 street price:  $450

MTH Premier GP9 street price: $430  (Only $30 less!)

ERR Cruise Commander: $130

ERR GP9 Sound Commander: $95

Total cost to convert MTH GP9: $655 (NOT INCLUDING any labor/shipping if someone else installs the ERR items)

Difference: MTH GP9 will cost $205 more than the Lionel GP9!

And a lot more than that if buyer has a third party do the ERR components installation!

An excellent observation. It just isn’t practical

@Madockawando posted:

Well it is interesting to note that Atlas hasn't announced that they are dropping TMCC.  How come? I mean, if they were going to do it, why not just make that announcement at the same they announced that they now have a license offer DCS?

Atlas is making a business decision to hedge their bets here.  They are going to await and see what their customers want.

That’s very interesting. I never said they were definitely going to drop TMCC. Just that they “may” drop it. I wasn’t in the board meeting like you were.

Don’t forget to let Atlas know you won’t be buying any of their locomotives without TMCC. Oh wait you said you would never again buy a TMCC locomotive.

Atlas isn't going to care if you don't have DCS on your layout.  They are going to care about delivering a product that can compete with a competitor.  Having both systems is the way to go.

@MichRR714 posted:

I think some of you are missing the fact that DCS Diesel sound is just as good as Legacy sound boards.  Atlas can't really compete against Lionel on Diesel engines with the sound sets they are delivering now in the ERR boards.  Regardless of your like of TMCC over DCS the sound ability alone could easily have Atlas wanting to phase out TMCC.

Ever since I integrated DCS into my TMCC/Legacy layout I've been very happy not being limited to just one system.  I was hesitant of DCS for years.  I was a big mistake waiting so long to jump in.

I agree that many of the MTH diesels equal the sounds of Lionel Legacy.

What escapes me is why the MTH steam sounds typically lag so far behind Lionel steam.  Most of my MTH steam doesn't really compare to any of the better Legacy steam products.  Given that the steam is two-three times the typical price of diesels, why not put a little effort into better sound for the steam?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I agree that many of the MTH diesels equal the sounds of Lionel Legacy.

What escapes me is why the MTH steam sounds typically lag so far behind Lionel steam.  Most of my MTH steam doesn't really compare to any of the better Legacy steam products.  Given that the steam is two-three times the typical price of diesels, why not put a little effort into better sound for the steam?

John, I wholeheartedly agree with you on much of the earlier MTH steam.  Some of my latest Premier PS3 MTH steam is pretty decent to my ear.  Probably doesn't factor much into Atlas' calculus though since they only purchased Premier diesel tooling from MTH.

Given that lots of history remains to be written , why would Atlas publicly commit to ditching TMCC/Legacy compatible locomotives at a point in time when the future of DCS remains to be announced in detail and Atlas has no idea whether their new "Locomotives formerly known as MTH" will sell better with DCS, TMCC or both?  Who knows, they may be negotiating with Lionel to install Legacy or LionChief 2.0+ in their locomotives given that they now have some leverage.  Just as reasonable as any other wild speculations, at this point.

Speaking of the spin off DCS company:

- Do they have a website?

- Do we know who is running the company?

- Who will finance the company?

- Will there be enough new DCS locomotives sold to bring in enough funding to finance DCS upgrades? Or will they just focus on maintaining existing DCS locomotives with repair parts

- Does the DCS spin off company even have a name?

Given that MTH is supposed to cease operations next month (per their announcement) it’s amazing how much we still don’t know about this DCS company

As Jim Lovell said in “Apollo 13” : “Hey Houston, the Earth is getting pretty big in the window, we need that re-entry plan.”

@Madockawando posted:

Speaking of the spin off DCS company:

- Do they have a website?

- Do we know who is running the company?

- Who will finance the company?

- Will there be enough new DCS locomotives sold to bring in enough funding to finance DCS upgrades? Or will they just focus on maintaining existing DCS locomotives with repair parts

- Does the DCS spin off company even have a name?

Given that MTH is supposed to cease operations next month (per their announcement) it’s amazing how much we still don’t know about this DCS company

As Jim Lovell said in “Apollo 13” : “Hey Houston, the Earth is getting pretty big in the window, we need that re-entry plan.”

MTH is listed as a presenter on the Trainworld virtual York event.  Perhaps there will be some news made this week.